John 8:24, 28, 58 - Jesus Christ IS YHWH

[RLT63]

You have to stop trying to make Scripture and me say what is not being said.

By figuratively meeting Moses face to face, I did not mean they did not meet. Rather, God being Spirit does not have a body which includes a face. Of course, God who is Spirit met with Moses and Abraham and/or send Angels, Elohim, heavenly beings to convey his message, as he did with the prophets. Both prophets, like Jesus, and angels speak the word of God. It does not make them God.

John says no one has seen God. How can people meet with God, even have a meal with him but not see him ?

 

[RLT63]

“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins…Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things” (verses 24, 28. KJV)

In these two verses, Jesus says, that if we do not believe that He is “I AM”, that we will die in our sins.

Firstly, Bible Versions like the KJV, are quite wrong when they translate the Greek, “εγω ειμι”, by “I am he”. The word “he” is in italics showing that it is not in the Greek. So, why did they insert this?

Jesus uses “εγω ειμι” three times in this chapter of John’s Gospel. Twice in the above verses, and once in verse 58.

What exactly does Jesus mean, especially in verse 24, where He says, that people who did not believe that He is “εγω ειμι”, would die in their sins? This is the same as saying that these will not be saved, and end up in eternal punishment. Clearly Jesus says what He does, as a warning.

In Matthew 14, when Jesus came to His Disciples “walking on the sea” (26), and the Disciples became “troubled” by what they were seeing. Jesus reassures them by saying, “ But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid” (27). The words in English, “it is I”, are in the Greek, “εγω ειμι”, I AM!. In John chapter 18, when they came to arrest Jesus, He said to them “εγω ειμι” (5), then in verse 6 we read this response from those who heard this, “As soon then as he had said unto them, εγω ειμι, they went backward, and fell to the ground”

But, what does Jesus mean in John 8:24, by the words: “if you believe not that “εγω ειμι””?

There can be no doubt, that Jesus here, as He does in verse 58, claim for Himself Absolute Deity, that is, YHWH. For He has in mind the Words Spoken to Moses in Exodus chapter 3, where we read, “’Ehyeh ’ăsher ’ehyeh”, which is best translated from the Hebrew grammar:

“and God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM…I AM hath sent me unto you”

(Dr A Benisch; Jewish School and Family Bible, Vol. II)

“And God said unto Moses: ‘I AM THAT I AM’… I AM hath sent me unto you.’.’”

(The Holy Scriptures According to the Masoretic Text, A New Translation. The Jewish Publication Society of America. 5677-1917)

“And God said unto Moses: ‘I am that I am’… I am hath sent me unto you.’

(Hebrew-English Tanakh, The Jewish Bible, Varda Books. Jewish Publication)

The words in the Greek Version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX), is important:

“Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν”, literally, “I am the Existing One”

The Jews in Jesus’ time would have clearly understood what He was saying. In fact, in verse 59 we read, “they took up, therefore, stones that they may cast at him”. Stoning was because they supposed that Jesus was here blaspheming, by ascribing to Himself, the very Name of YHWH.

In the account of the Burning Bush in Exodus chapter 3, we read in verse 2, “And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush”. In verse 4 it says, “So when YHWH saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!””. Then, in verse 6 we read, “Moreover He said, “I am (Ἐγώ εἰμι. LXX) the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God”. Then in verse 7, “And YHWH said…”. And, 11, “But Moses said to God”. Then we have the famous Words Spoken to Moses in verse 14, “And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you”. And verse 15, Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations”. In verse 12 we read God telling Moses, “and He said, certainly I will be with you”. The words “I will be”, are the same “’Ehyeh”, used in verse 14, “I AM”.

It is very interesting that all of the above in Exodus 3, is not about God the Father as YHWH, but, “מַלְאַךְ יהוה” that is “The Angel of YHWH”, or, “Messenger of YHWH”, Who is not only a distinct Person from YHWH, as One sent by YHWH, but Himself also YHWH, and all of the Divine Names in the passage of Exodus 3. For those who honestly want to know what the Bible actually Teaches, and not rely on their own ideas of what the Bible should say. It is very clear, that there is more than One Person, Who is called YHWH, and distinct from each other. The One is the Sender, and the One is Sent, showing that they cannot be One and the same Person.

It is very clear, that what Jesus Christ does say in John 8:24, can only mean that He is claiming for Himself, to be YHWH. The evidence of Scripture is clear to this fact, but there will still be those, who oppose the Deity of Jesus Christ, who will still fight against to very Word of God, to their own destruction!

Jesus Christ cannot be YHWH, as we see that the Bible says that He IS, and be anything less than God the Father. The very Name YHWH means, Uncreated, Unchanging, Eternal. Which is true for God The Father, God the Son, and God The Holy Spirit. The Eternal, Unchanging, Triune God!

Is Jesus God? Why should I believe that Jesus is God? | GotQuestions.org

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

God is not temporal.

He is eternal.

“While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

So no.

No one has seen the eternal God literally.

@Wrangler is correct in his analysis.

WHO visited Abraham and Sarah in Genesis 18 and 19, and ate with them and walked with them, and saw then face to face?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

WHO visited Abraham and Sarah in Genesis 18 and 19, and ate with them and walked with them, and saw then face to face?

A temporal representation.

Not the eternal representation.

 

[Wrangler]

John says no one has seen God. How can people meet with God, even have a meal with him but not see him ?

Who had a meal with God?

Again, you have to stop trying to get Scripture and me to say things that are not being said. My turn to ask a question.

Do you recognize the Bible is highly figurative and how some of the passages trinitarians are taking as literal can also be interpreted figuratively? Like Deut 18:15-18 prophecies God putting his words into the mouth of one among the people = Jesus mouthing God’s words so as not to scare the people, terrified of hearing God’s own voice?

 

[Wrangler]

More RUBBISH

Just because you don't like what the Bible teaches , that Moses actually SAW and SPOKE with Yahweh, you TWIST its meaning to be "figurative"!

Pot calling kettle black. Friend, it is you who are twisting what the Bible says. Moses literally saw a burning bush. He literally saw the glory of God.

LANGUAGE USAGE: This is how people talk. I saw a miracle today = I saw God at work today = I saw God today.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

A temporal representation.

Not the eternal representation.

it is no "representation", but ACTUALLY Yahweh Who was with Abraham and Sarah!

Quit your unbiblical nonsense which is against what the Bible says.

It is clear from Genesis 18 and 19, that One of the three "men" Who visited Abraham and Sarah, is Yahweh. No where does it say that one of them "represented" Yahweh, buy was Yahweh Himself, as in Jesus Christ, which is why Jesus says in John, "Abraham rejoiced to see My Day" (John 8:56)

Abraham Rejoiced to See My Day

This is FACT and not your unbiblical FICTION!

 

[Wrangler]

it is no "representation", but ACTUALLY Yahweh Who was with Abraham and Sarah!

I’m OK with that provided one understands it was not in the flesh. God is Spirit and Jesus is flesh. Not equal.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Pot calling kettle black. Friend, it is you who are twisting what the Bible says. Moses literally saw a burning bush. He literally saw the glory of God.

LANGUAGE USAGE: This is how people talk. I saw a miracle today = I saw God at work today = I saw God today.

See Exodus 3:2, and you will see, that it was "The Messenger of Yahweh" Who Spoke to Moses from the Burning Bush

In verse 4, this Messenger is, "God called out to him from the bush"

In verse 6, this Messenger says to Moses, "Then he continued, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look at God"

In verse 7 we read of this same Messenger, "Then Yahweh said"

In verse 14, it is the Messenger in verse 2, Who says to Moses, " I am Who I am"

In verse 15, this Messenger says, "God also said to Moses, “Say this to the Israelites: The Lord, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever; this is how I am to be remembered in every generation."

In Malachi 3:1, which is about the Coming of Jesus Christ, He is called

"The Messenger of the Covenant"

Jesus Christ is YHWH, the Almighty God!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

I’m OK with that provided one understands it was not in the flesh. God is Spirit and Jesus is flesh. Not equal.

Yahweh actually ATE with Abraham and Sarah, this is what the Bible says. I care ZERO what rubbish you might say to TWIST the Truth of the Bible, because if you accept what the Bible says, your theology is finished!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Yahweh Who was with Abraham and Sarah!

It is clear from Genesis 18 and 19, that One of the three "men" Who visited Abraham and Sarah, is Yahweh

The LORD (God) is a spirit (John 4:24) and the spiritual cannot be seen (2 Corinthians 4:18).

So since we men can only see temporal things, this must have been a temporal representation of God (The LORD).

No where does it say that one of them "represented" Yahweh, buy was Yahweh Himself, as in Jesus Christ

And where does it say that it was Jesus Christ who visited Abraham?

Answer: it doesn’t.

A certain x3 doctrine is making you read into the scriptures.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

The LORD (God) is a spirit (John 4:24) and the spiritual cannot be seen (2 Corinthians 4:18).

So since we men can only see temporal things, this must have been a temporal representation of God (The LORD).



And where does it say that it was Jesus Christ who visited Abraham?

Answer: it doesn’t.

A certain x3 doctrine is making you read into the scriptures.

Since it is clear that the Father is never seen, and Jesus says in John 8:56, that Abraham was pleased that He saw Jesus, there is no doubt that Yahweh in Genesis 17-19 is Jesus Christ!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

in John 8:56, that Abraham was pleased that He saw Jesus

No it doesn’t.

It says Abraham was pleased to see his DAY.

 

[RLT63]

Who had a meal with God?

Again, you have to stop trying to get Scripture and me to say things that are not being said. My turn to ask a question.

Do you recognize the Bible is highly figurative and how some of the passages trinitarians are taking as literal can also be interpreted figuratively? Like Deut 18:15-18 prophecies God putting his words into the mouth of one among the people = Jesus mouthing God’s words so as not to scare the people, terrified of hearing God’s own voice?

Genesis 17

 

[RLT63]

No it doesn’t.

It says Abraham was pleased to see his DAY.

Genesis 17

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

No it doesn’t.

It says Abraham was pleased to see his DAY.

WHO is this Yahweh???

Yahweh appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and saw that three men stood near him. When he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said, “My lord, if now I have found favor in your sight, please don’t go away from your servant. 4 Now let a little water be fetched, wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 I will get a piece of bread so you can refresh your heart. After that you may go your way, now that you have come to your servant.”

They said, “Very well, do as you have said.”

6 Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, “Quickly prepare three seahs of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes.” 7 Abraham ran to the herd, and fetched a tender and good calf, and gave it to the servant. He hurried to dress it. 8 He took butter, milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them. He stood by them under the tree, and they ate.

9 They asked him, “Where is Sarah, your wife?”

He said, “There, in the tent.”

10 He said, “I will certainly return to you at about this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son.”

Sarah heard in the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well advanced in age. Sarah had passed the age of childbearing. 12 Sarah laughed within herself, saying, “After I have grown old will I have pleasure, my lord being old also?”

13 Yahweh said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Will I really bear a child when I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for Yahweh? At the set time I will return to you, when the season comes around, and Sarah will have a son.”

15 Then Sarah denied it, saying, “I didn’t laugh,” for she was afraid.

He said, “No, but you did laugh.”

16 The men rose up from there, and looked toward Sodom. Abraham went with them to see them on their way. 17 Yahweh said, “Will I hide from Abraham what I do, 18 since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed in him? 19 For I have known him, to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep the way of Yahweh, to do righteousness and justice; to the end that Yahweh may bring on Abraham that which he has spoken of him.” 20 Yahweh said, “Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous, 21 I will go down now, and see whether their deeds are as bad as the reports which have come to me. If not, I will know.”

22 The men turned from there, and went toward Sodom, but Abraham stood yet before Yahweh. 23 Abraham came near, and said, “Will you consume the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous within the city? Will you consume and not spare the place for the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 May it be far from you to do things like that, to kill the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be like the wicked. May that be far from you. Shouldn’t the Judge of all the earth do right?”

26 Yahweh said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place for their sake.” 27 Abraham answered, “See now, I have taken it on myself to speak to the Lord, although I am dust and ashes. 28 What if there will lack five of the fifty righteous? Will you destroy all the city for lack of five?”

He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.”

29 He spoke to him yet again, and said, “What if there are forty found there?”

He said, “I will not do it for the forty’s sake.”

30 He said, “Oh don’t let the Lord be angry, and I will speak. What if there are thirty found there?”

He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”

31 He said, “See now, I have taken it on myself to speak to the Lord. What if there are twenty found there?”

He said, “I will not destroy it for the twenty’s sake.”

32 He said, “Oh don’t let the Lord be angry, and I will speak just once more. What if ten are found there?”

He said, “I will not destroy it for the ten’s sake.”

33 Yahweh went his way as soon as he had finished communing with Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place.

WHO is this Yahweh, Who was WITH Abraham and Sarah, and actually ATE and DRANK with them???

In Genesis 19:24 it says:

“And the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire, from the Lord, out of heaven” (Leeser Version)

“From the Lord”, is “מֵאֵת מִן”, literally, “from with Yahweh”, as someone Who is distinct.

One “Yahweh” was on earth with Abraham and Sarah, and He calls on another “Yahweh”, Who is in heaven, to take action against Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Jewish Targum Neofiti reads:

“And the Memra (Word) of the Lord made sulphur and fire come down upon Sodom and Gomorrah from before the Lord, from the heavens”

The Jerusalem Targum reads:

“And the Word of the Lord Himself had made to descend upon the people of Sedom and Amorah showers of favour, that they might work repentance from their wicked works. But when they saw the showers of favour, they said, So, our wicked works are not manifest before Him. He turned (then), and caused to descend upon them bitumen and fire from before the Lord from the heavens”

Clearly that we have TWO distinct Persons, One Yahweh, Who is also “the Word”, Who Visited Abraham and Sarah, in “Person”; and the Other Who is called on, Who is in Heaven, Who is also Yahweh.

 

[RLT63]

The LORD (God) is a spirit (John 4:24) and the spiritual cannot be seen (2 Corinthians 4:18).

So since we men can only see temporal things, this must have been a temporal representation of God (The LORD).



And where does it say that it was Jesus Christ who visited Abraham?

Answer: it doesn’t.

A certain x3 doctrine is making you read into the scriptures.

God had a meal with Abraham and it wasn't kosher. They had milk and meat.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

@ByGraceThroughFaith @RLT63


“While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

The eternal God cannot be seen.

Unless you want to make Paul into a liar.

They saw a TEMPORAL representation of God.

Like Jesus was a temporal representation of God; in word and power.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Do you recognize the Bible is highly figurative

this FALSE argument is used by those who cannot really accept what the Bible says, so they produce these STRAWMEN to support their utter RUBBISH!

 

[Wrangler]

Yahweh actually ATE with Abraham and Sarah, this is what the Bible says.

Given your long established pattern of claiming the Bible says things that it doesn’t, I’m dubious of your claim void of an actual reference to Scripture.