John 8:24, 28, 58 - Jesus Christ IS YHWH

[Carl Emerson]

''By your logic - when scripture says no one has seen God and Jesus said He who has seen me has seen the Father... - by your logic Jesus was lying.''
Well as you don't believe Jesus is the Father, I don't think your logic is helping you. Try and understand what it means, in reality for the Holy Spirit to be on Christ in bodily form(Luke3:22) Don't just have a superficial understanding of the letter!
I'm afraid you are certainly led over this subject by rational analysis, however much you try and plead otherwise. Jesus plainly stated the following:
Now this is eternal life(note what constitutes eternal life): that they know you(the Father), the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent John17:3
Yet here you are, trying hard to overturn the plain words of Christ on the subject of discussion. And you believe the Holy Spirit is leading you to do that? Nonsense.
In effect, you are stating: ''If you stand on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth you will be condemned''
And you believe you were guided to believe that by the Holy Spirit?
Incidentally, I don't mind from my POV you claiming I have the spirit in me that drove the pharisees on, as Jesus said:
The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household! Matt10:24&25

I think I have misunderstood you.

I do believe Jesus and the Father are one.

I suspect we have not understood each other and I apologise.

 

[Daydreamer]

I think I have misunderstood you.

I do believe Jesus and the Father are one.

I suspect we have not understood each other and I apologise.

Whether we would completely agree on this subject or not, thank you for your words. I also apologise to you for any offence caused.

 

[Wrangler]

Some have ears to hear, some don't.

Have a great day.

Some hear what is not there. Some hear only what is there.

Make a blessed day.

 

[theefaith]

The apostles worked miracles but only God can work miracles!

do they did so in the name of Jesus! An indication that Jesus is Divine!

But Jesus worked powerful miracles in his own person!

only Can do so!

Matt 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Jesus is divine!

 

[Carl Emerson]

The Name of Jesus is the Name above every name in heaven and on earth and in the age to come.

When this sinks in and one agrees that the Father has no greater name than Jesus and therefore no greater authority - things start to make sense. There is no hierarchy in the Godhead. The terms 'father' and Son' and 'Spirit' do not fully represent the divine union of the three and this relationship is beyond human understanding.

 

[Daydreamer]

But Jesus worked powerful miracles in his own person!

I'm not getting into another debate on this thread concerning the title of it. But, could you clarify your above statement please. Why was Jesus able to perform powerful miracles?

 

[pompadour]

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think one of the issues that underpins this discussion is how we view Scripture.

It seems some believe that Scripture contains all that can be known about God.

Yet Scripture itself makes it clear that man's understanding falls short when it comes to understanding God's ways.

Some believe that the Holy Spirit reveals more than the plain reading of the text and some don't.

We know that even the earthly ministry of Jesus is not recorded in full.

As Paul says "Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known..."

So why dismiss the claim that there are mysteries concerning God that can become known both in this and in the next life.

This is not mysticism unless you consider Paul a mystic.

There are aspects of God's nature that we cant yet appreciate and they are certainly not recorded in scripture.

So to dismiss the trinity on the basis of non mention of the word 'trinity' in scripture is a nonsense.

Scripture does not present a complete picture of the creator.

Devotional and meditative communion with the Holy Spirit through His word over many years however may reveal more than what is conveyed by the plain text.

This may even come direct as it did with Paul. (Gal 1:11-13)

Ephesians 1:17
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

Eph 3
20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

 

[Daydreamer]

Some believe that the Holy Spirit reveals more than the plain reading of the text and some don't.
Devotional and meditative communion with the Holy Spirit through His word over many years however may reveal more than what is conveyed by the plain text.

A Jewish believe once said: ''You can understand the quran simply by reading the letter of what is written in it, the bible was not meant to be understood that way''
I thought he made a rather simple, but profound statement. If we only understood the plain text literally on all occasions we would soon run into trouble. 1John1:8& 1 John3:5-9 would be good examples of this. I would agree with what I think you are saying. Only the Holy Spirit can bring us to understand the message contained in the letter of scripture.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes... the extreme is when in Islam they write a 'holy' text with chalk, rub it off into a cup add water and drink it.

Sadly we have members here who similarly regard the literal text as 'Holy' and miss the deeper meanings.

 

[Matthias]

Look deep, but not too deep; for in the deep you will imagine things which are not there.

 

[Daydreamer]

But Jesus worked powerful miracles in his own person!

And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. Luke3:22

Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, Luke4:1

Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, Luke4:14

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you Luke12:28

For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God[i] gives the Spirit without limit. John3:34

 

[Carl Emerson]

Look deep, but not too deep; for in the deep you will imagine things which are not there.

It isn't a matter of looking, or imagining - it is a matter of hearing what the Holy Spirit reveals.

 

[Daydreamer]

It isn't a matter of looking, or imagining - it is a matter of hearing what the Holy Spirit reveals.

But then, you can get two people, who both believe they hear what the Holy Spirit reveals but do not always agree.

 

[Matthias]

“If commentators are not content to confine themselves to the literal and surface meaning, their symbolic interpretations are likely to reflect their own mode of thinking rather than the evangelist’s intention.”

(F.F. Bruce, “The History of New Testament Study,” cited by Lita Sanders in “Hidden messages in Scripture?”)

https://creation.com/hidden-messages-in-scripture

 

[Carl Emerson]

But then, you can get two people, who both believe they hear what the Holy Spirit reveals but do not always agree.

That does not negate the role of the Holy Spirit in leading us into all truth as Jesus said and John confirmed...

 

[Daydreamer]

That does not negate the role of the Holy Spirit in leading us into all truth as Jesus said and John confirmed...

Absolutely. The problem is when he is not allowed to. But my point was, two people with differing views, may well both say they rely on the Holy Spirit to lead them into truth/discern what is written. And I imagine, on a website such as this, both would be as convinced as each other they are the one being led into truth by the Spirit concerning any matter of disagreement

 

[Carl Emerson]

Absolutely. The problem is when he is not allowed to. But my point was, two people with differing views, may well both say they rely on the Holy Spirit to lead them into truth/discern what is written. And I imagine, on a website such as this, both would be as convinced as each other they are the one being led into truth by the Spirit concerning any matter of disagreement

I think attitude comes into it, and also falling into human loyalty.

Intellectual humility is essential as is receiving individual revelation rather than second hand opinion.

The temptation in the Garden was around the desire to know.

In the Greek they had two words to distinguish what was truth and opinion, Gnosis and Epi-gnosis.

When you have revelation you have a certain authority to share.

Then you have Epi-gnosis or 'total knowing'

Many share authoritatively without Epi-gnostic revelation.

It is essential to send questions 'upstairs' and leave then there.

What you need to know comes back down.

Folks chase knowledge and miss the truth.

Excuse the rant...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Absolutely. The problem is when he is not allowed to. But my point was, two people with differing views, may well both say they rely on the Holy Spirit to lead them into truth/discern what is written. And I imagine, on a website such as this, both would be as convinced as each other they are the one being led into truth by the Spirit concerning any matter of disagreement

I suspect that those to whom Jesus said "I never knew you" will have had a lot of knowledge.

 

[Daydreamer]

Folks chase knowledge and miss the truth.

Excuse the rant...

No need to apologise, I enjoyed reading your post. I couldn't agree more with the above, and I would say it is evidenced nowhere more than on internet debating websites. I honestly believe the average internet debater, who delves into the Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew to learn, endlessly reads of scholars and theologians work, and scours concordances such as Strongs, errs far more(or understands less) in biblical understanding that matters most than the average pew sitter who has done none of those things.