John 8:24, 28, 58 - Jesus Christ IS YHWH

[Daydreamer]

Similarly James says the Wisdom from Above is reasonable (able to be discussed) so those who present verses only and refuse discussion are not presenting God's Wisdom.

If someone can give me a verse of scripture that plainly states you must believe Christ is the one true God to inherit eternal life I would be happy to discuss it. Can anyone find such a verse which would contradict the words of Christ in John17:3?

 

[pompadour]

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(30) I and my Father are one.—The last clause of John 10:29 is identical with the last clause of John 10:28 if we identify “Father’s” with “My.” This our Lord now formally does. The last verses have told of power greater than all, and these words are an assertion that in the infinity of All-mighty Power the Son is one with the Father. They are more than this, for the Greek word for “one” is neuter, and the thought is not, therefore, of unity of person, but is of unity of essence. “The Son is of one substance with the Father.” In the plural “are” there is the assertion of distinctness as against Sabellianism, and in the “one” there is the assertion of co-ordination as against Arianism. At recurring periods in the history of exegesis men have tried to establish that these words do not imply more than unity of will between the Father and the Son. We have seen above that they assert both oneness of power and oneness of nature; but the best answer to all attempts to attach any meaning lower than that of the divinity of our Lord to these His words is found here, as in the parallel instance in John 8:58-59, in the conduct of the Jews themselves. To them the words conveyed but one meaning, and they sought to punish by stoning what seemed to them to be blasphemy. Their reason is here given in express words, “because that Thou, being a man, makest thyself God” (John 10:33).

 

[Carl Emerson]

If someone can give me a verse of scripture that plainly states you must believe Christ is the one true God to inherit eternal life I would be happy to discuss it. Can anyone find such a verse which would contradict the words of Christ in John17:3?

Running the risk of being drawn into a game...

10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11 He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

 

[Wrangler]

Running the risk of being drawn into a game...

10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11 He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

Wait. Who raised Jesus from the dead?

 

[Daydreamer]

Running the risk of being drawn into a game...

10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11 He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

I don't see my question as part of a game. I just think its tragic when people try and theologise to overturn the words of Jesus as to what belief is needed to attain to eternal life

 

[Carl Emerson]

Wait. Who raised Jesus from the dead?

Jesus is God period.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Wait. Who raised Jesus from the dead?

You cant apply rational analysis to the mysteries of God.

 

[Daydreamer]

You cant apply rational analysis to the mysteries of God.

Those who insist you must believe Jesus is the one true God to receive eternal life do nothing but rational analysis to try and prove their point. They spend their time trying to overturn the plainly written word as to the title Christ must be given to inherit eternal life according to rational analysis of verses of scripture, for they don’t have any plain scripture to support their view. Is the bible to be viewed as a cryptic crossword so to speak? Is a fundamentally required belief to receive eternal life not plainly stated in the bible? Such a belief would bring discredit to the bible. Do we have to rely on scholars and theologians to delve into choice texts in order to overturn the plainly written word by rational analysis? You would rarely get this in the churches themselves. In all my decades of going to Trinitarian churches, I only heard one young minister, fresh out of theological college even state Christ was God himself and all Christians should believe it. How many ministers do you know who would stand in the pulpit and state: ‘’If you believe Jesus is the Son of God but not the one true God you will be condemned to hell on the day of judgement’’ (what many on the internet believe) A few may exist, but even fewer in mainstream protestant churches. It’s mainly an internet thing, isn’t it. Why do you think that is? Rational analysis will do fine for a response.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is God period.

What verse says that again? And who raised Jesus from the dead in the verse in question?

 

[Wrangler]

You cant apply rational analysis to the mysteries of God.

So says the mystic.

Fortunately, God chose not to keep who he is a mystery.


Romans 15:6
Contemporary English Version

6 Then all of you together will praise God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Those who insist you must believe Jesus is the one true God to receive eternal life do nothing but rational analysis to try and prove their point. They spend their time trying to overturn the plainly written word as to the title Christ must be given to inherit eternal life according to rational analysis of verses of scripture, for they don’t have any plain scripture to support their view. Is the bible to be viewed as a cryptic crossword so to speak? Is a fundamentally required belief to receive eternal life not plainly stated in the bible? Such a belief would bring discredit to the bible. Do we have to rely on scholars and theologians to delve into choice texts in order to overturn the plainly written word by rational analysis? You would rarely get this in the churches themselves. In all my decades of going to Trinitarian churches, I only heard one young minister, fresh out of theological college even state Christ was God himself and all Christians should believe it. How many ministers do you know who would stand in the pulpit and state: ‘’If you believe Jesus is the Son of God but not the one true God you will be condemned to hell on the day of judgement’’ (what many on the internet believe) A few may exist, but even fewer in mainstream protestant churches. It’s mainly an internet thing, isn’t it. Why do you think that is? Rational analysis will do fine for a response.

Just as I thought - a game is being played...

So you don't need the Holy Spirit to witness to what the Author of Scripture intended to be understood? Just rationalise?

I think not...

1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So says the mystic.

Fortunately, God chose not to keep who he is a mystery.


Romans 15:6
Contemporary English Version

6 Then all of you together will praise God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Being a 'Mystic' and acknowledging that there is a certain mystery to the Godhead are two different things.

 

[Daydreamer]

Just as I thought - a game is being played...

So you don't need the Holy Spirit to witness to what the Author of Scripture intended to be understood? Just rationalise?

I think not...

1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

You didn't understand my post? I think it was very plainly written. Those who insist you must believe Jesus is the one true God to receive eternal life do nothing but rational analysis to try and prove their point. Is that hard to understand? They use their rational analysis to try and overturn the plainly written word. If they were led by the Holy Spirit, rather than their rational analysis they would not do that. I think that is simple to understand, and should lead to no misunderstanding at all. For I totally agree with you, 1Cor2:14 is vital to be led into truth.
I wrote to you in post 421:
''If someone can give me a verse of scripture that plainly states you must believe Christ is the one true God to inherit eternal life I would be happy to discuss it. Can anyone find such a verse which would contradict the words of Christ in John17:3?''
You responded:
'''Running the risk of being drawn into a game...

10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11 He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
Wait. Who raised Jesus from the dead?'''

So you rational analysis thought you found a scripture, that could contradict the words of Christ. For I asked for a scripture that would show we must believe Christ is the one true God to receive eternal life. So, if you think you found such a scripture being led of the Holy Spirit into truth, that would mean the Holy Spirit was contradicting the words of Christ. In trinitarian terms God is then contradicting God. As such a thing is absurd, you are only left with one possibility. Your rational analysis is leading you into error

 

[Rita]

I have been pondering this whole issue of why there are so many discussions on this whole subject. I came to faith through believing who Jesus was, the messiah, savour , I came to faith through understanding that I was a sinner that needed forgiveness, I came to faith through believing that the cross was the ultimate sacrifice. I didn’t even know about the trinity when I asked the Lord into my life, or when I received the Holy Spirit……….somewhere along the line that followed I simply believed in the trinity …….
I have never questioned anyone’s faith based on the trinity ………….
I have always believed that ‘ knowing ‘ who Jesus is refers to knowing that he is the chosen one, the messiah and saviour, the one who would redeem and save, the one that would offer restoration.

 

[farouk]

God in Three Persons is strongly present in Scripture.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You didn't understand my post? I think it was very plainly written. Those who insist you must believe Jesus is the one true God to receive eternal life do nothing but rational analysis to try and prove their point. Is that hard to understand? They use their rational analysis to try and overturn the plainly written word. If they were led by the Holy Spirit, rather than their rational analysis they would not do that. I think that is simple to understand, and should lead to no misunderstanding at all. For I totally agree with you, 1Cor2:14 is vital to be led into truth.
I wrote to you in post 421:
''If someone can give me a verse of scripture that plainly states you must believe Christ is the one true God to inherit eternal life I would be happy to discuss it. Can anyone find such a verse which would contradict the words of Christ in John17:3?''
You responded:
'''Running the risk of being drawn into a game...

10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11 He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
Wait. Who raised Jesus from the dead?'''

So you rational analysis thought you found a scripture, that could contradict the words of Christ. For I asked for a scripture that would show we must believe Christ is the one true God to receive eternal life. So, if you think you found such a scripture being led of the Holy Spirit into truth, that would mean the Holy Spirit was contradicting the words of Christ. In trinitarian terms God is then contradicting God. As such a thing is absurd, you are only left with one possibility. Your rational analysis is leading you into error

No offence but you are talking nonsense.

It wasn't rational thought that led me to that verse...

I spent more than 5 years devotionally reading nothing but scripture with no 'Christian' input - So there is a reservoir of His Word at my fingertips.

It is far from 'Rational' as you claim.

You are clearly here to teach treating others as lesser or deceived - Jesus didn't recommend that either.

When the occasion requires a quick response the Bible opens at the exact verse required - that is not rational either.

By your logic - when scripture says no one has seen God and Jesus said He who has seen me has seen the Father... - by your logic Jesus was lying.

That is what rationality leads to - it is frankly dangerous and the Pharisees had plenty of it - and the Spirit that drove them lives on.

 

[Daydreamer]

No offence but you are talking nonsense.

It wasn't rational thought that led me to that verse...

I spent more than 5 years devotionally reading nothing but scripture with no 'Christian' input - So there is a reservoir of His Word at my fingertips.

It is far from 'Rational' as you claim.

You are clearly here to teach treating others as lesser or deceived - Jesus didn't recommend that either.

When the occasion requires a quick response the Bible opens at the exact verse required - that is not rational either.

By your logic - when scripture says no one has seen God and Jesus said He who has seen me has seen the Father... - by your logic Jesus was lying.

That is what rationality leads to - it is frankly dangerous and the Pharisees had plenty of it - and the Spirit that drove them lives on.

''By your logic - when scripture says no one has seen God and Jesus said He who has seen me has seen the Father... - by your logic Jesus was lying.''
Well as you don't believe Jesus is the Father, I don't think your logic is helping you. Try and understand what it means, in reality for the Holy Spirit to be on Christ in bodily form(Luke3:22) Don't just have a superficial understanding of the letter!
I'm afraid you are certainly led over this subject by rational analysis, however much you try and plead otherwise. Jesus plainly stated the following:
Now this is eternal life(note what constitutes eternal life): that they know you(the Father), the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent John17:3
Yet here you are, trying hard to overturn the plain words of Christ on the subject of discussion. And you believe the Holy Spirit is leading you to do that? Nonsense.
In effect, you are stating: ''If you stand on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth you will be condemned''
And you believe you were guided to believe that by the Holy Spirit?
Incidentally, I don't mind from my POV you claiming I have the spirit in me that drove the pharisees on, as Jesus said:
The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household! Matt10:24&25

 

[Daydreamer]

I have been pondering this whole issue of why there are so many discussions on this whole subject. I came to faith through believing who Jesus was, the messiah, savour , I came to faith through understanding that I was a sinner that needed forgiveness, I came to faith through believing that the cross was the ultimate sacrifice. I didn’t even know about the trinity when I asked the Lord into my life, or when I received the Holy Spirit……….somewhere along the line that followed I simply believed in the trinity …….
I have never questioned anyone’s faith based on the trinity ………….
I have always believed that ‘ knowing ‘ who Jesus is refers to knowing that he is the chosen one, the messiah and saviour, the one who would redeem and save, the one that would offer restoration.

This is in the main only discussed on the internet. At the tender age of 50, I first ventured onto internet debating websites. A thread was there, entitled: ''Did Jesus claim to be God when he walked this earth'' In my innocence, I simply responded ''No'' I immediatley got pounced on by a pentecostal demanding to know why I was misleading people. I was truly shocked. In four decades of going to various trinitarian churches, I had at that time never once heard any minister plainly state from the pulpit ''Christ is God himself'' let alone you must believe it to inherit eternal life. There may be a few that would do so, but I have never come accross one. One young assistant paster, fresh out of theological college, did a few years ago from the pulpit state ''Christ is God and all christians should believe it, but that was all. The internet however, is very different. I wonder why! Incidentally, in my experience, at least half of people who do attend trinitarian churches would solely refer to Christ as the Son of God, and over 90% of them would accept anyone as a christian who only termed Christ the Son of God, not the one true God. But as I said, the internet is a completely different matter

 

[Wrangler]

Being a 'Mystic' and acknowledging that there is a certain mystery to the Godhead are two different things.

No there isn’t. There is not much mystery to things that don’t exist.

 

[Carl Emerson]

No there isn’t. There is not much mystery to things that don’t exist.

Some have ears to hear, some don't.

Have a great day.