John Calvin and Calvinism.

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Grailhunter

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Out of the teachings of Satan? What a claim! Now prove it.
How does it blaspheme God? Again, back your outrageous claims up.

Big talk, no substance. Goodbye.

How do figure you can go to heaven by defining God as a monstrous puppet master?
When you are standing before Christ explaining you believe His Father denied mankind free will, how do you think that is going to go for you?
That you believed He damned people before they were born.

Ya know an abortion doctor gets up in the morning and has his or her breakfast and goes to work to kill babies. What kind of heart could do that? Day in and day out. But what you believe is that God damned billions of babies to hell before they were born. No mercy and no escape from a monstrous puppet master. Murder babies or send them to hell for eternal punishment....which is worse?
 

reformed1689

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How do figure you can go to heaven by defining God as a monstrous puppet master?
When you are standing before Christ explaining you believe His Father denied mankind free will, how do you think that is going to go for you?
That you believed He damned people before they were born.

Ya know an abortion doctor gets up in the morning and has his or her breakfast and goes to work to kill babies. What kind of heart could do that? Day in and day out. But what you believe is that God damned billions of babies to hell before they were born. No mercy and no escape from a monstrous puppet master. Murder babies or send them to hell for eternal punishment....which is worse?
Well for one, I don't define God as a monstrous puppet master, that's a strawman argument and a pretty outrageous one at that. Who said anything about denying mankind free will? Again, strawman argument. You realize I believe in free will correct? So if you care to actually interact with Calvinism, be my guest, but you haven't so far.
 

reformed1689

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All human beings. Is there more than one "kind" of human being?

You're the one making a "kind" argument when all human beings are sinners. They are all the same "kind". If Jesus Christ died for one sinner, HE died for them all. ALL THE SAME KIND.....

A "kind" argue is empty when it comes from a Calvinist.
And where does it say all human beings? I thought we were talking about the whole world. You are grasping for straws here and it isn't going so well.

Here is a problem with your view. If Jesus died and paid for the sins of all, but all are not saved, that means Jesus was not enough. Is that what you believe?
 

reformed1689

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Deflecting will get you nowhere. I was debated Calvinism with DTS Alumni a very long time ago. None of them claimed I "didn't know" Calvinism.

Like others have said. It seems this is the favorite argument of modern Calvinists.... "you don't really know Calvinism"....


Adam wasn't impeccable. Are you claiming he was? Saying he didn't have a sin nature until he fell doesn't change the fact that he willing choose to sin. Satan influenced Eve and Adam sinned so as to not lose Eve.

The Gospel provides remedy. The Gospel is not difficult to understand and this life "sets the stage" for disappointment. It drives us to know ourselves. To know what a message of "hope" is. To say that a human being can't understand the Gospel is ridiculous.
You still haven't told me anything about Calvinism to demonstrate you actually understand it in the first place. You also have shown any part of Calvinism to be unbiblical. So not sure what your point is about DTS alumni (as if that somehow makes your point valid) but you really haven't done anything to debate here.

And where do you see in Scripture that Adam sinned so he would not lose Eve?
 

Grailhunter

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I don't define God as a monstrous puppet master, that's a strawman argument and a pretty outrageous one at that.
That is exactly how Calvinist doctrines describes God. The path to hell can have a sweet smell but it still turns out as sulfur.

Who said anything about denying mankind free will?
All that means is that you have not been paying attention....all discussions and their 5 points is about mankind not having free-will.
You realize I believe in free will correct?
I do not know what you believe, but if you believe mankind has free-will to choose Christ....you do not believe in Calvinism.
I am taking about the beliefs of John Calvin and Calvinism. Since Calvinist churches deceive their congregations, there are a lot of them that do not know the evils of Calvinism. Wolves in sheep's clothing.

wolf-sheepbig4.JPG
 

PinSeeker

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You can call it whatever you wish. But it is a fact and here is the Bible proof:

ROMANS 10: BUT THEY HAVE NOT ALL OBEYED THE GOSPEL
16 But they have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by
them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


1. Did God and Christ desire the salvation of all Israel? Absolutely
2. Did the majority of Jews reject Christ? Absolutely
3. Was this actually disobedience to the Gospel? Absolutely
4. Did God allow this disobedience? Absolutely

If anything, every Jew should have been saved, since Israel was the "elect" nation of God. But the truth is that only a small believing remnant was saved.
Physical Israel (all ethnic Jews) and God's spiritual Israel (all true Jews, as in Romans 2:28-29) are not one and the same. As I'm sure you well know, from Romans 9:6-7, not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring.

Grace and peace to you.
 
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reformed1689

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That is exactly how Calvinist doctrines describes God. The path to hell can have a sweet smell but it still turns out as sulfur.
NO, that is your caricature of the Calvinist view.

All that means is that you have not been paying attention....all discussions and their 5 points is about mankind not having free-will.
Again, that just means you don't know what you are talking about. We all have the freedom to choose what we want. But the will (our desires) are in bondage without a change from God. So we do not want God. We never choose God on our own. So if you mean ABSOLUTE free will, you are right, I don't believe in that because it is a fantasy that doesn't exist.

I do not know what you believe, but if you believe mankind has free-will to choose Christ....you do not believe in Calvinism.
I am taking about the beliefs of John Calvin and Calvinism. Since Calvinist churches deceive their congregations, there are a lot of them that do not know the evils of Calvinism. Sheep in wolves clothing.
So stop with the caricatures and let's deal with what Calvinist's ACTUALLY believe.
 

Grailhunter

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Again, that just means you don't know what you are talking about. We all have the freedom to choose what we want. But the will (our desires) are in bondage without a change from God. So we do not want God. We never choose God on our own. So if you mean ABSOLUTE free will, you are right, I don't believe in that because it is a fantasy that doesn't exist.
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Renniks

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Yes it is. A total shift. You just changed ~ I guess unwittingly ~ the whole thrust of the conversation. No, John Calvin's theology was certainly not that God ordained their failures (sin). He (God) did not.


"Think" what you want, man. You're your own person.

Grace and peace to you.
You claim to be Calvinist but don't believe in calvins theology. In his doctrine God ordained everything. Murder, rape, every sin ever.
 

Renniks

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and you mistake jesus being the propitiation for all mankinds sin as meaning all have received that atonement!

I fully agree that Jesus paid for every single persons sin on the cross! By doing so, He ruled out any other means by which a person can be saved!

Jesus death and resurrection is able to save all mankind without a doubt! But only the elect benefit from His death, unless you are preaching universal salvation.
Calvinists contradicting themselves again!
God died for all but not really.
and you mistake jesus being the propitiation for all mankinds sin as meaning all have received that atonement!

I fully agree that Jesus paid for every single persons sin on the cross! By doing so, He ruled out any other means by which a person can be saved!

Jesus death and resurrection is able to save all mankind without a doubt! But only the elect benefit from His death, unless you are preaching universal salvation.
Calvinists: " God died for everyone, but not really. "

" He wants everyone to be saved but he doesn't let most get saved.'
Your god is schizophrenic.
 

Renniks

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The natural man CANNOT please God! Accepting Jesus as Savior pleases God- How can the unsaved natural man do that if they CANNOT please God!
The natural man cannot perceive th ethings of God- How can they understand the gospel and receive it- they cannot understand it- it is foolishness to the unsaved man!
Circular reasoning at its finest!
" God wants to save everyone, but he doesn't really know what he wants apparently, because he refuses to enlighten most."

What a crock.
 

Bible Highlighter

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Here is the problem, how does whole world automatically mean all individuals?

Here is an example: During the world series the announcer says "The eyes of the whole world are on this moment." Does that literally mean every individual in the entire world is watching the world series? Of course not.

This is in context to men and what they say and not what the Bible says.
But even in this context, it says that a good part of the world is watching and it is recorded so that anyone can view it later.

While the Bible could say something similar like this it is simply not made clear by the text that this is so.
The general sense of a word is to read it in its most plain sense unless indicated otherwise by other verses or the context.
The Bible uses other related words to refer to the same concept in that Jesus died for all men’s sins (as in reference to the majority of the world).
But yes. I will take it to mean the majority of the world (of which you do not interpret it as such).
Your view of the words whole world is the opposite of that (Meaning a select small few because Jesus said narrow is the way).

Why do I believe 1 John 2:2 is in reference to the majority of the world? Well, because Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8 says that those who worship the beast do not have their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. This shows that future election is based on God’s foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:1-2) and it is not based on UNconditional Reprobation or the opposite of UNconditional Election because it is something that these individuals did that banned them from having salvation in the future. God could see into the future corridors of time and know what these people will do was an unacceptable evil. But the god of Calvinism is the cause of those who are saved and not saved (and it is not based on anything they really did).

Anyways, I believe Calvinism borderlines on being Sociopathic. Meaning, there is no morality or heart when a true Calvinist reads the Bible. The problem is that the god of Calvinism is simply not a just and good god because He creates life for the simple purpose of torturing that life for all eternity as their one and only sole destiny. Anytime a Calvinist may see an injustice in this world (if they even think that way and they have not gone full robot mode or sociopathic), they have to turn a blind eye to the god of Calvinism and his UNconditional Election. This sort of relates to Eternal Torment (Which is another unbiblical and immoral doctrine). I used to believe in Eternal Torment, but I could not see the immorality behind it (When I believed it). I chocked it up to a mystery. I just blindly believed the church and thought they were right. But in time, I have come to discover that the Bible does not actually teach this and God is good. It’s only the doctrines of men that interpret a cold and unloving god in their own way of thinking. It is my hope you will also see the immorality in both Calvinism and Eternal Torment one day in this life. If not here, you will definitely see it at the Judgment (No doubt about it). The choice is if you want to love and see God as loving and good as the Bible describes Him.

But many times men believe in a god of their own imagining (even when it comes to their claim that they believe in the Bible). They can twist Scripture to their own ends. They can say that they can literally hate their parents because the Bible tells them so. So the Bible can be used as a billy club to hit others over the head with, or it can be used to love. The choice is ours. We can choose Calvinism (the dark side of the force), or we can choose the love of God as described in the Bible. But there has to be an appeal to why you like Calvinism (Seeing it is not true). Ask yourself why you like Calvinism. Yes. I know you think this is simply what the Bible says and or your church cannot be wrong. But if there is even a small chance you could be wrong, the horror you will face in explaining yourself to the LORD of why you thought so wrongfully of Him will not be something that you will enjoy.

You said:
As far as 2 Peter 2:1 there is nothing to explain away. You just don't like a little thing called context.

Right, and that’s why you are not explaining 2 Peter 2:1. For if the truth was on your side and it was easy to explain you would simply do so. But seeing this verse does not support Calvinism, it needs to be placed on the back burner to explain away or to simply ignore (if necessary in order to defend Calvinism). For it’s not the Bible first, it’s Calvinism. Your presupposition is Calvinism when reading the Bible when you should just let the Bible speak for itself without any Calvinistic glasses on.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Because the five points aren't Calvinism, they are biblical.

But they are still called the five points of Calvinism. Hence, it’s still Calvinism.
I will even claim that I learn more towards Arminianism even if I am not a full fledge Arminian in holding to all five points of Remonstrance.
If I held to all five points in Arminianism (Remonstrance), then I would call myself an Arminian (in relation to the fact that I believe all five points). But I don’t believe exactly hold to all five points.
 

Bible Highlighter

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To all:

The Bible has led me to lean more towards Arminianism.

Here are the Original 5 Articles (or Points) of Traditional Arminianism:

  1. Conditional Election.
  2. Unlimited Atonement.
  3. Total Depravity.
  4. Prevenient Grace.
  5. Conditional Preservation of the Saints.

Five Articles of Remonstrance - Wikipedia


I believe in something close to this.

Here are my points (that are similar to Arminianism):

#1. Conditional Election (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#2. Conditional Salvation.
#3. Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority; A.K.A. Free Will Involving One’s Choice Towards the Lord, Grace, or Salvation (Note: Christ draws all men unto Himself, and God is not willing that any should perish.) (Note: All men are given an opportunity or opportunities by God to understand the "Offer of the Love of the Truth" so that they are able to receive it, or reject it of their own free will. - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10.).
#4. Provisional Majority Atonement (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#5. Partial Depravity.
Note: My Arminian influenced points on my list above when rearranged spells CCUPP.

The differences in my points are:

(a) I believe in Partial Depravity, and not Total Depravity.

(b) I believe in Conditional Salvation, and not Conditional Preservation of the Saints. I do not believe God forces us against our own will to do what He wants. We need to be faithful (and it is not God who needs to be faithful on our behalf) (Yes, God can protect us, chastise us, etc., but we have to do our part first to make that so) (We are not puppets).

(c) I believe in Majority Atonement and not Unlimited Atonement. I believe that the sacrifice of Christ's atonement is for the majority of the world, and that it is a free will offer for a person to accept as a gift or to reject it of their own choosing, but God has excluded those who worship the beast in the future from the Lamb's book of life (See: Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8) (Note: While I am sure they had a free will choice to accept Christ, they were never going to do that and God knew that fact; They would do something that could never be forgiven).

(d) Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority and not Prevenient Grace. They are similar but not exactly the same. My view takes into account that God desires all men to be saved, and it also takes into account Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8. Prevenient Grace does not also clarify that God may not make multiple attempts to try and save a person, as well.
Then again, do not take my word for what I have stated. Do your own homework with God's Word and check to see whether these things be so or not. Remember. Trust no one when it comes to what the Word of God says. Yes, there are things many believers may agree on for sure like the Trinity, etc. but there are other things out there that I have discovered we clearly do not agree on. Let God and His Word be your guide, my friends.
 

Lifelong_sinner

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To all:

The Bible has led me to lean more towards Arminianism.

Here are the Original 5 Articles (or Points) of Traditional Arminianism:


  1. Conditional Election.
  2. Unlimited Atonement.
  3. Total Depravity.
  4. Prevenient Grace.
  5. Conditional Preservation of the Saints.
Five Articles of Remonstrance - Wikipedia

I believe in something close to this.

Here are my points (that are similar to Arminianism):

#1. Conditional Election (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#2. Conditional Salvation.
#3. Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority; A.K.A. Free Will Involving One’s Choice Towards the Lord, Grace, or Salvation (Note: Christ draws all men unto Himself, and God is not willing that any should perish.) (Note: All men are given an opportunity or opportunities by God to understand the "Offer of the Love of the Truth" so that they are able to receive it, or reject it of their own free will. - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10.).
#4. Provisional Majority Atonement (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#5. Partial Depravity.
Note: My Arminian influenced points on my list above when rearranged spells CCUPP.

The differences in my points are:

(a) I believe in Partial Depravity, and not Total Depravity.

(b) I believe in Conditional Salvation, and not Conditional Preservation of the Saints. I do not believe God forces us against our own will to do what He wants. We need to be faithful (and it is not God who needs to be faithful on our behalf) (Yes, God can protect us, chastise us, etc., but we have to do our part first to make that so) (We are not puppets).

(c) I believe in Majority Atonement and not Unlimited Atonement. I believe that the sacrifice of Christ's atonement is for the majority of the world, and that it is a free will offer for a person to accept as a gift or to reject it of their own choosing, but God has excluded those who worship the beast in the future from the Lamb's book of life (See: Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8) (Note: While I am sure they had a free will choice to accept Christ, they were never going to do that and God knew that fact; They would do something that could never be forgiven).

(d) Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority and not Prevenient Grace. They are similar but not exactly the same. My view takes into account that God desires all men to be saved, and it also takes into account Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8. Prevenient Grace does not also clarify that God may not make multiple attempts to try and save a person, as well.
Then again, do not take my word for what I have stated. Do your own homework with God's Word and check to see whether these things be so or not. Remember. Trust no one when it comes to what the Word of God says. Yes, there are things many believers may agree on for sure like the Trinity, etc. but there are other things out there that I have discovered we clearly do not agree on. Let God and His Word be your guide, my friends.

whewwww! This seems even worse than regular ole armenianism.
 

PinSeeker

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You claim to be Calvinist but don't believe in calvins theology. In his doctrine God ordained everything. Murder, rape, every sin ever.
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Lifelong_sinner

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I can see new people of the faith not knowing or understanding calvinism, but people who been round the block a few times should understand it at this point. It aint like this just came out last year, this doctrine has been around for hundreds of yrs. Its Biblical, its what the apostles taught, calvin didnt create these doctrines, he just gave them names and put em in a bundle to make it easier to understand.