John Calvin and Calvinism.

[Lifelong_sinner]

The difference between you and Pinseeker is,
Pinseeker is smart at double speak.
You friend, dont try and cover up the ugly bits of calvinism.
You openly tell calvinism like it is.

I like your honesty.
It's sad you are completely deceived into this doctrine.
This is why you do not feel obligated to straighten up your life by repenting of your sins and obeying the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You feel because of this false doctrine of total depravity you are incapable of turning from your sins.
You believe because of calvinism you are not one of the elect.

I fear for you, Life long sinner.
I'm afraid it will only be revealed to you on judgment day,
that God was willing that you give your life to Him, that He might save you.
Because of your indoctrination you cannot see that you will be lost because Calvin deceived you into believing you are not predestined to be saved.
You love John Calvin now.
You will hate him in the next life.

Oh, i do feel obligated to change my life, i have repented many a time, i have asked Jesus to save me more times than i can remember. Last yr alone, i met one on one with 2 different preachers, one baptist, the other a presbyterian. Both said i was saved.
Yet, i cannot believe that i am saved. No one can live as sinful a life as me and ever expect to actually be saved. No one can sin as often as i do, knowing full well its a sin, and still do it anyways. You cant live a life as twisted as mine and ever think that God would find favor with me.

One thing i have found repeatedly, is that i cannot stop my sinfulness from taking over. And i figure, that despite all my begging, if im not over my crazy addictions at this point, im simply not one of the elect. Why do i keep trying? I might be going to hell, but im not gonna stop trying to avoid it. At this point, im just trying to come to terms with me going to hell. Its rough some days, i’ll be honest. Yesterday was rougher than most. I couldnt even do easter with the family because i was such a wreck. But i always think back to romans 9:20, its not for me to ask why. I just accept that His will be done.

 

[Renniks]

Well that's a clumsy way of stating it. I would call it merciful and compassionate (because scripture does). This is His amazing grace. But yes, God purposes to do what he purposes to do, and... then... does it. Whatever He ordains is right, as the hymn goes. So, oh... yes, it is in scripture:

"For those whom He foreknew (foreloved) He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30).

"The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29)

Neither of those verses support what you claim. One merely looks back at what God has done for the saints. Those God knew in times past ( those who agreed to be his) he chose to be confirmed to Jesus' image. There's nothing there about man's will not playing a part. There's nothing that says they had to remain his. This is showing God keeps his promises, not that we have no choice in the matter.

Why would you think that the calling being irrevocable means we can't reject the calling? Again this just means God does his part. Does anyone complete his calling perfectly? If he doesn't is that God's fault?

 

[Renniks]

But election, and predestination have nothing to do with our obedience once we are saved. It has to do with whom God chose before teh world began.

Paul made that clear in rom,ans 9- It is th ePotter who0 has the power over the lump of clay- the clay has no power whatsoever.

then He also exem[plifies Jacvob and Esau showing the choice was Gods before they did anything good or evil.

Then He furhtter exempilfied it is Gods sole choioce when He said He raised Pharoah up just to show His power!

If you cannot understand that there are no preconditions to be elect by God (that is th edefinition of unconditional if you don't know) then your need is beyiong my abilities to help.

Spell check?
The verse in Timothy is by the same author and makes it clear that the clay has to decide to be cleaned. Did Paul contradict himself or are you misunderstanding what he said?
And God chose Jacob over Esau for a job, not for salvation.
And pharaoh hardened his own heart. Sure God raised him up, but he had the same choice as any person to accept or reject the true God. God could have shown his power either way.

 

[Renniks]

Calvins 5 points are biblical!

Not even close.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Can a person be saved if they do not believe in the Trinity?

Well, I asked you if you believe a person is saved if they don't believe in the Trinity. But I take it by your response that this is not a big deal for you (Which suggests that a person can be saved by rejecting the Trinity).
Let me ask you: Do you believe the stories in the Bible are fables or real life events?
Do you take passages like 2 Timothy 3:16-17 are to be read literally or metaphorically or it doesn't really matter?
When did you accept Jesus as your Savior? Was it not by Scripture that you accepted Jesus? Did the Bible come alive for you after that point?

Can a person be saved if they do not believed in Original Sin?

One would need to prove that believing Original Sin is a salvific issue according to the Bible. I have not seen any case that this is so. But to reject the Trinity is to reject 1 John 5:7 and other verses in how God describes Himself. To worship another god not revealed in Scripture is to worship a false god of our own imagining. We cannot worship false gods and be saved. Or do you think all religions a person can be saved by?

Can a person be saved if they do not believe in the infallibility of the Pope?

I am not Catholic or Orthodox and I find these kinds of religions to be in grave error. I am a non-denominational bible alone believing Christian. So obviously the whole pope question is just silly. Nowhere did I suggest or imply I was Catholic. I am strongly against such a false religion because they add things to the Bible that are not there (like bowing down to statues, i.e. idolatry; praying to dead people, and confessing sins to a priest, etcetera).

The Catholics do not believe you can be saved and not believe all this. The doctrines of the Trinity, Original sin, and the Pope, come from Catholic doctrines and the words do no appear in the Bible.

The word “Bible“ does not appear in the Bible and yet we use it to describe the Scriptures. The word “Godhead” is used 3 times in the King James Bible for the Trinity. It's a synonym or related word. Although Modern revisers in the late 1800's tend to change this word to divinity in Modern Bibles (Which went against the established Bible that existed for hundreds of years).

 

[Grailhunter]

Well, I asked you if you believe a person is saved if they don't believe in the Trinity. But I take it by your response that this is not a big deal for you (Which suggests that a person can be saved by rejecting the Trinity).

Rejecting the Trinity? My answer to you was about religious slogans that promote the theology of men. If a word or phrase does not appear in the Bible...it is a red flag...and it is usually some one in the past that is promoting a false belief or personal belief. You are suggesting a go no go situation for a theological word that does not appear in the Bible. People felt so strong about the three persons in one God formula for the Trinity that they used the copy process to re-write the scriptures....look up the Johannine Comma addition.

This can get pretty deep but....First off no person in the Bible had a name that started with a J. That letter came out in the 15th century and did not come into common usage until the 17th century. Then of course no person, place, or thing can start or be pronounced with a J. Ask a Jew how to pronounce Jerusalem. In fact no one knows were the name Jesus came from. And it gets deeper than that.

Yahweh....God Almighty, God the Father creator of heaven and earth.
Yeshua....God the Son, Messiah and Savior.
The Holy Spirit....the un-named God, helper, strengthener, guide.
All three are full-fledged Gods.
Now some believe that they are three "persons" in one God.
Some believe that they are three Gods in a Godhead.
Some believe they are two Gods and a Spirit that projects from God the Father or God the Son.

Here are over a hundred biblical reasons why they are not three persons or Gods in one God.

Grailhunter’s Corner

Do you take passages like 2 Timothy 3:16-17 are to be read literally or metaphorically or it doesn't really matter?

You would not think so, but this is the first thing a cult leader will ask you. Because they have a set of scriptures they what to feed you. But as a whole I believe the Bible is true. Then again there were things they believed and said that were not true. The Apostles said and believed they were living in the last days and Christ would return soon...that did not happen.

When did you accept Jesus as your Savior? Was it not by Scripture that you accepted Jesus? Did the Bible come alive for you after that point?

This is a weird question. Do you think it is a qualifying question? Look I am going to give you a heads up. When I was tooling around on my Radio Flyer tricycle in diapers....I knew and loved Christ. By the time I was 15 years old I was attending a Christian college. I have been educated in five countries regarding the Bible, theology, the languages, and the history and culture. I have smashed cults so do not give me any cult talk.

I am not Catholic or Orthodox and I find these kinds of religions to be in grave error. I am a non-denominational bible alone believing Christian. So obviously the whole pope question is just silly.

It was grouped in a bunch of silliness. I never thought you were Catholic, but the three persons in one God formula and the doctrine of Original Sin comes from the Catholics.

The word “Bible“ does not appear in the Bible and yet we use it to describe the Scriptures.

Yes we use it now because it is a book. But we do not insert it into the scriptures as theology. The scriptures were not in the form of books originally.

The word “Godhead” is used 3 times in the King James Bible for the Trinity.

First off, the Bible does not refer to the Godhead as three persons in one God. Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, Colossians 2:9 are not discussing three persons in one God.

Secondly the King James Version of the Bible is the most error ridden translation....next to the Geneva Bible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Rejecting the Trinity? My answer to you was about religious slogans that promote the theology of men.

Again, the word Trinity is synonymous with Godhead. They are saying the same thing.

Source:
Trinity | Definition of Trinity by Webster's Online Dictionary

If a word or phrase does not appear in the Bible...it is a red flag...and it is usually some one in the past that is promoting a false belief or personal belief.

The word is derived from the Greek trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Latin trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine.

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7).

No doubt you don't believe this verse in the Bible, and you believe the lie of the Movement of the Revisers of the Bible that began with Westcott and Hort (Who held to extremely heretical beliefs). In short, they were liberals who created a team to revise the Bible based off two spurious and questionable manuscripts (Vaticanus and Sinaiticus).

You are suggesting a go no go situation for a theological word that does not appear in the Bible. People felt so strong about the three persons in one God formula for the Trinity that they used the copy process to re-write the scriptures....look up the Johannine Comma addition.

I am aware of this discussion a long time and those who say it was added later are simply lying and covering up for the Revisers of the English Bible that was established for hundreds of years prior.

A Trail of Evidence for 1 John 5:7.

200 AD Tertullian wrote "which three are one" based on the verse in his Against Praxeas, chapter 25.
250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
550 AD Old Latin ms r has it
550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it
800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
1000s AD miniscule 635 has it
1150 AD minuscule ms 88 in the margin
1300s AD miniscule 629 has it
157-1400 AD Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
1500 AD ms 61 has the verse
Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.
The Vaudois

Source:
David Daniels

A good book you should check out validating the authenticity of this verse is this one.

https://www.amazon.com/Defense-Authenticity-John-Pappas-ThM/dp/1490892478/

In Defense of the Authenticity of 1 John 5:7 sheds a strong light on the issues radiating from one controversial verse in one of Johns three New Testament letters. Some manuscripts refer to a phrase called the Johannine Comma centering on the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit while others do not. Chris Pappas, a seasoned pastor steeped in Greek culture, sifts through the scholarly evidence from hundreds of surviving copies of the Greek-language letters. He surveys and analyzes the arguments from biblical scholars who support and who oppose the Commas inclusion. Finally, he presents the reasons for regarding the Comma as a true part of the Word of God in Scripture and for returning it to Johns letter.

Embarking on a survey of the manuscripts, their condition, their roles in the churches theology, and their place in doctrinal controversies, In Defense of the Authenticity of 1 John 5:7 makes a thorough and intricate study of the passage. The journey is somewhat demanding, but the reward for persistence is a deeper appreciation for the meaning for words these few words in particular.

When you listen to the churches present-day conflicts, you may hear trusted authorities undergoing profound questioning and believers facing temptations to doubt those authorities including the Bible. As an aid, In Defense of the Authenticity of 1 John 5:7 offers a history of the churches struggles over biblical authority, a detailed survey of the intricacies of biblical studies, and the wealth of insights residing in one key phrase.

This book was convincing enough to lead a JW (Jehovah's Witness) to believing the Trinity.

Source: (Website Link No longer Available, but it can still be seen via by the WayBack Machine):
Latin Vulgate Bible with Douay-Rheims and King James Version Side-by-Side+Complete Sayings of Jesus Christ

Source:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Latin+to+English

This can get pretty deep but....First off no person in the Bible had a name that started with a J. That letter came out in the 15th century and did not come into common usage until the 17th century. Then of course no person, place, or thing can start or be pronounced with a J. Ask a Jew how to pronounce Jerusalem. In fact no one knows were the name Jesus came from. And it gets deeper than that.

So you disbelieve all of the letter “j”'s in the English language and consider them to be false?
That the letter “j” should not be used when talking about the Bible?
Your first word in your post includes a letter “j” (i.e. the word Rejecting).
Should we change the lettering of this word?
Does the meaning of this word change when it existed in the original writings of Scripture and it's copies?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yahweh....God Almighty, God the Father creator of heaven and earth.
Yeshua....God the Son, Messiah and Savior.
The Holy Spirit....the un-named God, helper, strengthener, guide.
All three are full-fledged Gods.
Now some believe that they are three "persons" in one God.
Some believe that they are three Gods in a Godhead.
Some believe they are two Gods and a Spirit that projects from God the Father or God the Son.

Here are over a hundred biblical reasons why they are not three persons or Gods in one God.

Grailhunter’s Corner

You don't understand the Godhead. It's not three gods in one God.
It's one God who co-exists as three distinct persons (yet not separated).

The Trinity:

The Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) (1 Timothy 2:5) (Isaiah 45:5).

Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.

Here are a couple of quick points:

#1. The word Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔ים) is both a singular and a plural noun.
#2. God refers to Himself in plural form (Genesis 1:26) (Genesis 3:22) (Genesis 11:7) (Isaiah 6:8).
#3. Plurality of God in New Testament (Matthew 28:19) (2 Corinthians 13:14) (John 14:16-20).
#4. Introductions to both the Son & Holy Spirit (Daniel 7:9-10, Daniel 7:13-14) (John 14:16)
#5. Different persons of Godhead appear at one time (Luke 3:21-22)
#6. Distinctions of Wills (Luke 22:42).
#7. Conversations Between the Godhead (Psalms 2:1-12) (Psalms 45:6-7) (Psalms 110:1) (Matthew 11:27) (John 17:24).​

The most clearest verse in Scripture that describes the Trinity is 1 John 5:7.

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7).​

This verse appears in the King James Version but it is wrongfully removed from many Modern Translations.


Now, there are two wrong extremes people have made involving the Trinity.


#1. Modalism
(Which is a belief held by United Pentecostals).

This says that there are no distinctive persons within the Godhead. That God the Father just puts on a mask and pretends to be the Son; Others believe it says all three persons are smashed together whereby the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost do not have any kind of distinctiveness anymore. But the Bible makes it clear that the Father sent the Son to die for our sins (And it was not the Son sending the Father) (1 John 4:14). The Bible makes it clear that one cannot be forgiven if they speak a word against the Holy Spirit but yet, this is not the case if one speaks a word against the Son, though (Matthew 12:32).​

#2. Tritheism
(Which is a belief held by Mormons).

This says that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct gods. This is polytheism or the worship of more than one God. But the Bible makes it clear that the Lord our God is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4).​

Then there is the correct view of the Trinity:

The Lord our God exists as one God, but He exists as three distinct persons (i.e. The Father, the Word (Christ), and the Holy Ghost). All three persons co-existed as one God for all eternity. Also, in the Trinity, the Father and the Son can dwell within one another despite their distinctiveness as persons within the Godhead, too. For Jesus said He dwells in the Father and the Father dwells in Him (John 14:10) (John 17:21).


Romans 1:20 says,

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"​

Meaning, even nature itself declares the Godhead (or the Trinity).

Atoms = Nucleus, Protons, Electrons.
Water Molecules = Hydrogen Atom, Hydrogen Atom, Oxygen Atom.
Colors of White Light = Red, Blue, Green.
Man's Formation = Dust, Mist (i.e. Water), Breadth of Life.
Man Made in God's Image = Physical Body, Spirit Body, Soul.​

Although the word "Trinity" is not found within the Scriptures, the word "Godhead" is used instead (Acts 17:29) (Romans 1:20) (Colossians 2:9).


Jesus had power as God.

#1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
#2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
#3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
#4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
#5 Jesus had the power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
#6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
#7. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Matthew 12:25) (Mark 2:8) (Luke 5:22) (Luke 6:8) (Luke 9:47) (Luke 24:38).
#8. Jesus knew about the lives of others (John 2:24) (John 4:17-18) (John 4:29) (John 6:64).​

God purchased us with His own blood:

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” (Acts of the Apostles 20:28).​

There is no Savior beside or next to God:

“I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.” (Isaiah 43:11).​

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.” (Matthew 16:19).

Does Jesus Have a God?

(Explaining John 20:17):

Jesus saith unto her,

"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."" (John 20:17).​

Is Jesus (Who is God) really saying He has a God?
In other words, does God have a God?

Well, in the beginning of the gospel of John, it says this...

John 1:1-2 KJV - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God. The same was in the beginning with God."

In other words, John 20:17 is speaking in a similar way as John 1:1. The Word (Jesus - who is God) was with God the Father.

So when Jesus says... "I ascend unto... my God..." He is acknowledging that He is ascending to the Father who is God in essence in being (as a part of the plurality of the Godhead).

Yet, how can God have a God? Doesn't that imply a possession?
Yes, but Jesus says elsewhere, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Also, when Jesus uses the word "my" in the words "my God" He is also referring to whom He always obeys, too (Sort of like how a loyal servant always obeys His ruling King).

For Jesus says elsewhere, "... for I do always those things that please him." (John 8:29).
Also, when Jesus claimed to be God, and the Pharisees wanted to kill him for it, Jesus quoted Old Testament Scripture that says, "ye are gods." (i.e. gods = kings) as a way of protecting His mission in going to the cross (John 10:34).

Holy Spirit is God:

The Holy Spirit is called God:

“Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.” (Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4).

The Holy Spirit is on equal level with being God:

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” (Matthew 28:19).

The Holy Spirit is eternal:

“How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” (Hebrews 9:14).

The Holy Spirit is a person:

“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;” (John 14:16).

The Holy Spirit can be grieved:

“And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.” (Ephesians 4:30).

The Holy Spirit can be blasphemed:

“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” (Matthew 12:32).

Important Note: Only God can be blasphemed.

The Father Sent The Holy Spirit

The Bible says that God the Father sent the Holy Spirit. Jesus said.

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you (John 14:26).

The Father will send the Holy Spirit, not Himself, to help believers.

There Is A Difference Between The Father And The Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit does the will of God the Father. Paul wrote.

And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will (Romans 8:27).

Source used for Holy Spirit being distinct from the Father:

Is the Holy Spirit a Distinct Person from God the Father?

(Note: While I agree with this article by this author, that does not mean I agree with everything this author or website says).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Grailhunter

160 Reasons Jesus Christ is Almighty God:

By Thomas Golda

Only because Jesus Christ is Almighty God do we have reassurance that He can save His elect from eternal damnation and eternal torment.

1. Jesus IS the visible image of the Invisible God - Colossians 1:15, II Corinthians 4:4...to see Jesus is to see the Invisible God - Mankind was created IN the image of God - Genesis 1:26...Jesus IS the image of God. To see Jesus is to see the Invisible God in the flesh.

2. Jesus was conceived by God - Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:20. Since Mary was his earthy mother, that makes Jesus fully human..since God was His physical Father, since Jesus did not have an earthy father, that makes Jesus fully God. He was fully man and fully God. The Great Godman.

3. To see Jesus' face is to see the glory of God - II Corinthians 4:6

4. Jesus "being in the form of God" makes Him God - Philippians 2:6

5. Jesus being the brightness of the Father's glory - Hebrews 1:3

6. Jesus is the exact image of the Father's Person - Hebrews 1:3

7. That is why to "see Jesus" is to "see the Father" - John 14:9, John 12:45

8. That is why Jesus said He and His Father are one - John 10:30

9. Jesus is IN the bosom of the Father - John 1:18. Not "on" the bosom"..not "near" the bosom...IN the bosom...He is in the center of the Father. They are "one"
10. He is called EVERLASTING Father - Isaiah 9:6

11. Jesus deserves the SAME honour as the Father - John 5:23

12.Jesus was WORSHIPPED - Matthew 2:11, Matthew 9:12, Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:9, Luke 24:52..Since only God is to be worshipped - Matthew 4:10..that means Jesus is God.

13. Even angels WORSHIP Jesus - Hebrews 1:6

14. Heaven falls down before the Lamb - Revelation 5:8

15. Jesus Created ALL things - Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2, John 1:3, Ephesians 3:9 ....God created all things - Acts 14:15, Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 42:5. Jesus is God

16. Jesus also made the world - John 1:10. Jesus is God - Isaiah 44:18

17. Jesus created all things for HIMSELF - Colossians 1:16, Proverbs 16:4(Jesus is God)

18. By Jesus all things consist - Colossians 1:17

19. Jesus upholds all things - Hebrews 1:3

20. Jesus is before all things - Colossians 1:17

21. Jesus rules heaven and earth - Matthew 28:18. Jesus is God - II Chronicles 29:11

22. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath - Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5

23. Jesus called Himself the Great "I AM" - John 8:58, John 8:24...a quote from Exodus 3:14

24. In the body of Jesus dwells the fullness of the Godhead - Colossians 2:9

25. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are THREE and they are ONE - I John 5:7

26. And this is all why Jesus is EQUAL WITH GOD - Philippians 2:6

27. Jesus was "God manifest in the flesh" - I Timothy 3:16

28. God was in Christ - Galatians 3:17, II Corinthians 5:19

29. Jesus is the Power of God and the Wisdom of God - I Corinthians 1:24

30. Jesus "only" hath immortality - I Timothy 6:16

31. Jesus is Lord of the living and the dead - Romans 14:9

32. Jesus is called the Saviour - Luke 2:11, Titus 1:4, Titus 2:13, Titus 3:3, II Peter 1:1, II Peter 1:11, II Peter 2:20, II Peter 3:18, I John 4:14

33. Only Jehovah God alone is the Saviour - Isaiah 43:11, Isaiah 45:15 , Hosea 13:4, I Timothy 2:2, Jude 1:25...that means Jesus is God.

34. Jesus ALONE is the Great Judge - John 5:22. The Judge is God - Hebrews 12:23, Revelation 18:8, Hebrews 13:4, Romans 2:3,5 - Jesus is God. All the verses in the Bible that talk about God being the Judge refer to Jesus, since He alone judges. The Father
judges no man - John 5:22.

35. Jesus has the keys of hell and of death - Revelation 1:18. The one that can cast into hell is to be FEARED - Matthew 10:28, Luke 12:5 Only God is to be feared - Rev 14:7

36. Jesus is from EVERLASTING - Micah 5:2, Isaiah 9:6

37. Jesus has NO BEGINNING of days - Hebrews 7:3

38. Jesus is the SAME, yesterday, today and forever - Hebrews 13:8. A quote from Psalm 102:27. Jesus is God.

39. Jesus' is in the midst or the center of the throne of God - Rev 1:6

40. Jesus has the Greatest Name above every name ever named - Philippians 2:9

41. Jesus' name is the Greatest in the world to come as well - Ephesians 1:21

42. And it is before name of JESUS, not any other name including Jehovah, that the peoples of the earth and heaven and bowing before - Philippians 2:10. Jesus is God - Isaiah 45:22-23

43. Only by the name JESUS can one be saved - Acts 4:10-12

44. Jesus is called the Alpha and Omega - Revelation 1:11

45. Jesus who is the Alpha and Omega is the ALMIGHTY - Revelation 1:7-8

46. Jesus is called the King of kings - I Timothy 6:15. Jesus is the King - Zechariah 9:9. The King is God - I Timothy 1:17. Jesus is God

47. Jesus is called Lord of lords - I Timothy 6:15. God is called Lord of lords - Deut 10:17. Jesus is God

48. Christ is called the ROCK - I Corinthians 10:4. That is who Israel followed. The ROCK who Israel followed was GOD - Deut 32:3-4. - God is the Rock - Psalm 18:2 and only God is the Rock - Psalm 18:31. Christ is God.

49. Jesus calls Himself the FIRST AND THE LAST - Revelation 1:11,17. Only GOD is the FIRST AND THE LAST - Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 48:12. Jesus is God.

50. Jesus knows all things (OMNIPOTENT) - John 2:24-25, John 4:29, John 6:64, John 16:30

51. Jesus is OMNIPRESENT - Matthew 18:20, Matthew 28:20

52. Jesus' body fills all (is omnipresent) - Ephesians 1:23

53. Jesus knows the hearts of men - Revelation 2:23

54. Jesus dwells in the hearts - Ephesians 3:17

55. And "liveth" in the believers - Galatians 2:20

56. Jesus knows the thoughts of men - Matthew 9:4, Luke 6:8

57. And Jesus will judge the "secrets" of men - Romans 2:16

58. God shed His blood - Acts 20:28

59. The cross is the "power of God" - I Corinthians 1:17-18

60. Jesus called the Kingdom of God His Kingdom - John 18:36

61. Jesus is the "Deliverer" of the believers from the wrath of God - I Thessalonians 1:10, Romans 11:26. Only God is the Deliverer from the wrath of God - II Corinthians 1:9-10

62. In Jesus' name we TRUST - Ephesians 1:12-13, Matthew 12:21, Philippians 2:19. Only in God do we trust - Psalm 4:5, 7:1, 31:1, 73:28, Isaiah 26:4. Jesus is God.

63. Jesus is the TRUTH - John 14:6. Jesus is God - Psalm 31:5

64. Jesus sent the prophets - Matthew 23:34...God sent the prophets - Jeremiah 7:25. Jesus is God who sent the prophets.

65. Jesus is the Stone of stumbling - I Peter 2:8. A prophesy from Isaiah 8:13-14. God is the stone of stumbling. Jesus is God.

66. God is the fountain of living waters - Jeremiah 17:13....Jesus is the fountain of living waters - John 4:10-14

67. Jesus brings reward to the wicked for their works - Matthew 16:27. Jesus is God - Psalm 54:4-5, II Samuel 3:39.

68. The reward of salvation is "with Jesus" - Revelation 22:12. Jesus is God - Isaiah 62:11, Isaiah 40:10

69. Jesus gave power to His people - Luke 9:1. Jesus is God - Psalm 68:35

70. Jesus is called the HOLY ONE - Acts 3:14. Jesus is God - Isaiah 30:15, Isaiah 40:25, Isaiah 41:14, Isaiah 43:15

71. Jesus is the light - John 8:12. Jesus is God - Psalm 27:1

72. Jesus is the Husband of believers - Revelation 19:7,9, 21:2, 21:9. Jesus is God - Isaiah 54:5

73. Jesus gives us rest - Matthew 11:28. Jesus is God - Exodus 33:14

74. Jesus gathers the sheep - John 10:16. Jesus is God - Ezekiel 34:11

75. Jesus seeks and saves that which is lost - Luke 19:10. Jesus is God - Ezekiel 34:16

(Continued in next post):
(Article source link provided at the end of next post):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

76. Jesus is the Shepherd - John 10:11,14. Jesus is God - Psalm 23:1

77. Jesus feeds the people and causes them to sit down - Mark 8:5-10, Matthew 14:19-21. Jesus is God - Ezekiel 34:15

78. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin - I John 1:7. God cleanses from sin - Psalm 51:2, Ezekiel 36:25.. Jesus is God

79. Redemption is from Jesus Christ - Romans 3:24, Colossians 1:14. Redemption is from God - Psalm 130:7. Jesus is God

80. Christ is the Redeemer - Galatians 4:5, Galatians 3:13, Revelation 5:9, Titus 2:14. God is the Redeemer - Jeremiah 31:11, Isaiah 41:14, Isaiah 44:22, Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 44:24. Jesus is God

81. Jesus wrote new commandments with His finger - John 8:5-9. This is to show that He is God who wrote the 10 commandments with His finger - Exodus 31:18

82. The Bible declares God. That God is Jesus who is written in all the scriptures - Luke 24:27, Luke 24:44, John 5:39, John 5:46

83. ALL things are by Jesus - I Corinthians 8:6

84. John the Baptist, the voice in the wilderness prepared the coming of the Lord - Matthew 3:3. A quote from Isaiah 40:3...He prepared the coming of Jehovah God!!!!

85. Jesus forgave sin - Matthew 9:2, Mark 2:5....and only GOD can forgive sins - Mark 2:7. Only God can forgive sin where they are atoned for it. Jesus is God.

86. Jesus forgave sins and healed diseases - Matthew 9:6. Only God can do that - Psalm 103:3

87. Jesus calmed the storm - Matthew 8:26...Only God can - Psalm 107:25

88. God was pierced - Zechariah 12:10...quoted again in John 19:37. Jesus is God

89. God was priced at 30 pieces of silver - Zechariah 11:12-13...quoted again in Matthew 27:9....Jesus is God.

90. Jesus returns again with His saints - I Thess. 3:13. A fulfillment of Zechariah 14:5 that says GOD will come with His saints. Jesus is God.

91. The Jews wanted Jesus killed for the crime of Blasphemy - Matthew 26:65. In their minds He claimed to be God - John 10:33, and Equal with God - John 5:18 and forgave as only God can do - Mark 2:7, Luke 5:21...that was blasphemy is their eyes - Mark 2:7,
Luke 5:21. Jesus by His words and actions claimed to be God...and that is why He was found guilty by the Jews of blasphemy.

92. Jesus raised Himself from the dead - John 2:19-21. John 10:17-18

93. Jesus will raise all the dead - John 6:39-40,44. God raises the dead both physically and spiritually - Ezekiel 37:12-14. Jesus is God

94. The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are one and the same. Christ is God - Romans 8:9

95. Jesus quickens (which means to make alive) - John 5:21. Only God can make someone alive - Ezekiel 37:5-6,9. Only God can quicken - Psalm 80:18. Jesus is God.

96. One cannot serve God and mammon - Matthew 6:24. Only God is to be served - Romans 1:9. The One we serve is Jesus Christ - Colossians 3:24.

97. Jesus is the one who "justifies" - Galatians 2:17. ONLY GOD can justifieth - Romans 8:33. Jesus is God.

98. Jesus "reveals" truth - Luke 10:22, Matthew 11:27. Only GOD can reveal truth - Philippians 3:15, I Corinthians 2:10. Jesus is God.

99. God will not share His glory with another - Isaiah 42:8, 48:11. But the Father glorifies the Son - John 17:1,5, John 12:23, John 13:31-32. Jesus is God and He is ONE with the Father.

100. ONLY in the name of JESUS is their salvation. There is salvation is NONE OTHER - Acts 4:10-12, II Timothy 2:10. And salvation belongs to GOD - Psalm 3:8, Jonah 2:9, Lamentations 3:26, Isaiah 52:10, Psalm 51:14. Since only in the name of Jesus is there
salvation and salvation belongs to God, that simply means Jesus is God.

101. Jesus chooses the elect - John 15:16. Jesus is God - I Thess. 2:13, I Cor. 1:27

102. Men are Jesus' disciples - John 13:35, John 15:8. Jesus is God - Isaiah 8:16

103. Jesus' voice is the sound of many waters - Revelation 1:15. Jesus is Almighty God - Ezekiel 43:2.

104. Jesus' feet are like fine brass - Revelation 1:15. Jesus is God - Ezekiel 1:7, Ezekiel 1:28

105. Jesus' name is the Word of God - Revelation 19:13

106. All grace comes from God - I Peter 5:10. Jesus is that God where all grace comes from - Rev 22:21, Romans 16:20, I Thess. 5:28, II Thess. 3:18

107. Jesus comes with clouds - Rev 1:7, Matthew 24:30 - Jesus is God - Isaiah 19:1, Jeremiah 4:13, Numbers 11:25

108. Jesus is called God - John 1:1, Hebrews 1:8

109. Jesus is called The Great God - Titus 2:13

110. Jesus is called The Mighty God - Isaiah 9:6

111. Jesus is called The True God - I John 5:20

112. Jesus is "God with us" - Matthew 1:21

113. Jesus is called "My God" - John 20:28. Since there is "no other God" - Isaiah 45:5,21-22..that means Jesus is that God.

114. Jesus is called "our hope" - I Timothy 1:1. We hope in Jesus - I Cor. 15:19. We are to only hope in God - I Peter 1:21, Psalm 38:15. Jesus is God.

115. Christ is our life - Colossians 3:4. Jesus is God - Psalm 42:8

116. Jesus is called Faithful - Revelation 19:11. Jesus is God - Deut 7:9

117. Jesus is called True - Revelation 19:11. Jesus is God - Romans 3:4

118. Israel temped Christ - I Corinthians 10:9. Jesus is God - Deut 6:16, Numbers 14:22.

119. Christ sent serpents and destroyed Israel - I Cor 10:9. Jesus is God - Numbers 21:6-7

120. Jesus rebukes and chastens - Revelation 3:19 - Jesus is God - Hebrews 12:5-7, Proverbs 3:11-12.

121. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of faith - Hebrews 12:2

122. God said "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness" - Genesis 1:26. The plurality refers to the Trinity. This is not talking about the angels or heavenly host. Angels cannot create life. Secondly, nowhere is it indicated that angels are made in the image of
God. Third, there is no indication that mankind is created in the image of angels.

123. The plurality of the Trinity is also referred to in Genesis 3:22 and Isaiah 6:8. Jesus is God.

124. Before Jesus became man, He had glory with the Father before the world was - John 17:5

125. All things are given into Jesus' hand - John 3:35

126. Jesus is described as "WHICH WAS" dead, and "IS" alive - Revelation 2:8. The one who "which was" and "which is" is Almighty God - Revelation 4:8, Revelation 1:8. Jesus is God.

127. The "Great Day" of the Wrath of the Lamb - Revelation 6:16-17 is the "Great Day" of God Almighty - Revelation 16:14. Jesus is the Lamb who is God Almighty.

128. Jesus is the King - I Timothy 6:15, John 18:37. Jesus is the King who is called the "only wise God" - I Timothy 1:17

129. Jesus is called the "Just One" - Acts 22:14. Jesus is God - Isaiah 45:21

130. Jesus "gives" repentance - Acts 5:31, Acts 3:26. Jesus is God - II Timothy 2:25

131. Jesus reconciled all things to Himself - Colossians 1:20. Jesus is God - Romans 5:18-19

132. Jesus brings Judgment on the churches in Revelation 2 and 3. Jesus is God - Hebrews 10:30, Deuteronomy 32:35-36

133. God has a Father - Revelation 1:6. That God is Jesus Christ.

134. Jesus stilled the waves and rules the sea- Matthew 8:26-27, Mark 4:39-41. Jesus is God - Psalm 89:8-9

135. Jesus has eyes that are sent forth into all the earth - Revelation 5:6 - Jesus is God - II Chronicles 16:9

136. To know the love of Christ is to be filled with the fulness of God - Ephesians 3:19

137. Christ strengthens the believers - Philippians 4:13. Christ is God - Isaiah 40:29, Isaiah 41:10

138. In Christ's presence is fullness of joy - John 15:11. Jesus is God - Psalm 16:11

139. To see Jesus is to see the Father and to hate Jesus is to hate the Father as well - John 15:24, John 15:23

140. Jesus turns the water into wine - John 2:7-11. A creative act to show that Jesus is Creator God.

141. Jesus walks on water - John 6:19, Matthew 14:26, Mark 6:48 - Jesus is God - Psalm 93:4, Psalm 95:5, Psalm 72:8, Job 9:8

142. Jesus causes the blind to see - Matthew 9:27-30, Matthew 11:5, Mark 8:22-26, Mark 10:51-52. Jesus is God - Psalm 146:8, Isaiah 35:4-5

143. Jesus causes the deaf to hear - Matthew 11:5, Mark 7:32, Mark 7:37 - Jesus is God - Isaiah 35:4-5, Isaiah 43:7-8

144. Jesus causes the dumb to speak - Matthew 9:32-33, Matt 15:31, Mark 7:37, Luke 11:14. Jesus is God - Isaiah 36:6, Ezekiel 24:27, Ezekiel 33:22

145. Jesus causes the lame to walk - Matthew 11:5, Mark 2:11, Luke 7:22 - Jesus is God - Isaiah 35:6

146. Jesus' face shines as the sun - Matthew 17:2. Jesus is God - Psalm 84:11, Malachi 4:2

147. Jesus will inherit all nations - Psalm 2:7-8. Jesus is God - Psalm 82:8

148. Jesus will rule all nations with a rod of iron - Revelation 12:5. Jesus is God - Isaiah 14:5-6

149. Jesus will smite all nations with a rod or iron. He is the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God - Revelation 19:15. He is Almighty God who brings wrath.

150. Jesus and His Father established the ends of the earth - Proverbs 30:4

151. Jesus was without sin - II Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15, I Peter 2:22. Only God is without sin - Deuteronomy 32:4. Jesus is God

152. Jesus is ABOVE ALL - John 3:31

153. Jesus is GOD OVER ALL - Romans 9:5

154. Jesus is LORD OF ALL - Acts 10:36

155. The Lord God sent His angel to John - Rev 22:6. It is Jesus that sent His angel - Rev 22:16. Jesus is the Lord God.

156. Jesus is called the "Lord of Glory" - I Corinthians 2:8. Jesus is YHWH God - Psalm 24:8-10

157. Jesus gets glory now and forever - II Peter 3:18

158. The Father calls Jesus "LORD" who made heaven and earth - Hebrews 1:10

159. Heaven is God's throne and earth His FOOTSTOOL - Isaiah 66:1, Matthew 5:34-35. Jesus is God - Matthew 22:44, Hebrews 1:13

160. Every knee shall bow, and "every tongue" shall confess to GOD - Romans 14:11. The God "every tongue" is confessing to is JESUS CHRIST - Philippians 2:11
Back


Source:
https://www.scionofzion.com/160_reasons.htm
(Note: I agree with what is written in this article; It does not mean I agree with everything this author or website says).

 

[Grailhunter]

76. Jesus is the Shepherd - John 10:11,14. Jesus is God - Psalm 23:1


160. Every knee shall bow, and "every tongue" shall confess to GOD - Romans 14:11. The God "every tongue" is confessing to is JESUS CHRIST - Philippians 2:11
Back


Source:
https://www.scionofzion.com/160_reasons.htm
(Note: I agree with what is written in this article; It does not mean I agree with everything this author or website says).

I understand the belief. I do not believe that the Son of God is God the Father. I do not believe He begot Himself or that He was very pleased with Himself or that God the Father was crucified on the cross. I gave you the link to explain all that.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

#2. Tritheism
(Which is a belief held by Mormons).

This says that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct gods. This is polytheism or the worship of more than one God. But the Bible makes it clear that the Lord our God is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4).​

Then there is the correct view of the Trinity:

The Lord our God exists as one God, but He exists as three distinct persons (i.e. The Father, the Word (Christ), and the Holy Ghost). All three persons co-existed as one God for all eternity. Also, in the Trinity, the Father and the Son can dwell within one another despite their distinctiveness as persons within the Godhead, too. For Jesus said He dwells in the Father and the Father dwells in Him (John 14:10) (John 17:21).

This ^ is inaccurate. "Mormons" are monotheists, and actually match your extensive post about Trinitarism. The points of difference between LDS Christian beliefs and Trinitarian beliefs aren't touched upon in this lengthy post but lie in things like statements in the Athanasian Creed.

Posts like the above (and yes I realize you're not the author) this teach "Mormons" that "the Trinity = belief that the Father, Son, and Spirit are one person and Christ talks to Himself (aka modulism)".

It's important to be accurate in our statements not just to understand others, but to be understood ourselves.

An aside, your link is broken.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you take passages like 2 Timothy 3:16-17 are to be read literally or metaphorically or it doesn't really matter?

You would not think so, but this is the first thing a cult leader will ask you. Because they have a set of scriptures they what to feed you.

This simply sounds like a baseless ad hominem. Attack the person or individual and not deal with what the passage is actually saying. What cult leaders use this passage and is it famous for them to do so? Please provide the quotes. If they use this passage, does that mean Christians cannot use this passage to defend the faith? If you disagree, why is that so? What do you believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is saying?

Obviously the devil can quote Scripture, but he distorts it when he does.
Our Lord Jesus quoted Scripture to defeat the devil and He quote it in a way that was correct and good.

But as a whole I believe the Bible is true.

This sounds like you don't believe the whole Bible is true.
What parts do you not believe in?
Usually liberals do not regard all of the Bible as true.
Do you reject a Young Earth?
Do you reject that there was a global flood?
Do you support the right to abortion?
Do you support the idea of sodomy?
While you may not believe such things, usually it goes hand in hand with those who treat the Bible liberally.

Then again there were things they believed and said that were not true. The Apostles said and believed they were living in the last days and Christ would return soon...that did not happen.

When God speaks of His return being soon (within His Word) this was not from our perspective of time, but from God's perspective of time. A thousand years is a day to God. God sees the end from the beginning. All things are correct and true in the Bible and it is men's fallible human reasoning that may reject it or not believe it in any place. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

When did you accept Jesus as your Savior? Was it not by Scripture that you accepted Jesus? Did the Bible come alive for you after that point?

This is a weird question. Do you think it is a qualifying question? Look I am going to give you a heads up. When I was tooling around on my Radio Flyer tricycle in diapers....I knew and loved Christ. By the time I was 15 years old I was attending a Christian college. I have been educated in five countries regarding the Bible, theology, the languages, and the history and culture. I have smashed cults so do not give me any cult talk.

It's not a weird question. It's a question on whether you had a spiritual experience with God in where you were once on the road to hell because of your sinful life and then the Lord came into your life and you fell before His grace and you were changed on a radically spiritual level. This is being born again. Jesus said, “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5).

Were you born of the Spirit and of water? If so... can you explain your experience of what that was for you?

It was grouped in a bunch of silliness. I never thought you were Catholic, but the three persons in one God formula and the doctrine of Original Sin comes from the Catholics.

The Catholic religion was formed sometime in 325AD.

Before that time, 1 John 5:7 which teaches the Trinity was spoken about by believers.

200 AD Tertullian wrote "which three are one" based on the verse in his Against Praxeas, chapter 25.
250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)

All your Modern bibles are based on the Nestle and Aland Greek New Testament text which had a Catholic cardinal as one of it’s editors.
This can be confirmed by simply reading Wikipedia on the Nestle and Aland.

So all your Modern English Bibles (Which is not a King James Bible) removes 1 John 5:7 and they are Catholic influenced bibles.
This is a fact that is not under even debate. There is so much evidence confirming this it is not even funny.

Catholics actually forbid their adherents to read the King James Bible in one of their writings that was changed or updated to not say that anymore.
But the Catholics always hated the King James Bible. They tried to stop King James and his translation with a super bomb with a man named Guy Fawkes. Try studying the history of the KJB and you will see such things for yourself.

Yes we use it now because it is a book. But we do not insert it into the scriptures as theology. The scriptures were not in the form of books originally.

You talk to me like I am a 2 year old Christian. Please stop that. Many believers know that the Holy Bible is a recent invention in history.

The Bible in book form vs. it being in manuscript form does not change the meaning of the words.

First off, the Bible does not refer to the Godhead as three persons in one God. Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, Colossians 2:9 are not discussing three persons in one God.

Sure it does. The Godhead can be seen in nature as I already demonstrated. There are three verses that use the word Godhead in the Bible. The Godhead is said to not be compared to three materials (i.e. gold, silver, stone in idols made by men).

Secondly the King James Version of the Bible is the most error ridden translation....next to the Geneva Bible.

Whether you realize it or not, liberals generally have rejected the King James Bible throughout history. No doubt they have come up with carnal worldly explanations as to how God’s Word has errors in it. But faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Once a person believes the Bible, then they are able to see it for what it is (i.e. a spiritual book that has the fingerprints of GOD upon it).

 

[JesusFan1]

Pinseeker, RC Sproul was asked the question I posed to you,
Why did Adam sin without having a supposed totally depraved sinful nature.
Adam had to,have sinned against God being created in the image of God. Adam was created upright.

Pinseeker, are you aware of RC Sproul's answer?
He said what I said!
That it doesn't make sense that Adam sinned against God!
RC, said we simply do not understand why Adam in his perfect upright godly righteous state would choose to rebel against God.

But you being Pinseeker, think you know more than RC Sproul on the subject.

Well, I'm sorry Pinseeker but RC Sproul makes logical sense by saying it does not make sense based on calvinist doctrine why Adam sinned against God.
Therefore your explanation does not give a sound logical answer to this problem.
Unfortunately you cannot see your answer does not fit in with calvinist theology of why men sin.

As I have said multiple times now,
Calvinism teaches men sin because they have a "sin nature".
Totally depraved, wicked immoral reprobates that only desire evil. Their hearts are corrupt opposite of all good.

Yet Adam was righteous as God is righteous!
Yet totally lacking this "sinful nature " Adam chose with his freewill to sin against God.
Just as the angels in heaven did.

Does Adam's sin prove give the evidence needed for Calvinism to be Biblical?

No! Just the opposite!
It proves NO SIN NATURE IS NEEDED FOR MAN TO COMMIT SIN!!!!

Therefore, MAN SINS FOR THE SAME REASON ADAM SINNED!
Because of his own freewill!

The Bible teaches Adam was created upright in the image of God yet sinned.
The Bible teaches ALL men are created in the image of God yet CHOOSE BY FREWILL To sin against God.

btw, The very famous Calvinist Matt Slick who's website is CARM.
Mr. Slick teaches that according to calvinism man has NO freewill to choose to be saved.

Pinseeker says man does have freewill except when he changes his story and says we do not.

The story of Adam and Eve disprove the need to have a "sinful nature" for the cause of mans rebellion against God ie sin.

Calvinist (most) think if not a calvinist then automatically you must be Arminian.
I am neither.
I am a Christian, who only uses the Bible with its Inspired writers teachings to interpret the Bible.
I do not need Arminian's writings to understand the word.
Certainly cannot understand the Bible if it is learned through the error's of John Calvin.

Fact: there is no depraved sin nature we inherit from Adam.
All sin, while being just as Adam, created upright in the image of God,

Ecclesiastes 7:29
Truly, this only I have found:
That God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.

This is all of mankind Solomon is speaking of.
Not the twisting of the verse calvinist say is only Adam. It says man not Adam.

Pinseeker admits no need for the doctrine of inherited sin necessary to be lost.
It can be as Adam. Saved or lost by choice ie freewill,

Adam and Eve had real free will, but all save Jesus do not have that remaining since the fall, as we all save Jesus have a sin nature and that restricts/limits what we are now free to choose!

 

[PinSeeker]

Neither of those verses support what you claim.

In your opinion. But they do.

One merely looks back at what God has done for the saints. Those God knew in times past ( those who agreed to be his) he chose to be confirmed to Jesus' image.

No, you misunderstand what it means for God to have known us before the foundation of the world. 'Known' is used in the sense that it is synonymous with 'loved.' And we love because He first loved us (1 John 4).

There's nothing there about man's will not playing a part.

I absolutely agree, but there is definitely something that says it does not depend on man's will, but on God and His mercy (Romans 9:16).

This is showing God keeps his promises, not that we have no choice in the matter. Why would you think that the calling being irrevocable means we can't reject the calling?

Renniks, the definition of 'irrevocable' is, "not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final." And again, Paul, just shortly before that in his letter to the church in Rome, has written:

"For those whom He foreknew (foreloved) He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified." (Romans 8:29-30)​

There is no breaking this chain, no thwarting of God's purposes. Job says:

"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted." (Job 42:2)​

As Paul says to the Philippians, "He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

If God, by His Spirit, calls us, it's not that we "can't reject" His calling, it's that we will not reject His calling, but rather willingly and freely and joyfully accept it.

Again this just means God does his part.

Right, well "His part" inevitably brings on, without fail, the rest.

Does anyone complete his calling perfectly?

Not in and of himself, no, but, as Paul says, God will bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). And James says we are being made ~ so it's a work in progress; we call it sanctification ~ perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

If he doesn't is that God's fault?

He does, by God's power. God's purposes cannot be thwarted. So this question is non sequitur.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I understand the belief. I do not believe that the Son of God is God the Father. I do not believe He begot Himself or that He was very pleased with Himself or that God the Father was crucified on the cross. I gave you the link to explain all that.

No. That would be Modalism. Modalism teaches that God just puts on a mode or mask to pretend to be the different persons of the Godhead or Trinity. Modalists don’t believe in any real distinction of persons in the Godhead or Trinity. I know. I talked with them both online and in person over the years.

Think of the Trinity as sort of like those paper cut-outs of a chain of people holding hands. They are connected by holding their hands and yet they are distinct in appearance as a person in shape when you look at them. Granted, I am not saying God is connected at the hands or anything but the point is to illustrated the concept is possible. God has not revealed the intricate details of what this connection looks like in the Bible plainly for all to see but we know that there is a plurality to God even in Genesis 1. Let US, make man in OUR image, and OUR likeness. So in Genesis 1: We see three statements suggesting the plurality (three persons) as a part of the existence of the one true GOD.

God is one and yet He exists also as three distinct persons. Life is full of what appears to be contradictions to us, but if properly understood, they are not contradictions at all. I understand the Trinity just fine and yet folks who reject the Trinity really do not understand what I am saying about the Trinity (in most cases).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This ^ is inaccurate. "Mormons" are monotheists, and actually match your extensive post about Trinitarism. The points of difference between LDS Christian beliefs and Trinitarian beliefs aren't touched upon in this lengthy post but lie in things like statements in the Athanasian Creed.

Posts like the above (and yes I realize you're not the author) this teach "Mormons" that "the Trinity = belief that the Father, Son, and Spirit are one person and Christ talks to Himself (aka modulism)".

It's important to be accurate in our statements not just to understand others, but to be understood ourselves.

An aside, your link is broken.

Come on. Spiritual underwear. Spiritual underwear. It’s silly.
How can one follow such wackiness?
I never understood it. It reminds me of those folks who put tin foil on their head to communicate to aliens (Which in reality are demons).

Anyways: The Book of Mormon refers in several passages to God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost as “one God,” but Latter-day Saints understand this to mean they are one in mind, purpose, will, and intention. Their unity is the same unity of which Christ spoke in his high-priestly prayer following the Last Supper: that his disciples may “be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us” (John 17:21). Hence, Latter-day Saints rarely use the term Trinity, but prefer the title Godhead to refer to the three divine beings who govern our universe in perfect oneness.” [emphasis in original] (3 – Porter, “Is Mormonism Christian?”)

Do Mormons believe in the Trinity?

No. As the religion scholar Gerald R. McDermott notes, “At the end of his life, in his King Follett funeral sermon (1844), Joseph Smith prophesied against the Trinity, saying that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Gods.” (3 – McDermott, “Is Mormonism Christian?)

Source:
Mormonism is NOT Christianity…..

 

[PinSeeker]

Adam and Eve had real free will, but all save Jesus do not have that remaining since the fall, as we all save Jesus have a sin nature and that restricts/limits what we are now free to choose!

I sort of disagree with this, JF1. We have free will, but it is in bondage to sin. This is the death we are born into. I know you're aware of this, but some are not. It might be helpful to read what Jesus says to the Jews in John 10:22-29...

At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."

Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."​

Three points:

1. In this statement, Jesus affirms the fact that they don't believe because they are not among His sheep, those whom the Father as given Him. It is not the other way around; it is not that they are not among His sheep because they don't believe. No, again, they don't believe because they are not among His sheep, those whom the Father as given Him. Clearly, our belief in Jesus does not depend on us and our willing, but on God, which Paul states very clearly in Romans 9:16.

2. Also, He says that if we are among His sheep, we hear His voice, and he knows us, and we willingly follow Him.

3. And, as if that's not enough, He also affirms here that we will never be lost again, will never perish... because no one ~ no one ~ is able to take them away from Him, because no one can "snatch them away from the Father" ~ or Him, because He and the Father are one. His purposes cannot be thwarted.

Just this one little statement from Jesus refutes ~ irrefutably ~ pretty much everything... um, some posters... ... are saying in this thread, and in the "OSAS is Satanic!" thread, the "Jesus is not God" thread, the and elsewhere. All of that is refuted here by Jesus Himself. All of it.

Glory be to our great God for His amazing grace, right? Right?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Come on. Spiritual underwear. Spiritual underwear. It’s silly.
How can one follow such wackiness?
I never understood it. It reminds me of those folks who put tin foil on their head to communicate to aliens (Which in reality are demons).

Anyways: The Book of Mormon refers in several passages to God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost as “one God,” but Latter-day Saints understand this to mean they are one in mind, purpose, will, and intention. Their unity is the same unity of which Christ spoke in his high-priestly prayer following the Last Supper: that his disciples may “be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us” (John 17:21). Hence, Latter-day Saints rarely use the term Trinity, but prefer the title Godhead to refer to the three divine beings who govern our universe in perfect oneness.” [emphasis in original] (3 – Porter, “Is Mormonism Christian?”)

Do Mormons believe in the Trinity?

No. As the religion scholar Gerald R. McDermott notes, “At the end of his life, in his King Follett funeral sermon (1844), Joseph Smith prophesied against the Trinity, saying that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Gods.” (3 – McDermott, “Is Mormonism Christian?)

Source:
Mormonism is NOT Christianity…..

Putting aside the totally inaccurate and unneeded mockery of your post, The post you are quoting is also hugely inaccurate and only teach both sides had information (LDS Christians have HUGE misconceptions about Trinitrians due posts like this).

Facts: LDS Christians believe that Christ is divine Son of God. He, the Father, and Spirit are 3 different persons. They are 1 God. For example, You can’t follow the Son and rebel against the Father. They have that same one shared will, goodness, glory, mercy, justice, power, etc. The Father, Son, and Spirit each are eternal and have always existed.

Differneces with the Creedal version of the Trinity include statements like the Athanasain Creed’s state a on a shared substance.

 

[Grailhunter]

Before that time, 1 John 5:7 which teaches the Trinity was spoken about by believers.

The whole New Testament gives examples of the Trinity....just not the three persons in one God formula....cherry picking scriptures.

All your Modern bibles are based on the Nestle and Aland Greek New Testament text which had a Catholic cardinal as one of it’s editors.
This can be confirmed by simply reading Wikipedia on the Nestle and Aland.

So all your Modern English Bibles (Which is not a King James Bible) removes 1 John 5:7 and they are Catholic influenced bibles.
This is a fact that is not under even debate. There is so much evidence confirming this it is not even funny.

Catholics actually forbid their adherents to read the King James Bible in one of their writings that was changed or updated to not say that anymore.
But the Catholics always hated the King James Bible. They tried to stop King James and his translation with a super bomb with a man named Guy Fawkes. Try studying the history of the KJB and you will see such things for yourself.

You obvious have a distorted view of the history of all this.
Since the 1600 there have been more discoveries of the scriptures....Modern Bibles are looking at more scriptures and older scriptures. Again the King James Bible is the most error ridden Bible in print.

Sure it does. The Godhead can be seen in nature as I already demonstrated. There are three verses that use the word Godhead in the Bible. The Godhead is said to not be compared to three materials (i.e. gold, silver, stone in idols made by men).

I have already addressed this. The three scriptures that mention the Godhead are not talking about the three persons in one God formula.

Whether you realize it or not, liberals generally have rejected the King James Bible throughout history. No doubt they have come up with carnal worldly explanations as to how God’s Word has errors in it. But faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Once a person believes the Bible, then they are able to see it for what it is (i.e. a spiritual book that has the fingerprints of GOD upon it).

Well I am not a liberal....Just looking for the truth....not a sad attempt to but together a Bible. So many errors it is hard to count.