John Calvin and Calvinism.

[Grailhunter]

Okay. I have managed to try and sift through the clutter of your endless posts.
It sounds like you believe in three separate gods (Tritheism).
So then that is what you believe then?
Simply type... Y for yes,
or N... for no.
If not... have a great day, friend.

You wish it would be as simple as yes and no. Look at Christ's explaination.
Here it is....do we know the exact connection between the Gods? Could we comprehend that exact connection? Is there a spiritual connection? I would say yes.

The storyline of the Gospels illustrates how God the Father and God the Son relate to each other. Very easy to read. Here is just few tiny morsels of truth.
God did not say He begot Himself.
At Christ's baptism God did say He was pleased with Himself.
God the Son did the will of God the Father....not His own will....two separate wills.
God the Son did not know when the end would come, but God the Father did....two minds
God the Son sits on the right hand of God the Father. Two "bodies"
A God that is a Father and a God that is a Son.
God the Son called God the Father, His God.

Christ called His Father, His God and said that the Father is greater than I and when asked by the mother of James and John if they could sit on either side of Christ, He said it was not His to give.

(Matt. 27:46)? After Jesus resurrection from the dead, he appears to Mary Magdalene, and she immediately clings to Him. In response Jesus says to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God’”

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Matthew 20:20-23 The mother of Zebedee’s children (James and John) came to Jesus with her sons. She got down on her knees before Jesus to ask something of Him. 21 He said to her, “What do you want?” She said, “Say that my two sons may sit, one at Your right side and one at Your left side, when You are King.” 22 Jesus said to her, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to take the suffering that I am about to take? (*Are you able to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?)” They said, “Yes, we are able.” 23 He said to them, “You will suffer as I will suffer. But the places at My right side and at My left side are not Mine to give. Whoever My Father says will have those places.”

Now we can give each other scriptures to support our beliefs until the cows come home and we are not going to convince each other of anything...so this is enough.

 

[PinSeeker]

You know Job was wrong about a lot of things right?

LOL! Yes, but I think God would have corrected him there if he was mistaken. That's kind of the point of God having just asked him four chapters worth of unanswerable questions. Just a sampling :

Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:

“Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to Me. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements ~ surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut in the sea with doors when it burst out from the womb, when I made clouds its garment and thick darkness its swaddling band, and prescribed limits for it and set bars and doors, and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed’?" (Job 38:1-11)

And then Job 42:1-6...

"Then Job answered the LORD and said: 'I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. ...I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know... I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.'”

My goodness.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Bible Highlighter

Big difference in the STATE of the unregenerate sinning as opposed to believers committing ACTS of sin...unless, of course, you believe in sinless perfection and that the sinful nature is somehow miraculously eradicated, surgically removed?
Yes or no?
Blessings
J.

I believe many sins can condemn us if they are not confessed and or forsaken (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:7, Proverbs 28:13).
But there are sins that do not lead unto spiritual death, though. So I see Sinless Perfection as putting away sins such as sins that do not lead unto death (and not just sins unto death alone). So Sinless Perfection is not exactly a salvation issue (because it would include putting away sins NOT unto death). But believers do need to in time overcome “sins unto death” in this life time or they are not going to make it into God’s Kingdom. But only God can determine this for each believer and in knowing their heart and at what point in their life they need to achieve this. It also takes time to mature in the Lord and to overcome sin for most believers. This is what I believe God’s grace is for (See: Ephesians 5:25-27, and Titus 2:14).

Sins Not Unto Death:

Important Note:
Please keep in mind that I am not trying to trivialize sin. I believe after we are saved by God's grace that we must live holy as a part of God's plan of salvation. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Believers cannot justify sin that leads to spiritual death, condemnation, or hellfire. For I believe we should obey the Lord in all things. For I want to stress that there are grievous sins (or death sins) like murder, hate, adultery, lying, etc. that can lead even a believer to being condemned in the Lake of Fire if such sins are not repented of (i.e. if these sins are not confessed or forsaken). I am not Catholic or Orthodox. I just believe the Bible and the Bible alone as my final Word of authority.

Anyways,...

​

Here is my biblical case for sins that do not lead unto death:

​

#1. 1 John 5:17 mentions the "sin not unto death."

In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin (Note: Grievous sin are sins the Bible warns with punishment by hellfire, or spiritual death, etc.; These would be sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, etc.). If these sins are confessed with the intention of forsaking them (so as to overcome them), the individual is not abiding in spiritual death.

#2. Paul ignores the warnings of the Spirit and Psalms 19:12.
Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. The Least of These Commands in Matthew 5:19.
We know that 1 John 5:16-17 declares that there is a sin not unto death. So if this is the case, we should expect to see other testimonies of this kind of thing in God's Word.

“Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:19).
​

This was said by the Lord Jesus at the sermon on the mount. Jesus was not referring to the 613 Torah laws but He was referring to the New Commands He was giving at the sermon on the mount, etc.; Granted, I am not encouraging anyone to break the Lord's commands (even the commands that do not appear to be a major violation of loving God and others), but our Lord's words have to still hold true in Matthew 5:19. Meaning, there are going to be believers who are in the Kingdom and they taught others that they could break the least of Jesus' commandments. How can they be in the kingdom?

, what could be a possible least command that Jesus is referring to? Well, one possible example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12. For it does not seem like a major violation of loving God and others if we fail to obey this instruction.
​

(Continued in next post):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

#5. Punishment of sins in earthly courts vs. a sin that leads to hellfire (Matthew 5:22). Jesus described to us the difference between death-sins vs. non-death sins in Matthew 5:22.

“But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother or harbors malice against him shall be guilty before the court; and whoever speaks [contemptuously and insultingly] to his brother, ‘Raca (You empty-headed idiot)!’ shall be guilty before the supreme court (Sanhedrin); and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fiery hell.” (Matthew 5:22) (AMP).
​

The words in blue above are “non-death sins” because they are punishment in earthly courts. The words in red above is a “death sin” because it is punishment in hellfire in the afterlife.


#6. Accidental manslaughter and being able to flee to cities of refuge (Deuteronomy 19:1-13); Contrast this with intentional murder which results in capital punishment (See: Deuteronomy 19:21, Numbers 35:31).

#7. Adam’s Inherited Sin (Involving babies that die).
I believe Adam’s Inherited Sin Leads all mankind to physically die. Adam’s sin also opened the door for all men and women to fall into spiritual death and condemnation. But we know according to Scripture and the goodness of God that if a baby dies in this world, they are saved. For King David knew that he would see his unborn child again (2 Samuel 12:23), and Jesus says that children are of the Kingdom of God (Luke 18:16). So how are they saved if Adam brought death? Well, Jesus reversed the curse of spiritual death involving the sin of Adam. The Promised Messiah was the promise of God of salvation to men. So if a baby dies, they will be saved. God is not willing that any should perish. Jesus died for our sins because God loves us. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. But the point here is that if babies are saved, and they are doomed to die physically at some point in their life (either as a baby or an adult) by Adam’s sin, we should realize that the stain of spiritual death from Adam did not take hold onto the lives of babies because of the Messiah. So the sin of Adam passing down spiritual death does not harm a baby. It’s a sin not unto death. Now, the fallen nature was passed down, and thus when that baby grows up, they will sin when they are faced with the knowledge of good and evil. But this is why Jesus came. To set the captives free from sin and death. For Jesus not only came to forgive our sins, but He came to give us a new heart, and new desires to live a new life in Him. A life that is not enslaved to grievous sin that brings spiritual death. Side Note: Now, did spiritual death take hold upon Adam? I believe it did because God said that he would die in the day he would eat of the tree (he was commanded to not eat). Did Adam drop dead physically when he ate of the wrong tree? Surely not. So this means Adam died spiritually. Also, I believe the promise of the Messiah Jesus reversed the curse of Adam. For Jesus took on our sins in the Garden and died in our place for our sins. This was spiritual. So if Jesus never died for our sins, all of mankind would be doomed spiritually (including babies that die). Jesus is the Savior. Jesus deserves all the glory.

 

[Johann]

@Bible Highlighter

Big difference in the STATE of the unregenerate sinning as opposed to believers committing ACTS of sin...unless, of course, you believe in sinless perfection and that the sinful nature is somehow miraculously eradicated, surgically removed?
Yes or no?
Blessings
J.

@Bible Highlighter

Still waiting for a reply.

Can a believer commit sin? You betcha!


1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Maybe you think I am a Calvinist, Lutheran, ...I definitely lean toward Reformed theology friend, Owen, Edwards, Spurgeon and the Puritans...sound, solid biblical doctrines and me personally have no quarrels re other denominations.

Ah! What bliss...do you sin?

Blessings
J.

 

[PinSeeker]

Again this shows our part and God's part. God will never fail to do his part.

Right, but it shows ~ incontrovertibly ~ that our part is a result of God having done His part, and that it inevitably follows, again, because of God having done His part. Ezekiel shows us a clear picture of how salvation happens, and the New Testament writers testify over and over again to it:

"Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of My holy name... I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations... It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord GOD; let that be known to you." (Ezekiel 36)

And David, throughout the Psalms, but here in Psalm 23:

"The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters. He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for His name’s sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever."

This is a promise that God doesn't fail us...

Yes, and a promise that we won't fail because of God's not failing us and sustaining us to the end. All God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus.

The only reason you read it that way is because of Calvinist presuppositions.

Nope. But that's fine; I will likewise say that the only reason you read it the way you do is because of your Arminian presuppositions (even if you don't realize they are so very Arminian).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[JesusFan1]

I sort of disagree with this, JF1. We have free will, but it is in bondage to sin. This is the death we are born into. I know you're aware of this, but some are not. It might be helpful to read what Jesus says to the Jews in John 10:22-29...

At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."

Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."​

Three points:

1. In this statement, Jesus affirms the fact that they don't believe because they are not among His sheep, those whom the Father as given Him. It is not the other way around; it is not that they are not among His sheep because they don't believe. No, again, they don't believe because they are not among His sheep, those whom the Father as given Him. Clearly, our belief in Jesus does not depend on us and our willing, but on God, which Paul states very clearly in Romans 9:16.

2. Also, He says that if we are among His sheep, we hear His voice, and he knows us, and we willingly follow Him.

3. And, as if that's not enough, He also affirms here that we will never be lost again, will never perish... because no one ~ no one ~ is able to take them away from Him, because no one can "snatch them away from the Father" ~ or Him, because He and the Father are one. His purposes cannot be thwarted.

Just this one little statement from Jesus refutes ~ irrefutably ~ pretty much everything... um, some posters... ... are saying in this thread, and in the "OSAS is Satanic!" thread, the "Jesus is not God" thread, the and elsewhere. All of that is refuted here by Jesus Himself. All of it.

Glory be to our great God for His amazing grace, right? Right?

Grace and peace to you.

We have free will, but that will is limited due to the sin nature, so there are some things we cannot and will not will ourselves to be doing, such as seeking after and finding God on our own!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You wish it would be as simple as yes and no. Look at Christ's explaination.
Here it is....do we know the exact connection between the Gods? Could we comprehend that exact connection? Is there a spiritual connection? I would say yes.

The storyline of the Gospels illustrates how God the Father and God the Son relate to each other. Very easy to read. Here is just few tiny morsels of truth.
God did not say He begot Himself.

It’s not a contradiction for God to speak in different perspectives.
Jesus is begotten in the sense that He was born into this world via a physical flesh and blood body.
The Father sent the Son. But the Father was also in the Son, too.

At Christ's baptism God did say He was pleased with Himself.

Again, God is talking from a different perspective. He is referring to the second person of the triune Godhead or Trinity.

God the Son did the will of God the Father....not His own will....two separate wills.

No two separate wills about it. Jesus says, “
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him” (John 8:29).

God the Son did not know when the end would come, but God the Father did....two minds

Because they are two persons that co-equally exist together as one God.

But I believe Jesus suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience but He never lost it.
For if Clark Kent lost his powers as Superman he would no longer be Superman but he would just be Clark Kent or human only.

Jesus Had Suppressed His Divine Attribute of Omniscience (at the foundation of the world long before the “Incarnation”):

Jesus grew in wisdom as a child (Luke 2:52), and He did not know the day or the hour of His own return (Matthew 24:36).

So how can Jesus grow in wisdom as a child, and Jesus at times appeared to be surprised (Matthew 8:10) (Mark 6:6) and yet still be God?

Well, the Bible alludes to the fact that Jesus suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience at the beginning of God’s creation.

How so?

Jesus says to God the Father,

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:5).

I believe this glory is in reference to the "glory of the knowledge of the Lord."

For it is written:

"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." (Habakkuk 2:14).

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 4:6).

So when the world began, Jesus's divine attribute of Omniscience was suppressed.

Jesus was perfected in obeying the Father and suffered unto death while He was limited in knowledge or while His divine attribute of Omniscience was suppressed. Jesus was able to learn how to obey while under suffering in a human body with limited knowledge. Jesus could be surprised. Jesus (the Eternal Logos or Word) lived as a man so as to fulfill the type of Adam. For Adam was also limited in knowledge in the Garden before the fall.

It's why Jesus is a like type figure of Adam.

For Jesus is called the "Last Adam" in Scripture (See 1 Corinthians 15:22).

Modern bibles, and or Modern Scholarship teach that Jesus lost his divine powers or attributes during His earthly ministry.

However, Jesus only suppressed His Omniscience but He did not lose His divine powers as God. If such were the case, He would have ceased to have been God.

Besides, the Bible teaches that Jesus had power during His earthly ministry.

1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
7. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Matthew 12:25) (Mark 2:8) (Luke 5:22) (Luke 6:8) (Luke 9:47) (Luke 24:38).
8. Jesus knew about the lives of others (John 2:24) (John 4:17-18) (John 4:29) (John 6:64).
​

(Continued in next post):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God the Son sits on the right hand of God the Father. Two "bodies"

Not a contradiction if the Father dwells in the Son and the Son dwells in the Father (See: John 14:10). This would be there connection together as one God (including the Holy Spirit - of course).

A God that is a Father and a God that is a Son.

God has many facets to Him. He is everything we could seek for.
But again… not a contradiction if you understand that the different persons of the triune Godhead can dwell with in one another. This is the unbreakable connection they have in being one God. Remember how I told you before about the paper cut outs of people holding each other’s hands in a chain? Now, imagine these are fillable bottles. Imagine if there was a red, blue, and green liquid that would pour into these bottles that look like the paper chain of people holding hands. Each of these colors would represent the the three persons of the Godhead or Trinity. Imagine if these liquids did not change color but they remained distinct sort of like oil and water. Now you have your model to understand what God could be like in being three persons and yet one God with the Son saying that the Father dwells in Him, and vise versa. Both the spiritual bodies would still be distinct (One as the Father, and the other as the Son).

God the Son called God the Father, His God. and when asked by the mother of James and John if they could sit on either side of Christ, He said it was not His to give. Matt. 27:46)? After Jesus resurrection from the dead, he appears to Mary Magdalene, and she immediately clings to Him. In response Jesus says to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Both are God. We also have to understand that a word does not always mean what we think, too. Jesus called us gods but that does not mean we are divine like God and we can create the universe out of nothing, etcetera.

Christ called His Father, His God and said that the Father is greater than I ’”

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Matthew 20:20-23 The mother of Zebedee’s children (James and John) came to Jesus with her sons. She got down on her knees before Jesus to ask something of Him. 21 He said to her, “What do you want?” She said, “Say that my two sons may sit, one at Your right side and one at Your left side, when You are King.” 22 Jesus said to her, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to take the suffering that I am about to take? (*Are you able to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?)” They said, “Yes, we are able.” 23 He said to them, “You will suffer as I will suffer. But the places at My right side and at My left side are not Mine to give. Whoever My Father says will have those places.”

A hierarchy within the triune Godhead or Trinity does not negate the fact that they are connected together as one GOD. Jesus said I am and the Father are one (John 10:30).

Now we can give each other scriptures to support our beliefs until the cows come home and we are not going to convince each other of anything...so this is enough.

Jesus says, “Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.” (John 14:11).

Also, Isaiah 43:11 says, “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.”

Yet, we know Jesus sat down at the right hand of God the Father.

Yet, we know Jesus is the Savior.

Acts of the Apostles 4:12
“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

John 3:17
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

Yet,

1 John 4:14 says:
“And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.”

Isaiah 45:21-22
21 “Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Bible Highlighter

Still waiting for a reply.

Can a believer commit sin? You betcha!


1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context (of which I am glad you posted). 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

 

[Grailhunter]

Not a contradiction if the Father dwells in the Son and the Son dwells in the Father (See: John 14:10). This would be there connection together as one God (including the Holy Spirit - of course).



God has many facets to Him. He is everything we could seek for.
But again… not a contradiction if you understand that the different persons of the triune Godhead can dwell with in one another. This is the unbreakable connection they have in being one God. Remember how I told you before about the paper cut outs of people holding each other’s hands in a chain? Now, imagine these are fillable bottles. Imagine if there was a red, blue, and green liquid that would pour into these bottles that look like the paper chain of people holding hands. Each of these colors would represent the the three persons of the Godhead or Trinity. Imagine if these liquids did not change color but they remained distinct sort of like oil and water. Now you have your model to understand what God could be like in being three persons and yet one God with the Son saying that the Father dwells in Him, and vise versa. Both the spiritual bodies would still be distinct (One as the Father, and the other as the Son).



In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Both are God. We also have to understand that a word does not always mean what we think, too. Jesus called us gods but that does not mean we are divine like God and we can create the universe out of nothing, etcetera.



A hierarchy within the triune Godhead or Trinity does not negate the fact that they are connected together as one GOD. Jesus said I am and the Father are one (John 10:30).




Jesus says, “Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.” (John 14:11).

Also, Isaiah 43:11 says, “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.”

Yet, we know Jesus sat down at the right hand of God the Father.

Yet, we know Jesus is the Savior.

Acts of the Apostles 4:12
“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

John 3:17
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

Yet,

1 John 4:14 says:
“And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.”

Isaiah 45:21-22
21 “Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Like I said we are not going to agree.

 

[PinSeeker]

We have free will, but that will is limited due to the sin nature, so there are some things we cannot and will not will ourselves to be doing, such as seeking after and finding God on our own!

Okay, well we disagree on the will. The crux of the matter at any point in time is the state of the heart, and how we are thus fully inclined to use that free will. And that's really what you're saying here, I think. Think about it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Johann]

#5. Punishment of sins in earthly courts vs. a sin that leads to hellfire (Matthew 5:22). Jesus described to us the difference between death-sins vs. non-death sins in Matthew 5:22.

“But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother or harbors malice against him shall be guilty before the court; and whoever speaks [contemptuously and insultingly] to his brother, ‘Raca (You empty-headed idiot)!’ shall be guilty before the supreme court (Sanhedrin); and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fiery hell.” (Matthew 5:22) (AMP).
​

The words in blue above are “non-death sins” because they are punishment in earthly courts. The words in red above is a “death sin” because it is punishment in hellfire in the afterlife.


#6. Accidental manslaughter and being able to flee to cities of refuge (Deuteronomy 19:1-13); Contrast this with intentional murder which results in capital punishment (See: Deuteronomy 19:21, Numbers 35:31).

#7. Adam’s Inherited Sin (Involving babies that die).
I believe Adam’s Inherited Sin Leads all mankind to physically die. Adam’s sin also opened the door for all men and women to fall into spiritual death and condemnation. But we know according to Scripture and the goodness of God that if a baby dies in this world, they are saved. For King David knew that he would see his unborn child again (2 Samuel 12:23), and Jesus says that children are of the Kingdom of God (Luke 18:16). So how are they saved if Adam brought death? Well, Jesus reversed the curse of spiritual death involving the sin of Adam. The Promised Messiah was the promise of God of salvation to men. So if a baby dies, they will be saved. God is not willing that any should perish. Jesus died for our sins because God loves us. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. But the point here is that if babies are saved, and they are doomed to die physically at some point in their life (either as a baby or an adult) by Adam’s sin, we should realize that the stain of spiritual death from Adam did not take hold onto the lives of babies because of the Messiah. So the sin of Adam passing down spiritual death does not harm a baby. It’s a sin not unto death. Now, the fallen nature was passed down, and thus when that baby grows up, they will sin when they are faced with the knowledge of good and evil. But this is why Jesus came. To set the captives free from sin and death. For Jesus not only came to forgive our sins, but He came to give us a new heart, and new desires to live a new life in Him. A life that is not enslaved to grievous sin that brings spiritual death. Side Note: Now, did spiritual death take hold upon Adam? I believe it did because God said that he would die in the day he would eat of the tree (he was commanded to not eat). Did Adam drop dead physically when he ate of the wrong tree? Surely not. So this means Adam died spiritually. Also, I believe the promise of the Messiah Jesus reversed the curse of Adam. For Jesus took on our sins in the Garden and died in our place for our sins. This was spiritual. So if Jesus never died for our sins, all of mankind would be doomed spiritually (including babies that die). Jesus is the Savior. Jesus deserves all the glory.

How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

This smacks of sinless perfection, no word re sanctification?
What is sanctification?
Looks like you have or use resources for every question.
Looks like you are talking about justification TO glorification WITHOUT sanctification?
J.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This smacks of sinless perfection, no word re sanctification?
What is sanctification?
Looks like you have or use resources for every question.
Looks like you are talking about justification TO glorification WITHOUT sanctification?
J.

I believe there are two major aspects of salvation a believer needs to be concerned with in this life.

#1. God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#2. Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life & A Belief of the Truth.
(The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
This is based on 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 (Which is call of the gospel; Note: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is not the gospel. It is simply the call of the gospel; For the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

13 “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation
through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,..”​

Anyways, this secondary aspect of salvation is in two parts. It is a two part intertwined secondary aspect of salvation (Which joins the cord of Initial Salvation or Foundational Salvation in being saved by God’s grace; See note below at the end of this post). Anyways, this secondary aspect of salvation is in two parts. One does not exist without the other (Note: The following is mentioned in order according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and it is not stating that one cannot proceed the other or vise versa).

(a). Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

(b) A Belief of the Truth is also another secondary synergistic intertwined aspect of salvation for the believer (in addition to Sanctification of the Holy Spirit). We need to study to show ourselves approved unto God according to 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJB). We need to hold to certain correct doctrines or teachings in God’s Word. One example: It is implied that denying bodily resurrection means one’s faith is overthrown (See: 2 Timothy 2:17-18). So we need to study God’s Word (the Holy Bible) and hold to it’s truths. Now, does that mean one is not saved if they don’t know of the bodily resurrection? I don’t believe so. I believe that is what God’s grace is for. But once a key core doctrine of God’s Word is revealed to a believer, they cannot reject it. So a belief of the truth is similar to Sanctification. A Christian must grow in the knowledge of God’s Word and accept it’s beautiful fundamental truths. Does holding to all truths in the Bible save? Well, I don’t think a belief in the Nephilim saves (although it is a truth taught in His Word). But I believe there are other foundational truths we must eventually learn and accept as Christians. The Spirit will guide a believer into all truth within God’s Word.​

Side Note:

(A) Initial Salvation is solely in being saved by God’s grace through faith without works.

(B) Continued Salvation (or the Secondary Aspect of Salvation) is sort of like a three corded rope (or a cord of three strands). This rope involves:

Cord #1. Initial Salvation continuing in our life as one strand of the rope in our ongoing trust in God’s grace as the foundation of our salvation. Without this grace, we would be without any hope and without salvation. For Jesus is our cornerstone or foundation upon which we are ultimately saved.

Cord #2. Sanctification of the Spirit (to live a holy life by God’s power according to His Word) (Living holy by the Spirit involves putting away sin, and doing good works, and in keeping oneself pure and not by justifying sin).

Cord #3. A Belief of the Truth (Which is a continual study and belief of God’s Holy Word known as the Holy Bible).​

For Ecclesiastes 4:12 (GNT) says,
“A rope made of three cords is hard to break.”

Anyways, I hope this helps, and may God bless you greatly today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This smacks of sinless perfection, no word re sanctification?
What is sanctification?
Looks like you have or use resources for every question.
Looks like you are talking about justification TO glorification WITHOUT sanctification?
J.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This smacks of sinless perfection

As I said to you before you, I don't believe Sinless Perfectionism is a salvation issue because it is dealing ALSO with putting away sins that are not unto death.

#1. Sins unto death (can cause one to lose their soul unless they repent).
#2. Sins NOT unto death (are minor faults or transgressions that the Bible appears to imply that do not lead to a loss of one's salvation regardless of their actions in most cases).​

However, believers do at some point need to overcome sins that lead unto spiritual death to make it into God's Kingdom, though. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (See: Hebrews 12:14).

Looks like you have or use resources for every question.

All written work is my own from writing on these topics before involving the Bible. Graphics (Arrangement of the fonts, etc.) were also created by me (Except for the photos themselves - of which I made a collage out of one of them).

Looks like you are talking about justification TO glorification WITHOUT sanctification?
J.

No. I technically believe in 4 aspects of salvation (Provisional Atonement, God's grace, Sanctification, and Glorification). But I believe that Christians should be focused primarily on the two aspects of salvation (God's grace and Sanctification).

 

[Johann]

Provisional Atonement,

Explain "provisional atonement"

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Explain "provisional atonement"

Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by being saved by God's grace and Sanctification).

This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.) (Note: The best way to describe the Provisional Atonement is like a man who paid the price to pay off your debts by his handing you a check to be debt free; But it is up to you to receive the check, deposit it into your checking account, and pay off those you are in debt to; It's a gift, but like all good gifts in life, you have to receive the gift and use it properly to be of any benefit). Jesus provided an atonement, but it is up to us to receive it to personally apply to our lives by having a proper faith. Men will remain as sinners if they reject the Provisional Atonement of Jesus Christ. Jesus provided a provisional atonement (salvation) in dealing with sin as a way of escape for mankind to be saved through accepting Him (Who is the gift).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This smacks of sinless perfection,

Do you believe GOD wants us to justify sin and evil?

Think about the endless atrocities a believer could commit in His name thinking that way.
A believer could falsely think they could mow down a crowd with a submachine gun all while they believe they are saved by having a belief alone in Jesus.

Note: I have talked with believers who falsely believe this way (Both online and in person).

Besides, what do you make of the following verses?

“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

1 Peter 4:1-2
“Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.”

Galatians 5:24
“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”

What do you make of how the Bible talks about those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality?

Jude 1:4 NIV
“For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I definitely lean toward Reformed theology friend, Owen, Edwards, Spurgeon and the Puritans...sound, solid biblical doctrines and me personally have no quarrels re other denominations.

I reject Calvinism for a number of good reasons.

#1. Its unbiblical big time.
#2. It's immoral big time.
#3. It's not the historic teaching (St. Augustine was the first to bring in a more primitive concept of it).
#4. 5 point Calvinism was created by John Calvin who had others murdered for theological differences.
#5. Westminster Confession of Faith and the 5 point teaching of Calvinism become unspoken extra biblical holy writings among many of its adherents. So it's not the Bible Alone as one's sole authority.