John Darby

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 There are amazing insights in Hebrews and Revelation, some of the language of which is rooted in the Old Testament also.

Very true, and considering how much light the New T sheds on the Old T, this is unsurprising. It's a beautiful thing to be able to look back and see God's providential hand guiding all things towards that moment on the cross...and then more...seeing what the outworking of that plan was to the whole world.

 

[Naomi25]

‘But the NJ is a symbol of man and God dwelling together’ Just a perspective but not any man but that which growth up and increases in stature ‘of the fullness of Christ’. The Head and the body: so much so the Head anointed ‘the anointing received remains’ Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Ephesians 1:22-23 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, [23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

‘But the NJ is a symbol of man and God dwelling together’ Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Realize we have a disconnect. Wish I could understand how you see things.

I have the same wish...your thoughts always seem...deep...like if I could only grab hold it would be profound! But alas...I struggle.

I'll have a stab...please forgive me if I get it wrong. Are you pointing to these passages as saying that 'In Christ', God already dwells with man? Because, yes, absolutely. With the promised Spirit within us we have become, in a way, the temple of God. But this, like all kingdom things, is an 'already/not yet' issue. Jesus has certainly won for us eternal life. He has given us the 'guarantee of our inheritance', the Spirit, so that we have the power to turn from sin, making the kingdom a present reality. However, in many, many ways the kingdom is 'not yet'. Death still has free reign. Jesus is not yet walking among his people. Nature still heaves and groans. The bible clearly promises a time when these things will be no more; death gone, Jesus will be with us physically, the cosmos restored. Then we can say that, as in the garden of Eden, God 'dwells' with man.

 

[Naomi25]

for instance ‘the river of the water of Life’ ...is it the water of ‘let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of Life freely? Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

It probably is. But you will note that the water of life is connected with those who 'are thirsty', those who 'come'. People who drink of this water are those who have sought out or who recognize their need for Christ and his 'living water'. People who reject the need for Christ do not see their own thirst, and they certainly do not 'come'.

 

[Naomi25]

And I agree with all those Scriptures and the fact heaven will come down to the new earth!

But what yo ureject is also the clear unambiguous promises god made to Israel that they will have a kingdom here on earth with Messiah as its head who sits on the throne of David, with the apostles ruling over the twelve tribes. Just like all the verses I posted showed you!

How do I 'reject it' if I acknowledge that in eternity Christ will be king on this very earth over all peoples and the promises made to Abraham and his heirs (Gal 3:29) will be fulfilled completely and perfectly? In point of fact, isn't it just the time period that I'm putting the fulfilled promises IN that you are objecting to?

3. there are numerous verses that says God will punish Israel for its sin (singular), scatter them globally for that sin (singular) and in the last days bring them back to the land God promised them and drive the rebel and the rest of the nation gets saved! This is what I teach as it is written, but you say that is wrong!

Ah...no. No I don't recall saying 'that is wrong'. Have I not categorically agreed with the fact that 'in the last days' God will save national Israel? I don't think I've mentioned whether they need to be 'in the land' for that to happen, which means you can't claim one way or the other if I've claimed it wrong or not. As it happens, I believe the fact that Israel re-formed again after nearly 2000 nothing short of miraculous...clearly the hand of God...probably in order for the last days 'saving'. So...NOW you know what I think in that regard.

God promised Israel to be restored to the land- and they are!
God promised they would be a by word among the nations, and they are!
God promised when they returned, Jerusalem would be a stumbling block to the nations and it is!
God said they would live in safety, and despite all the attack's, they do!
God recorded another temple built- and the plans are drawn and much equipment pre prepared!

So why do we have to reject as non literal the promise that God will resote the kingdom to Israel with Messiah reigning as King?

Once more....I don't have a problem with ANY of those things...and I believe they are probably in order for Romans 11 to come to pass. However, Romans 11 does give us SPECIFIC things to look for IN the redemption of the Jewish nation. And that is not a separate saved nation from the 'church'. It is for them to be 'grafted onto the olive tree' where the church currently is. Israel must be saved through Christ, entering into the one body of Christ.
Which means having a separate theocratic kingdom where Jews and Gentiles are separate does NOT fit the kingdom profile of the NT.
Where the kingdom profile DOES fit is eternity....where Christ reigns ON EARTH....there's your physical 'literal' kingdom....and all 'heirs of the promise' (Gal 3:29) receive the promises given to Abraham.

 

[Naomi25]

Many time OT people said things they did not understand the ramifications from. Prophesies, dreams, simple statements that actually were for th efuture.

But I used Romans 11 especially the end where it says the gifts andc alling of God are without repentance.

Chapter 11 is almost exclusively about Israel and the role of Gentiles with or to Israel.

Paul reminded that ISrael as a nation will be restored tot he place of blessing and receive all god promised the nation, for teh gifts and callings of God are without repentance. A future generation of Israel (the 1/3 left of Zech) will receive her Messiah and King and He will return and establish his kingdom! It is not much spoken of in th enew for it is not very relevant to teh mission of the church- go and make disciples in all nations.

Just like we do not talk much nor are they mentioned much things like creation, the flood, babel, the confounding of languages, Sodom and Gomorrah. They are briefly spoken of, but have little germaine to the role the church has in this age!

Man....you are totally missing the point of Romans 11. Yes, the callings and gifts are irrevocable. But Paul is CLEAR on how they come about. Let's look:

But if some of the branches (national Israel) were broken off, and you, although a wild olive (believing Gentiles) shoot, were grafted in among the others (remnant believing Jews) and now share in the nourishing root (Jesus) of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief (in Jesus), but you stand fast through faith (In Jesus). So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief (of Jesus), will be grafted in (to the olive tree and the root who is Jesus), for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. -Romans 11:17–24

Basically? When Paul says the promises and calling is irrevocable, he's not talking about an earthly (fallen) kingdom, he's talking about the promises made through and inheritance in Christ Jesus. Salvation for all, even the Jewish people and nation MUST come through Jesus...only Jesus. Any and all future salvation and promise comes through Christ. And when we look at the 'one body and if you are in Christ, then you are heirs to the promise' verses, we begin to understand that both promises to the fathers and the inheritance we are 'guaranteed' is of a bigger and more lasting scope then just a mere parcel of land and of 1000 years.

 

[Naomi25]

It is never a waste when we study to show ourselves approved!

I will be honest, my aim was to try to convince you! I never debate and discuss for the sake of it, but to accomplish something. I look forward to engaging with you again! You truly are a treasure!

Well, thank you...you too are a hard find....its very difficult to find Dispensationalists who are open to just...honest dialogue. Even if that dialogue gets a bit pointy at times. I think we've managed to find our pace after a somewhat rocky start! I'll look forward to more conversation too.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I'll have a stab...please forgive me if I get it wrong. Are you pointing to these passages as saying that 'In Christ', God already dwells with man? Because, yes, absolutely. With the promised Spirit within us we have become, in a way, the temple of God. But this, like all kingdom things, is an 'already/not yet' issue. Jesus has certainly won for us eternal life. He has given us the 'guarantee of our inheritance', the Spirit, so that we have the power to turn from sin, making the kingdom a present reality

Agree.

However, in many, many ways the kingdom is 'not yet'. Death still has free reign.

Also agree. Not denying the ‘need of patience’ in Romans 8:24-25 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? [25] But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Or Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Jesus is not yet walking among his people. Nature still heaves and groans.

maybe disagree here, say maybe because it could also be I’m not fully understanding what you mean. If He isn’t walking among His people, then how do they walk by light and not darkness? If He isn’t walking among His people then how do they continue and not stumble? Are you saying 2 Corinthians 6:16 Is not yet? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them ; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

and what does ‘I will dwell in them, and walk in them’ mean to you? If not walk in the Spirit , the Spirit of Christ where He said if any man is without the Spirit of Christ then he is none of His. Only recently the ‘overthrow the Faith of some’ has stood out in 2 Timothy 2:18-19 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. [19] Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

how ‘overthrow the faith of some’ when Faith is a gift of the Spirit of God. Point is (imo) there is a difference between faith and Faith. How can their faith be overthrown when He said what is of God nothing can overthrow it?

Philippians 2:19 Lexicon: But I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, so that I also may be encouraged when I learn of your condition.

it is the ‘lead away from’ of the ‘abstain’ in Philippians 2:19, who is doing the ‘leading’ or the walking in them who walk where they have never walked before?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It probably is. But you will note that the water of life is connected with those who 'are thirsty', those who 'come'. People who drink of this water are those who have sought out or who recognize their need for Christ and his 'living water'. People who reject the need for Christ do not see their own thirst, and they certainly do not 'come'.

not denying the: those who thirst; come and drink. Only asking what are they to drink if not of the Living water which proceeds out of throne of God and of the Lamb. Revelation 22:1-2 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. [2] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

forgive me but then I’m unsure sure how then, when Christ said He come out from the Father, and if any man drinks of the water He gives they will never thirst again...how is He not saying He is the River of Life and if any drink of the water He gives they will never go thirsty? Is this ‘drinking’ and ‘come’ future when He stood and cried ‘come drink’ of the Living water? how does it get turned into a literal physical river in some future restoration? Or along with the River of Life, also the ‘yielding of fruits’ which are for the healing of the nations. One night my husband and I went to a bible study and they were talking about the garden and all discussing what we do know is ...there will be literal trees with literal fruit for healing. The conversation went on with everyone trying to imagine what fruits will there be? Not once, Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

instead... apples, oranges...

 

[Davy]

realize you are speaking to another member and not me. I’m sorry for the intrusion but you seem stuck on a repeat of ‘My kingdom is not of this world’ as proof, His kingdom is not near but instead far off. which baffles me. How can one be ‘in the world’ but not ‘of the world’? By what you say it is impossible to ‘in’ but ‘not of’....but instead ‘not of’ must be ‘not in’.

Excuse me, but you've been trying to argue that topic too. You began chiming in around post #709. You must have forgotten.

With those who won't listen, once is forced to keep repeating oneself. Thus my reason for having to keep bringing that John 18:36 Scripture up. Those who hate that just might be showing they don't like that Scripture! Not my problem, they have the problem of not heeding it as written...

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.
KJV

The simple question of when will His servants fight helps define 'when' Jesus' kingdom will come. And God's Word shows that fight is to be at the end of this world with His 2nd coming, His return.

So, do you see our Lord Jesus already sitting on David's throne here on earth? If you do, then you would be denying the following Scripture...

Heb 10:12-13
12 But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
KJV

That will happen on the day of His return, which will begin His "thousand years" reign with His elect per Revelation 20. That is the day when Jesus will sit upon David's earthly throne He is to inherit.

Those you are listening to obviously don't understand this, or if they do, then you have misunderstood them.

 

[Davy]

The very great reason I am not interested in engaging in discussion with you is that you tend to make sweeping statements of both assumption and of arrogance.

You obviously do not have an answer for the Scriptures I have shown you, so now you are trying to bear a false witness against me? You hypocrite, may Lord Jesus rebuke you.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The simple question of when will His servants fight helps define 'when' Jesus' kingdom will come.

“The simple question of when will His servants fight helps define 'when' Jesus' kingdom will come.” 2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

Word shows that fight is to be at the end of this world with His 2nd coming, His return.

2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

Ephesians 6:12-17 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. [13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; [15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; [16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. [17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

 

[VictoryinJesus]

How do I 'reject it' if I acknowledge that in eternity Christ will be king on this very earth over all peoples and the promises made to Abraham and his heirs (Gal 3:29) will be fulfilled completely and perfectly?

One promise was to bless thy bread and thy water Exodus 23:25 And ye shall serve the Lord your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.

One promise was to bless thy bread and thy water ‘I am the bread’ ‘I am the living water’ God's Favor: "Jesus was rejected indeed by men, but chose by God. "Come to Him—the living stone—who was rejected by people but accepted by God as chosen and precious." 1 Peter 2:4.

‘he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.’ Is that bread of God, that water of God...blessed of Him? Then what more promise is needed to fulfill all the promises of God in Christ. Same with ‘I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.’ That pointing of the finger speaking vanity in the midst of thee ...when it is removed form the midst and He is in the midst, then He has removed sickness from the midst of thee. When you deal out your bread to the poor ....then the light breaks forth. Point is, has He fulfilled the promises made to them —one being to bless the bread and the water— or Is there still a wait, for the bread of God and water of God to be blessed of Him? 2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

[Davy]

“The simple question of when will His servants fight helps define 'when' Jesus' kingdom will come.” 2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

OK 'one-verse', what about Revelation 19:11-21? and Zechariah 14? and 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10? and Jude 1:14-15? and Joel 3:11-17? and I could keep going... so it's best not to try and play smart-e lech with one who has actually studied their Bible.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

OK 'one-verse', what about Revelation 19:11-21? and Zechariah 14? and 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10? and Jude 1:14-15? and Joel 3:11-17? and I could keep going... so it's best not to try and play smart-e lech with one who has actually studied their Bible.

don’t deny those passages maybe we just have a different perspective of them. Mostly it is encouraging that God’s ways are not like our ways.

 

[Davy]

don’t deny those passages maybe we just have a different perspective of them. Mostly it is encouraging that God’s ways are not like our ways.

Yes, we obviously have different perspectives. You believe Christ's kingdom is 'now', so you tend to apply only the Scriptures you can use in an attempt to prove that. But I regard all the Scriptures as a whole, and that is where my understanding comes from. By my study of the Scriptures as a whole, God's Word reveals Christ's spiritual kingdom is what manifested by His death and resurrection, but not His coming literal physical kingdom structure that is to take place when He returns. Even Apostle Paul taught about this coming literal kingdom when Jesus returns...

2 Tim 4:1
4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and his kingdom;
KJV

Paul would never had said the above if he believed Christ's future literal kingdom had come already.

Paul wouldn't have said the following either if he believed Christ's literal kingdom had come already...

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."
27 And this word, "Yet once more", signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
KJV

The above event is about the last day of this world on the "day of the Lord" when the elements of man's works are burned off this earth, per 2 Peter 3:10-11. That is when those in Christ receive the kingdom, literally, here on earth, with those things of man being destroyed off the earth, while those things that cannot be shaken, may remain. God once before literally shook this earth to remove the works of old, and He is going to do it once again for the end of this world, which is what Paul is talking about in the above.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

OK 'one-verse', what about Revelation 19:11-

first it isn’t just one verse but there are many pertaining to fight (stand) and putting on of the whole armour of God. Nothing there to put on, carry, or arm is physical from the breastplate, to the weapons, down to the having your feet shod with the gospel of peace. even 1 Peter 4:1 speaks in battle terms in ‘arm yourselves likewise with the same mind’ “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;”

Curious how many sacrifices, how many ‘the supper of the great God’ do you say there are? Revelation 19:17-18 is very similar to the one you quoted from Revelations “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; [18] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”

 

[Ronald Nolette]

How do I 'reject it' if I acknowledge that in eternity Christ will be king on this very earth over all peoples and the promises made to Abraham and his heirs (Gal 3:29) will be fulfilled completely and perfectly? In point of fact, isn't it just the time period that I'm putting the fulfilled promises IN that you are objecting to?

If you acknowledge that Jesus will reign as King in eternity, then you also acknowledge that death reigns in eternity!

1 Corinthians 15:23-29
King James Version

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Well, thank you...you too are a hard find....its very difficult to find Dispensationalists who are open to just...honest dialogue. Even if that dialogue gets a bit pointy at times. I think we've managed to find our pace after a somewhat rocky start! I'll look forward to more conversation too.

We neede to make sure to look each other up when we are in the millenial kingdom !!!!!! (Sorry, but I had to get one more jab in!! LOL)

I look forward to engaging again.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Basically? When Paul says the promises and calling is irrevocable, he's not talking about an earthly (fallen) kingdom, he's talking about the promises made through and inheritance in Christ Jesus. Salvation for all, even the Jewish people and nation MUST come through Jesus...only Jesus. Any and all future salvation and promise comes through Christ. And when we look at the 'one body and if you are in Christ, then you are heirs to the promise' verses, we begin to understand that both promises to the fathers and the inheritance we are 'guaranteed' is of a bigger and more lasting scope then just a mere parcel of land and of 1000 years.

What is missing is you jumped from verse 24 to verse 29 and forgot the new though Paul started in verse 25:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Well the millenial kingdom is the last point in time! ( or just about, there are a few things afterwards) These are the gifts and calling. Salvation is not about the millennial, but eternity, but only the saved who survive Armegeddon are the humans who enter the kingdom, the rest of us are saved and glorified saints!

I would have to restudy the role of OT saints during the Millenial, but the church is Jesus bride and thence His queen! The survivors of the Trib go into the kingdom and repopulate the earth where Jesus rules with a rod of iron as it is written.

This is just something God said He would od! Then comes eternity. None of us know if the distinctions found in the millenial (the roles each class of saints play) hold in eternity! All the OT passages of things like the lion lying with teh lamb are millenial kingdom descriptions- not eternal ones!

 

[Naomi25]

maybe disagree here, say maybe because it could also be I’m not fully understanding what you mean.

Well, in John Christ tells his Disciples that he must leave them in order for the Spirit to come (16:7), who will 'be with us forever' (14:16). We know that in Matt 28:20 that Jesus promised to be with us "to the end of the age"...so how does his 'leaving' and the Spirits 'coming' fit with that? Like this:

Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. -John 14:22–23

And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; -John 16:8–10

Basically, Jesus is telling the disciples that when he physically departs the Spirit will take his place by dwelling within us. Jesus, one with the Father, also one with the Spirit, is therefore present within us as we walk with the Spirit.
However, if we understand this to be the case, we can then look at the promises Christ gives us for his physical return to be fulfilled literally in the future.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:3

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” -Revelation 21:1–4

There are other passages, but we can clearly see that the bible promises 1) a physical return of Jesus Christ, and 2) a time when God (which of course includes 'the lamb') dwelling among his people as he once did in the garden of Eden when sin and death are no more. We can clearly say that that is not now.

If He isn’t walking among His people, then how do they walk by light and not darkness? If He isn’t walking among His people then how do they continue and not stumble? Are you saying 2 Corinthians 6:16 Is not yet? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them ; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

and what does ‘I will dwell in them, and walk in them’ mean to you? If not walk in the Spirit , the Spirit of Christ where He said if any man is without the Spirit of Christ then he is none of His. Only recently the ‘overthrow the Faith of some’ has stood out in 2 Timothy 2:18-19 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. [19] Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

how ‘overthrow the faith of some’ when Faith is a gift of the Spirit of God. Point is (imo) there is a difference between faith and Faith. How can their faith be overthrown when He said what is of God nothing can overthrow it?

Philippians 2:19 Lexicon: But I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, so that I also may be encouraged when I learn of your condition.

it is the ‘lead away from’ of the ‘abstain’ in Philippians 2:19, who is doing the ‘leading’ or the walking in them who walk where they have never walked before?

I would say that all these questions are answered by "the Spirit". We have God IN us, right now. Christ promised us his presence...the presence of God, and that's exactly what we have in the Spirit. He said that it was, in fact, 'better' for him to leave, physically and send the Spirit...presumably because in his physical form, Jesus would be present in one location on earth, while the Spirit is present within every believer, working within their lives.
And yes, this gives them light, it gives them strength to turn away from sin, it convicts...or I should say 'he' convicts and brings to remembrance Jesus and what he said. We grow in our Christian walk every day under the hand of the Spirit.
But we can still turn to Revelation and say; there is still death, sin, sorrow. And God himself does not walk with me 'in the cool of the day', like he did with Adam and Eve. That is a future reality, when my body no longer aches and tears no longer fall. When drought and famine no longer cause heartache and death.
It's a very real future and one Paul encourages us to encourage each other with in Thessalonians!

 

[farouk]

Well, in John Christ tells his Disciples that he must leave them in order for the Spirit to come (16:7), who will 'be with us forever' (14:16). We know that in Matt 28:20 that Jesus promised to be with us "to the end of the age"...so how does his 'leaving' and the Spirits 'coming' fit with that? Like this:

Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. -John 14:22–23

And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; -John 16:8–10

Basically, Jesus is telling the disciples that when he physically departs the Spirit will take his place by dwelling within us. Jesus, one with the Father, also one with the Spirit, is therefore present within us as we walk with the Spirit.
However, if we understand this to be the case, we can then look at the promises Christ gives us for his physical return to be fulfilled literally in the future.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:3

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” -Revelation 21:1–4

There are other passages, but we can clearly see that the bible promises 1) a physical return of Jesus Christ, and 2) a time when God (which of course includes 'the lamb') dwelling among his people as he once did in the garden of Eden when sin and death are no more. We can clearly say that that is not now.



I would say that all these questions are answered by "the Spirit". We have God IN us, right now. Christ promised us his presence...the presence of God, and that's exactly what we have in the Spirit. He said that it was, in fact, 'better' for him to leave, physically and send the Spirit...presumably because in his physical form, Jesus would be present in one location on earth, while the Spirit is present within every believer, working within their lives.
And yes, this gives them light, it gives them strength to turn away from sin, it convicts...or I should say 'he' convicts and brings to remembrance Jesus and what he said. We grow in our Christian walk every day under the hand of the Spirit.
But we can still turn to Revelation and say; there is still death, sin, sorrow. And God himself does not walk with me 'in the cool of the day', like he did with Adam and Eve. That is a future reality, when my body no longer aches and tears no longer fall. When drought and famine no longer cause heartache and death.
It's a very real future and one Paul encourages us to encourage each other with in Thessalonians!

@Naomi25 1 Thess. 4: "Wherefore comfort one another with these words".