"Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Faith" - Has 500 Years Taught Us Nothing?

[brakelite]

Martin Luther, Huldrych Zwingli, John Calvin, Joseph Smith, Fred Phelps, mjrhealth and David Koresh all did they same thing. They all 'asked Him' and they all got different answers.

The first 3 received the same answer...My Word is yours to believe. Don't believe the church's opinion. That piece of counsel still stands. "I will give you My Spirit and He will guide you into all truth". Sadly, not many people believe that such a thing is possible...the Catholic Church even teaches only certain ones can be so blessed...thus they call God a liar.
The fourth and the last...well, if they did ask Him, they didn't wait for an answer.
As for the remaining 2, I don't know either well enough to judge.

 

[Marymog]

The first 3 received the same answer...My Word is yours to believe. Don't believe the church's opinion. That piece of counsel still stands. "I will give you My Spirit and He will guide you into all truth". Sadly, not many people believe that such a thing is possible...the Catholic Church even teaches only certain ones can be so blessed...thus they call God a liar.
The fourth and the last...well, if they did ask Him, they didn't wait for an answer.
As for the remaining 2, I don't know either well enough to judge.

History lesson: The first three (Luther, Zwingli, Calvin) didn't receive the same answer. They all had various beliefs, doctrines, dogmas etc. and all claimed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit. Have you not read YOUR Christian history? Or do you just read anti-Catholic literature?

You said you "don't know either well enough to judge". I hope you didn't mean the word "judge". Did you mean to give an "opinion" on?

Who was the Spirit given to that is able to guide us to the truth??? YOU? Luther? Joseph Smith? Do you believe you have been blessed and can guide us to the truth?? If you answer is YES then does that mean, based on your own theory, you are calling God a liar. If your answer is NO then why should anyone listen to you?

Curious Mary

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe this is the way to say it:
God hates sin. The CC sins in every Mass (idolatry) it performs. I think God hates your church.
But, I am commanded to love my enemies, so I must say I do not hate Catholic Christians, even though I hate your church.

I don't understand hatred for the CC.
What about it do you hate?

For instance, you say the Mass is idolatry.
How??

 

[brakelite]

History lesson: The first three (Luther, Zwingli, Calvin) didn't receive the same answer. They all had various beliefs, doctrines, dogmas etc. and all claimed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit.

History lesson. The first three may have differed in some points of doctrine, but they agreed on one thing. That the scriptures are the foundation for faith and practice... Not church tradition that contradicted scripture. They differed in some things because their church, for the previous 1000 years had taught a steadily growing mountain of error... One being that only the church can decide what is truth.

You said you "don't know either well enough to judge". I hope you didn't mean the word "judge". Did you mean to give an "opinion" on?

No one said that we aren't to judge. Are you not aware that we shall judge angels? What we need to do however is ensure our judgement is not obscured by poor vision.

Do you believe you have been blessed and can guide us to the truth?? If you answer is YES then does that mean, based on your own theory, you are calling God a liar.

I have indeed been blessed. And continue to be blessed as I grow and learn. But that doesn't mean I am exclusively blessed. So no, I am not calling God a liar. He will bless anyone who is willing to learn.
KJV John 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
The holy Spirit is available to everyone.
KJV Luke 11
9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

 

[tabletalk]

I don't understand hatred for the CC.
What about it do you hate?

For instance, you say the Mass is idolatry.
How??

The Mass proclaims that the bread and wine is (at the words of consecration) God Himself; in person, bodily, completely God.
Since it (the Eucharist) is a physical object, and being worshipped, it is an idol.
The hate is due to the sin of idolatry; not directed to each Catholic, but to the Catholic Church.
Protestants don't (usually) worship the bread and wine. Some may believe God is really present, spiritually or in a memorial sort of way. Or, some other understanding which would compare well with Scripture.
But, I don't believe those objects are God.

 

[farouk]

I don't understand hatred for the CC.
What about it do you hate?

For instance, you say the Mass is idolatry.
How??

I too love talking to Roman Catholic people; especially these days, sometimes they have far more Godly fear than other people tend to have.

Doctrinally, Hebrews chapters 9 and 10 speak of the finished work of Christ at the Cross.

Hebrews 9.26: "..now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

Hebrews 9.28: "..Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Hebrews 10.9 & 10: "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Hebrews 10.12: "..this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God".

Hebrews 10.14: "..by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

This is why Bible believing Protestants strongly tend to see the Lord's Supper as a remembrance of a finished work by which the believer finds complete acceptance with God.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Mass proclaims that the bread and wine is (at the words of consecration) God Himself; in person, bodily, completely God.
Since it (the Eucharist) is a physical object, and being worshipped, it is an idol.
The hate is due to the sin of idolatry; not directed to each Catholic, but to the Catholic Church.
Protestants don't (usually) worship the bread and wine. Some may believe God is really present, spiritually or in a memorial sort of way. Or, some other understanding which would compare well with Scripture.
But, I don't believe those objects are God.

I really don't understand this myself.
But I don't see why it should be a reason to hate the doctrine.
I've been reading the Early Church Fathers (theologians) for the past couple of years or so, and I'm finding that they did give much creedence to the idea of the Eucharist being special in some way we don't quite understand.

I could post some of their writings, but we need to come to the understanding with the help of the Holy Spirit.

I just would like to say that we shouldn't put any doctrine down UNLESS we're very sure what Jesus meant by what He said. Too many years have gone by and we live in a different culture -- we should proceed with caution.

 

[GodsGrace]

I too love talking to Roman Catholic people; especially these days, sometimes they have far more Godly fear than other people tend to have.

Doctrinally, Hebrews chapters 9 and 10 speak of the finished work of Christ at the Cross.

Hebrews 9.26: "..now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

Hebrews 9.28: "..Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Hebrews 10.9 & 10: "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

Hebrews 10.12: "..this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God".

Hebrews 10.14: "..by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

This is why Bible believing Protestants strongly tend to see the Lord's Supper as a remembrance of a finished work by which the believer finds complete acceptance with God.

Yes, but Catholics see it this way too !
I often hear that the priest re-sacrifices Jesus at every Mass.
This is not true. What happens is that the FIRST AND ONLY sacrifice of Jesus is offered to God....Jesus is not sacrificed again.

If one reads the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) it seems as though He is.
I dislike how the CCC is worded - it causes many problems even for teaching with it.

However, I have asked AT LEAST 3 priests and they repeat to me what I've stated above.

I DO believe a priest knows what he's doing at the Mass !

 

[farouk]

Yes, but Catholics see it this way too !
I often hear that the priest re-sacrifices Jesus at every Mass.
This is not true. What happens is that the FIRST AND ONLY sacrifice of Jesus is offered to God....Jesus is not sacrificed again.

If one reads the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) it seems as though He is.
I dislike how the CCC is worded - it causes many problems even for teaching with it.

However, I have asked AT LEAST 3 priests and they repeat to me what I've stated above.

I DO believe a priest knows what he's doing at the Mass !

Well, the focus of what Bible believing Protestants believe is on what Scripture says, as in the verses quoted, and also in passages such as Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22 and 1 Corinthians 11.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, the focus of what Bible believing Protestants believe is on what Scripture says, as in the verses quoted, and also in passages such as Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22 and 1 Corinthians 11.

Agreed. But how do we get around John 6?
Especially John 6:54 .....look it up in the Greek. It means to chew.
I don't know how that's spiritual.

Anyway, I don't think about this too much...
I'm sure God will forgive those who got it wrong if we just love Him and follow His ways.

 

[farouk]

Agreed. But how do we get around John 6?
Especially John 6:54 .....look it up in the Greek. It means to chew.
I don't know how that's spiritual.

Anyway, I don't think about this too much...
I'm sure God will forgive those who got it wrong if we just love Him and follow His ways.

Actually I don't see the Lord's Supper in John 6. The Lord Jesus is speaking about faith in Him, not partaking of the emblems. It's faith alone (Eohesians 2) that is to be depended on.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Mass proclaims that the bread and wine is (at the words of consecration) God Himself; in person, bodily, completely God.
Since it (the Eucharist) is a physical object, and being worshipped, it is an idol.
The hate is due to the sin of idolatry; not directed to each Catholic, but to the Catholic Church.
Protestants don't (usually) worship the bread and wine. Some may believe God is really present, spiritually or in a memorial sort of way. Or, some other understanding which would compare well with Scripture.
But, I don't believe those objects are God.

WRONG.

It’s only “idolatry” if it is NOT Christ. If the Eucharist is just a piece of bread and a cup of wine – then it IS idolatry. HOWEVER – if it is truly the body and blood of Christ – as HE Himself says it is (Matt. 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:18-20, 1 Cor. 11:23-25) – then it is NOT idolatry but genuine worship of God.

Just because YOU lack the faith to believe in the words of Christ doesn’t make it “idolatry” . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Actually I don't see the Lord's Supper in John 6. The Lord Jesus is speaking about faith in Him, not partaking of the emblems. It's faith alone (Eohesians 2) that is to be depended on.

That’s because the Lord’s Supper isn’t in John 6.
It’s in Matt. 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:18-20, and 1 Cor. 11:23-25.

What Jesus described in the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6 is the necessity of consuming Him BOLDILY. Just as the Jews consumed the Passover Lamb – we are to consume the Lamb of God. John doesn’t use the normal word for human eating (Phagon) here in John 6 – but the word for the way an animal rips apart his food (Trogon). He is driving the point home to the Gnostic heretics to whom he was writing.

The Gnostics rejected any and ALL tangible things as well as possessions.

If Jesus wasn’t speaking literally – then John 6:66 makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever:
John 6:66
As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

What was Jesus’ response? Did He try to explain to them that they were confused??
No – in the very next verse, He turns to the Apostles and says:
John 6:67
Do you ALSO want to leave?

Jesus MEANT what He said – and they couldn’t handle it.

As for “faith alone” – the ONLY place we read this phrase in Scripture is in James 2:24, where is explicitly states:
James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.

 

[farouk]

I think the Epistles to the Romans and to the Galatians are really helpful as regards justification, a key doctrine.

 

[tabletalk]

WRONG.

It’s only “idolatry” if it is NOT Christ. If the Eucharist is just a piece of bread and a cup of wine – then it IS idolatry. HOWEVER – if it is truly the body and blood of Christ – as HE Himself says it is (Matt. 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:18-20, 1 Cor. 11:23-25) – then it is NOT idolatry but genuine worship of God.

Just because YOU lack the faith to believe in the words of Christ doesn’t make it “idolatry” . . .

I agree with your statement: 'It’s only “idolatry” if it is NOT Christ.'

But, I think I have the faith of the Apostles, which teaches that one should not worship a physical object.

The Apostle Paul said:
(Romans 8)"24. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25. But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance."
And: (2Corinthians 5) " 7. For we walk by faith, not by sight."
And: (Hebrews 11,unknown author) 11. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

 

[farouk]

All I know is this: Macron can't be the anti-Christ...I don't think he's liked much in France. Wouldn't the AC have to be loved?

I posted it to show how anyone could be made out to be the Anti Christ.
I think this was done for Trump too.

My belief is that we just don't know and shouldn't assume.

Speculating might not be constructive.

True about a future popular figure emerging.

It's far better to trust God's Word than to worry and speculate.

 

[farouk]

I agree with your statement: 'It’s only “idolatry” if it is NOT Christ.'

But, I think I have the faith of the Apostles, which teaches that one should not worship a physical object.

The Apostle Paul said:
(Romans 8)"24. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25. But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance."
And: (2Corinthians 5) " 7. For we walk by faith, not by sight."
And: (Hebrews 11,unknown author) 11. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Great verses there!

 

[BreadOfLife]

I agree with your statement: 'It’s only “idolatry” if it is NOT Christ.'

But, I think I have the faith of the Apostles, which teaches that one should not worship a physical object.

The Apostle Paul said:
(Romans 8)"24. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25. But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance."
And: (2Corinthians 5) " 7. For we walk by faith, not by sight."
And: (Hebrews 11,unknown author) 11. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

So, Thomas was WRONG to worship the physical Christ (John 20-28)??

The Apostles in the boat were IDOLATORS (Matt. 14:33)??

Explain . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Great verses there!

Read post #718 . . .

 

[Phoneman777]

History lesson: The first three (Luther, Zwingli, Calvin) didn't receive the same answer. They all had various beliefs, doctrines, dogmas etc. and all claimed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit. Have you not read YOUR Christian history? Or do you just read anti-Catholic literature?

You said you "don't know either well enough to judge". I hope you didn't mean the word "judge". Did you mean to give an "opinion" on?

Who was the Spirit given to that is able to guide us to the truth??? YOU? Luther? Joseph Smith? Do you believe you have been blessed and can guide us to the truth?? If you answer is YES then does that mean, based on your own theory, you are calling God a liar. If your answer is NO then why should anyone listen to you?

Curious Mary

Marymog, they all DID receive the same answer: that salvation is by grace through faith in God's promises, not by works...and that the Roman catholic papacy is the Antichrist of prophecy.

Let's not forget that several times two popes reigned, each claiming the other was illegit...or the endless contradictory positions that catholic leaders held and do hold today. Are they listening to Satan, too?