Judgement Seat of Christ for who ?

[Gray_Joy]

Acts 2:38, Acts 8:14-18 teaches how believers THEN received the HS
Eph 1:13 teaches how the HS is received today.
What differences do you see ?

Differing accounts of the holy spirit indwelling believers.

I think the important consistency there is,the believers sealing by the holy spirit,whenever it occurs in God's own time.

 

[PeterAndroz]

Differing accounts of the holy spirit indwelling believers.

I think the important consistency there is,the believers sealing by the holy spirit,whenever it occurs in God's own time.

The process today is by faith ALONE - Eph 1:13
The process BACK THEN was by faith, repent, baptize, lay hands & pray
Where does Paul (Romans to Philemon) teach that for today ? Nowhere
Conc :- The Gospel that Christ taught to Paul in Gal 1:11-12 differs SLIGHTLY to the Gospel taught by the 12 that applied to their audience back then.

 

[jeffweeder]

The process today is by faith ALONE - Eph 1:13
The process BACK THEN was by faith, repent, baptize, lay hands & pray

Repentance is always required for the forgiveness of one's sin.

Upon the rock of Peter's confession Christ would build his Church.
Its the same Gospel then right?

Gentiles are part of that Church. They have everything in common with Peter's cofession.

9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

Paul is comfortable with the idea that Peter's Gospel is sufficient for any Gentile for salvation.
You should be as well.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In that case we are in agreement.
A Eph 4:30 sealed till redemption believer can never become UNsealed & is eternally saved.

I don't see where you said that anywhere in your post. But, I'm not going to argue about this point here since that's not what this thread is about.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The process today is by faith ALONE - Eph 1:13
The process BACK THEN was by faith, repent, baptize, lay hands & pray

Goodness sakes. You are terribly mistaken. You apparently don't even know what faith is. For one thing, repentance and faith go hand in hand and that has always been the case. You can't put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ without repenting of your sins and acknowledging Him as Lord and as your Savior from the wages of sin. Water baptism has NEVER been required for salvation. It's something you do after being saved. Read Acts 10:42-47. The Gentiles Peter preached to were baptized with water after believing and receiving the Holy Spirit (after being saved).

Where does Paul (Romans to Philemon) teach that for today ? Nowhere
Conc :- The Gospel that Christ taught to Paul in Gal 1:11-12 differs SLIGHTLY to the Gospel taught by the 12 that applied to their audience back then.

Nonsense.

 

[rwb]

The reward of eternal life in the kingdom of God is not a reward that is earned by good works, it is a reward for obeying God's command to repent and surrender one's life to Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. It is a reward for accepting God's gracious offer of the gift of salvation/eternal life (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 6:23, Matthew 22:1-14, Titus 2:11). It's not earned, it's a gracious gift that we receive through faith.

Yes, you have this much right. We have eternal life from the moment we believe and have been born again. But you also believe, (even though you aren't saying so here) that our eternal life from the moment we have been born again is not ETERNAL! Since you don't believe in ETERNAL SECURITY for all who have been born again, you think born again believers shall not have eternal life until we stand before God at the GWTJ.

But, scripture speaks of other kinds of rewards for believers as well. Such as in the following passage...

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

I believe "the Day" here is the day of judgment when Jesus returns, as described in Matthew 25:31-46. We can see here a description of believers receiving a reward if their work or deeds are such that they were found to be enduring. And you can see that any other kind of work "is burned" and the person "will suffer loss" of reward, but they still "will be saved" and have eternal life.

You might disagree, that this passage is referring to something that will happen on the day Jesus returns, so I will back that up by showing what Jesus Himself said about believers receiving rewards beyond eternal life. But, I wanted to first show this passage to prove that believers will be given other rewards besides the ultimate reward of eternal life.

Yes, Scripture does say that faithful saints (born again believers) are rewarded in this life, also chastened. When we read the whole context in 1Cor 3 we learn there was a division among believers in the church. They disagreed over who was greater, some saying I am of Paul and others saying I am of Apollos. But both men were ministers according to the grace of God bestowed upon them, and through the ministry of both men people were being eternally saved, but some also remained in unbelief. So, Paul tells them, I have planted and Apollos has watered for the building up of the Church. Both the one who plants and the one who waters "shall receive his own reward according to his own labour".

1 Corinthians 3:9-11 (KJV) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Paul is very clear, every man seeking to be a "masterbuilder" are God's husbandry is building according to grace given by God. Every man seeking to build for God is building upon the foundation of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (KJV) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Sometimes building upon the foundation of Christ produces faithful saints, but some who hear of Christ also remain in darkness and unbelief. Paul likens building the Kingdom of God through the gospel of Jesus Christ as our trial of faith in this age, and our work that produces gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble that shall be made known through the fiery trial. When our good work produces believers, our work abides and that is our reward. But when our good work of faith produces nothing but bad that sort will be burned up! And though we suffer loss because our work of faith seems to be in vain because it shall be burned up, we shall still be saved as though by fire.

Our reward in this life is the knowledge that our work is not in vain because we know the Kingdom of God through proclaiming the Gospel of Christ is being built as long as we remain faithful to do all that God has ordained for us in this life. Now we have a down payment so to speak, that is ETERNAL spiritual life through the Spirit of Christ in us, and when this world ends, we shall receive the FULL REWARD of IMMORTAL/INCORRUPTIBLE physical body made alive through our eternal spirit that Christ will bring back with Him. Then once again as complete living soul we shall live with Christ forever on the new earth.

1 Peter 4:11-14 (KJV) If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

So, in the following parable about His return, Jesus indicates that there will be varying rewards given to believers when He returns.

Luke 19:13 (KJV) And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Luke 19:15 (KJV) And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

In the parable the ten servants represent the church as it existed before preaching the Gospel unto all the nations of the world. Christ says that while He is gone from this world, they were to be busy (occupy) building the Kingdom by proclaiming the Kingdom of God has come through Him. You're reading the parable as though Christ is speaking of His return at the end of this world, but the parable is about how the Kingdom of God proclaimed through the gospel of Christ is built when His people are faithfully preaching of Him. In the beginning of the church, the servants of the nobleman were obstructed by the citizens (Jews) who sent a message saying, "We will not have this man to reign over us".

The nobleman (Christ) returned after receiving the Kingdom that He received when He ascended to heaven and was given the everlasting Kingdom that can never be destroyed. (Dan. 7:13-14)

As Christ promised before departing this world, He has come again to us by sending His Spirit to be in us.

The parable is not about the second coming of Christ and our receiving reward(S) according to our good works. The parable speaks of how we work to build the Kingdom of God through the Gospel of Christ in this age. When we are faithful in much in this life, then in this life we will be given greater authority in this life because much has been gained for the Kingdom of God. But to them that show little faith in doing little even the little they have shall be taken from them. And all those enemies of Christ who did not desire Him to reign over them will be SLAYED, not burned up as they shall at the GWTJ.

John 14:16-18 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Christ has received the Kingdom of God and through His Spirit He has come again to whosoever has been born again.

Your claim that "We NEVER read of reward(S) for believers at the judgment. There is ALWAYS only one REWARD, and that is the same REWARD that every believer shall receive at the end of this world." is clearly false. Both Jesus and Paul clearly taught that some believers will receive rewards even beyond the reward of eternal life in the kingdom of God that we will all receive.

NO, neither Jesus nor Paul teach believers will receive reward(S) beyond the ONE GREAT REWARD in the coming Kingdom of God. Now, in this life born again believers possess eternal spiritual life through Christ's Spirit, and at the end of this world when Christ comes again, we shall possess both immortal/incorruptible body of flesh made alive through our eternal spirit that shall return with Christ.

 

[rwb]

How are believers 'today' saved, sealed, justified, made righteous ?
By the SAVING Gospel that applies today.

Peter, salvation from the beginning of man has always been through the power of the Holy Spirit when we hear the Gospel of Christ proclaimed.

Galatians 3:8 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 3:16-18 (KJV) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Genesis 22:16-18 (KJV) And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Genesis 18:18-19 (KJV) Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Romans 10:8-13 (KJV) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:14-21 (KJV) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Before Pentecost when Christ sent His Spirit to be in believers, the Spirit has always been with whosoever of Old was of faith in Christ. They learned of the coming Messiah through the Law that pointed them to the One who could redeem them, and they learned of the Messiah through the prophets of Old who foretell of His coming that was fulfilled when Christ came to earth in mortal flesh. The way to eternal life through Christ that Paul taught, He learned from the Law and prophets as well as personally from Christ speaking to him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, you have this much right. We have eternal life from the moment we believe and have been born again. But you also believe, (even though you aren't saying so here) that our eternal life from the moment we have been born again is not ETERNAL!

That is completely besides the point that I'm making. Your continual attempts to turn this into a OSAS vs. NOSAS debate shows that you don't even understand what we're debating here. My point has to do with when we will appear before Jesus to give an account of ourselves and who will be doing that. That's what is being debated here. Whether OSAS or NOSAS is true has no bearing on that.

Since you don't believe in ETERNAL SECURITY for all who have been born again, you think born again believers shall not have eternal life until we stand before God at the GWTJ.

You really should not try to talk for me. You don't even understand what I believe. Most of your arguments are just strawman arguments. We won't have eternal bodily life until then. That's undeniable. So, we will inherit eternal life in that sense at that time. That's what I'm saying, but you miss that because you don't make the effort to actually understand what I believe. But, spiritually speaking, our eternal life is secured once we have proven to be faithful until death.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Yes, Scripture does say that faithful saints (born again believers) are rewarded in this life, also chastened. When we read the whole context in 1Cor 3 we learn there was a division among believers in the church. They disagreed over who was greater, some saying I am of Paul and others saying I am of Apollos. But both men were ministers according to the grace of God bestowed upon them, and through the ministry of both men people were being eternally saved, but some also remained in unbelief. So, Paul tells them, I have planted and Apollos has watered for the building up of the Church. Both the one who plants and the one who waters "shall receive his own reward according to his own labour".

1 Corinthians 3:9-11 (KJV) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Paul is very clear, every man seeking to be a "masterbuilder" are God's husbandry is building according to grace given by God. Every man seeking to build for God is building upon the foundation of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (KJV) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Sometimes building upon the foundation of Christ produces faithful saints, but some who hear of Christ also remain in darkness and unbelief. Paul likens building the Kingdom of God through the gospel of Jesus Christ as our trial of faith in this age, and our work that produces gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble that shall be made known through the fiery trial. When our good work produces believers, our work abides and that is our reward. But when our good work of faith produces nothing but bad that sort will be burned up! And though we suffer loss because our work of faith seems to be in vain because it shall be burned up, we shall still be saved as though by fire.

Our reward in this life is the knowledge that our work is not in vain because we know the Kingdom of God through proclaiming the Gospel of Christ is being built as long as we remain faithful to do all that God has ordained for us in this life. Now we have a down payment so to speak, that is ETERNAL spiritual life through the Spirit of Christ in us, and when this world ends, we shall receive the FULL REWARD of IMMORTAL/INCORRUPTIBLE physical body made alive through our eternal spirit that Christ will bring back with Him. Then once again as complete living soul we shall live with Christ forever on the new earth.

1 Peter 4:11-14 (KJV) If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Those scriptures are not just talking about rewards in this life, but rewards that will be given to us when Jesus returns, as I showed in the parable of Luke 19:11-27.

Luke 19:13 (KJV) And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Luke 19:15 (KJV) And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

In the parable the ten servants represent the church as it existed before preaching the Gospel unto all the nations of the world. Christ says that while He is gone from this world, they were to be busy (occupy) building the Kingdom by proclaiming the Kingdom of God has come through Him. You're reading the parable as though Christ is speaking of His return at the end of this world, but the parable is about how the Kingdom of God proclaimed through the gospel of Christ is built when His people are faithfully preaching of Him.

It is speaking of His return at the end of this world. What do you think the "certain nobleman" going "into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom" represents? It represents His ascension to heaven. We can see in passages like Daniel 7:13-14 and Ephesians 1:19-22 that He received His kingdom when He ascended to the right hand of the Father. So, why would you think His return from where He went, which was heaven, would represent anything except for His second coming from heaven?

In the beginning of the church, the servants of the nobleman were obstructed by the citizens (Jews) who sent a message saying, "We will not have this man to reign over us".

The nobleman (Christ) returned after receiving the Kingdom that He received when He ascended to heaven and was given the everlasting Kingdom that can never be destroyed. (Dan. 7:13-14)

As Christ promised before departing this world, He has come again to us by sending His Spirit to be in us.

The context is of Him going away physically and bodily, so His return should be understood in the same context. And it refers to Him coming not only to give rewards to believers, but also to punish unbelievers. So, you can't use the coming of His Spirit to dwell in us as an explanation for what the parable is about since His Spirit dwelling in us has nothing to do with punishing unbelievers.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The parable is not about the second coming of Christ and our receiving reward(S) according to our good works.

Yes, it is. Once again, you have adopted another view that is in a very small minority. You have several such views. Do you think you have more spiritual discernment than a vast majority of other Christians? The only other ones I know of who would deny that the parable is about the future second coming of Christ are preterists, but they don't take the view that it's talking about the coming of the Holy Spirit, but rather they think what happened in 70 AD was coming of Christ in judgment. I completely disagree with that.

The parable speaks of how we work to build the Kingdom of God through the Gospel of Christ in this age. When we are faithful in much in this life, then in this life we will be given greater authority in this life because much has been gained for the Kingdom of God. But to them that show little faith in doing little even the little they have shall be taken from them. And all those enemies of Christ who did not desire Him to reign over them will be SLAYED, not burned up as they shall at the GWTJ.

John 14:16-18 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Christ has received the Kingdom of God and through His Spirit He has come again to whosoever has been born again.

What? The reference to them being slayed is just figurative and not literal, similar to what we see in Revelation 19 where it talks about unbelievers being slayed by the sword that Christ figuratively has in His mouth. So, the literally way in which they will be punished is with fire, but they are figuratively described as being slayed. And scripture is clear that unbelievers will be slayed at His return. Are you saying you believe that the following has already occurred or has already been occurring?

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

If so, who exactly do you think this is referring to and how exactly were they slayed before Him or have been being slayed before Him?

NO, neither Jesus nor Paul teach believers will receive reward(S) beyond the ONE GREAT REWARD in the coming Kingdom of God.

Why would you believe that when you do believe that believers receive other rewards even now? You obviously don't have anything against the idea of believers receiving rewards (plural) now because of what is written in the 1 Corinthians 3 and Luke 19 passages, so why not when Jesus returns as well?

 

[Gray_Joy]

In that case we are in agreement.
A Eph 4:30 sealed till redemption believer can never become UNsealed & is eternally saved.

That's God's eternal word.

 

[Gray_Joy]

The process today is by faith ALONE - Eph 1:13
The process BACK THEN was by faith, repent, baptize, lay hands & pray
Where does Paul (Romans to Philemon) teach that for today ? Nowhere
Conc :- The Gospel that Christ taught to Paul in Gal 1:11-12 differs SLIGHTLY to the Gospel taught by the 12 that applied to their audience back then.

I don't think the Apostles or Jesus ever taught salvation by works.
Or,am I misunderstanding that as what you are saying there?