Gray_Joy
Active Member
Differing accounts of the holy spirit indwelling believers.
I think the important consistency there is,the believers sealing by the holy spirit,whenever it occurs in God's own time.
Judgement Seat of Christ for who ?
- Thread starter PeterAndroz
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I think the important consistency there is,the believers sealing by the holy spirit,whenever it occurs in God's own time.
The process today is by faith ALONE - Eph 1:13
The process BACK THEN was by faith, repent, baptize, lay hands & pray
Where does Paul (Romans to Philemon) teach that for today ? Nowhere
Conc :- The Gospel that Christ taught to Paul in Gal 1:11-12 differs SLIGHTLY to the Gospel taught by the 12 that applied to their audience back then.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Repentance is always required for the forgiveness of one's sin.
Gentiles are part of that Church. They have everything in common with Peter's cofession.
Paul is comfortable with the idea that Peter's Gospel is sufficient for any Gentile for salvation.
You should be as well.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I don't see where you said that anywhere in your post. But, I'm not going to argue about this point here since that's not what this thread is about.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Goodness sakes. You are terribly mistaken. You apparently don't even know what faith is. For one thing, repentance and faith go hand in hand and that has always been the case. You can't put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ without repenting of your sins and acknowledging Him as Lord and as your Savior from the wages of sin. Water baptism has NEVER been required for salvation. It's something you do after being saved. Read Acts 10:42-47. The Gentiles Peter preached to were baptized with water after believing and receiving the Holy Spirit (after being saved).
Nonsense.
Yes, you have this much right. We have eternal life from the moment we believe and have been born again. But you also believe, (even though you aren't saying so here) that our eternal life from the moment we have been born again is not ETERNAL! Since you don't believe in ETERNAL SECURITY for all who have been born again, you think born again believers shall not have eternal life until we stand before God at the GWTJ.
Yes, Scripture does say that faithful saints (born again believers) are rewarded in this life, also chastened. When we read the whole context in 1Cor 3 we learn there was a division among believers in the church. They disagreed over who was greater, some saying I am of Paul and others saying I am of Apollos. But both men were ministers according to the grace of God bestowed upon them, and through the ministry of both men people were being eternally saved, but some also remained in unbelief. So, Paul tells them, I have planted and Apollos has watered for the building up of the Church. Both the one who plants and the one who waters "shall receive his own reward according to his own labour".
1 Corinthians 3:9-11 (KJV) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Paul is very clear, every man seeking to be a "masterbuilder" are God's husbandry is building according to grace given by God. Every man seeking to build for God is building upon the foundation of Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (KJV) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Sometimes building upon the foundation of Christ produces faithful saints, but some who hear of Christ also remain in darkness and unbelief. Paul likens building the Kingdom of God through the gospel of Jesus Christ as our trial of faith in this age, and our work that produces gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble that shall be made known through the fiery trial. When our good work produces believers, our work abides and that is our reward. But when our good work of faith produces nothing but bad that sort will be burned up! And though we suffer loss because our work of faith seems to be in vain because it shall be burned up, we shall still be saved as though by fire.
Our reward in this life is the knowledge that our work is not in vain because we know the Kingdom of God through proclaiming the Gospel of Christ is being built as long as we remain faithful to do all that God has ordained for us in this life. Now we have a down payment so to speak, that is ETERNAL spiritual life through the Spirit of Christ in us, and when this world ends, we shall receive the FULL REWARD of IMMORTAL/INCORRUPTIBLE physical body made alive through our eternal spirit that Christ will bring back with Him. Then once again as complete living soul we shall live with Christ forever on the new earth.
1 Peter 4:11-14 (KJV) If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
Luke 19:13 (KJV) And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
Luke 19:15 (KJV) And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
In the parable the ten servants represent the church as it existed before preaching the Gospel unto all the nations of the world. Christ says that while He is gone from this world, they were to be busy (occupy) building the Kingdom by proclaiming the Kingdom of God has come through Him. You're reading the parable as though Christ is speaking of His return at the end of this world, but the parable is about how the Kingdom of God proclaimed through the gospel of Christ is built when His people are faithfully preaching of Him. In the beginning of the church, the servants of the nobleman were obstructed by the citizens (Jews) who sent a message saying, "We will not have this man to reign over us".
The nobleman (Christ) returned after receiving the Kingdom that He received when He ascended to heaven and was given the everlasting Kingdom that can never be destroyed. (Dan. 7:13-14)
As Christ promised before departing this world, He has come again to us by sending His Spirit to be in us.
The parable is not about the second coming of Christ and our receiving reward(S) according to our good works. The parable speaks of how we work to build the Kingdom of God through the Gospel of Christ in this age. When we are faithful in much in this life, then in this life we will be given greater authority in this life because much has been gained for the Kingdom of God. But to them that show little faith in doing little even the little they have shall be taken from them. And all those enemies of Christ who did not desire Him to reign over them will be SLAYED, not burned up as they shall at the GWTJ.
John 14:16-18 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Christ has received the Kingdom of God and through His Spirit He has come again to whosoever has been born again.
NO, neither Jesus nor Paul teach believers will receive reward(S) beyond the ONE GREAT REWARD in the coming Kingdom of God. Now, in this life born again believers possess eternal spiritual life through Christ's Spirit, and at the end of this world when Christ comes again, we shall possess both immortal/incorruptible body of flesh made alive through our eternal spirit that shall return with Christ.
Peter, salvation from the beginning of man has always been through the power of the Holy Spirit when we hear the Gospel of Christ proclaimed.
Galatians 3:8 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Galatians 3:16-18 (KJV) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Genesis 22:16-18 (KJV) And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Genesis 18:18-19 (KJV) Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Romans 10:8-13 (KJV) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:14-21 (KJV) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Before Pentecost when Christ sent His Spirit to be in believers, the Spirit has always been with whosoever of Old was of faith in Christ. They learned of the coming Messiah through the Law that pointed them to the One who could redeem them, and they learned of the Messiah through the prophets of Old who foretell of His coming that was fulfilled when Christ came to earth in mortal flesh. The way to eternal life through Christ that Paul taught, He learned from the Law and prophets as well as personally from Christ speaking to him.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That is completely besides the point that I'm making. Your continual attempts to turn this into a OSAS vs. NOSAS debate shows that you don't even understand what we're debating here. My point has to do with when we will appear before Jesus to give an account of ourselves and who will be doing that. That's what is being debated here. Whether OSAS or NOSAS is true has no bearing on that.
You really should not try to talk for me. You don't even understand what I believe. Most of your arguments are just strawman arguments. We won't have eternal bodily life until then. That's undeniable. So, we will inherit eternal life in that sense at that time. That's what I'm saying, but you miss that because you don't make the effort to actually understand what I believe. But, spiritually speaking, our eternal life is secured once we have proven to be faithful until death.
James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Those scriptures are not just talking about rewards in this life, but rewards that will be given to us when Jesus returns, as I showed in the parable of Luke 19:11-27.
It is speaking of His return at the end of this world. What do you think the "certain nobleman" going "into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom" represents? It represents His ascension to heaven. We can see in passages like Daniel 7:13-14 and Ephesians 1:19-22 that He received His kingdom when He ascended to the right hand of the Father. So, why would you think His return from where He went, which was heaven, would represent anything except for His second coming from heaven?
The context is of Him going away physically and bodily, so His return should be understood in the same context. And it refers to Him coming not only to give rewards to believers, but also to punish unbelievers. So, you can't use the coming of His Spirit to dwell in us as an explanation for what the parable is about since His Spirit dwelling in us has nothing to do with punishing unbelievers.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yes, it is. Once again, you have adopted another view that is in a very small minority. You have several such views. Do you think you have more spiritual discernment than a vast majority of other Christians? The only other ones I know of who would deny that the parable is about the future second coming of Christ are preterists, but they don't take the view that it's talking about the coming of the Holy Spirit, but rather they think what happened in 70 AD was coming of Christ in judgment. I completely disagree with that.
What? The reference to them being slayed is just figurative and not literal, similar to what we see in Revelation 19 where it talks about unbelievers being slayed by the sword that Christ figuratively has in His mouth. So, the literally way in which they will be punished is with fire, but they are figuratively described as being slayed. And scripture is clear that unbelievers will be slayed at His return. Are you saying you believe that the following has already occurred or has already been occurring?
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
If so, who exactly do you think this is referring to and how exactly were they slayed before Him or have been being slayed before Him?
Why would you believe that when you do believe that believers receive other rewards even now? You obviously don't have anything against the idea of believers receiving rewards (plural) now because of what is written in the 1 Corinthians 3 and Luke 19 passages, so why not when Jesus returns as well?
Gray_Joy
Active Member
Gray_Joy
Active Member
I don't think the Apostles or Jesus ever taught salvation by works.
Or,am I misunderstanding that as what you are saying there?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
He's saying that the 12 apostles taught a gospel where all these things he mentioned: "faith, repent, baptize, lay hands & pray" were required for salvation and that Paul taught a different gospel where only faith is required. Which is ridiculous because there is and always has been just the one gospel. It was even preached to Abraham.
Galatians 3:7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
The gospel has always been that people are saved by faith and not by good works or by works of the law.
Gray_Joy
Active Member
Thank you. That's ,what you explain, as I believe also.
This is why I sought clarification from @PeterAndroz as to his posting.
edit for clarification
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Nope.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2nd Corinthians 5:10
Word for word rejects your statement.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You need to put more effort into studying scripture than this. It's never a good idea to make a doctrine out of one verse. That verse does NOT reject my statement at all. What the verse does say is that those in the church will appear before the judgment seat of Christ, but it does NOT say that unbelievers will not appear before the judgment seat of Christ as well. That's an argument from silence.
I'll repeat what I said in the second post of this thread.
The unsaved will stand before the judgment seat of Christ, also, as Jesus Himself clearly indicated in Matthew 25:31-46.
If you look at Romans 14:10-12 more closely, you can see that there as well.
Romans 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
Notice that Paul references an Old Testament scripture in verse 11. He was referencing this...
Isaiah 45:22 “Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. 24 He shall say, ‘Surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him.
Notice that it's not just those who are saved that will bow and confess to God that Jesus is Lord, but also those "who are incensed against Him". So, that needs to be applied to what Paul wrote in Romans 14:10-12.
Every person who has ever lived and ever will live will one day appear before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves while bowing down before Him.
Philippians 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
LOL You funny.
We should not form or beliefs on one scripture. You are preaching to the choir.
You are talking to a formally educated Theologian, educated in 5 countries.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. 2nd Corinthians 5:10
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing. 2nd Timoty 4:7-8
Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; Romans 14:10
Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God. 1st Corinthians 4:5
For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Matthew 16:27
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. Matthew 25:31-32
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. Galatians 6:7
On that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. Romans 2:16
Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. Revelation 22:10
None of these scriptures say only the unsaved will be judged.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. I'm apparently speaking to someone who needs to humble himself and learn how to be teachable in a spiritual sense. I'm not impressed with your education even a tiny bit. It means nothing if you've not actually learned what the Bible teaches, which appears to be the case. You seem to be lacking in spiritual discernment, which is what matters.
LOL. I did not say that only the unsaved will be judged. All that education and you still don't have any reading comprehension skills. I'm saying that both the saved and unsaved will be judged at the same time when Jesus comes with His angels, just as is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. Is there anything you don't understand about what I'm telling you? Do you actually agree with me, after all?
It looks like what happened here is that you didn't bother reading everything I said in post #2 and you saw that I said that the unsaved will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and you thought I was saying only the unsaved will stand before the judgment seat of Christ? Is that correct? Despite my having said this in that same post:
I said:
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We have eternal spiritual life now, from the moment we are born again, and because we have ETERNAL life now through the Spirit of Christ in us, we are now waiting for and anticipating immortal/incorruptible physical life that shall be at His coming when the last trumpet sounds. It is at Christ's coming again that believers shall either be resurrected from the grave our body changed from mortal to immortal, or if we are still physically alive at His coming again, we shall be changed from mortal body to immortal and incorruptible body and together we shall all meet the Lord in the air.
Then at the GWTJ we who are eternally alive through immortal/incorruptible body will be at the right hand of God, not to be judged but to inherit the everlasting Kingdom of God prepared for us on the new earth to live with Christ forever.
Yes, we are spiritually alive possessing eternal life from the moment we have been born again. You say I continue to bring up the doctrine of eternal security through Christ, but it is you who keeps saying the eternal life we have in Christ is NOT really eternal until our body is changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. Have you not read that life is of the spirit and the flesh profits nothing? You want to make eternal life dependent upon the flesh, and our obedience while clothed in mortal, corruptible body destined to die. How are believers faithful unto death? Have you not read that the obedience we display in this mortal flesh, is done by the power of God working in us? What have we that has not been granted us through the Word by grace of God working in us?
John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 (KJV) For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
John 3:27 (KJV) John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
2 Corinthians 3:5 (KJV) Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
You quote these verses thinking to change statements of FACT to conditional statements that are dependent upon our faithfulness while clothed in mortal bodies of death.
The man who does not endure temptation does not love the Lord; the words are spoken to them that love Him. James is not saying what you imagine, that the crown of life is dependent upon a believer's good works in the flesh until the day they physically die. Because James also says that man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed by his fleshly desires which shall bring forth death to them who know NOT the Lord.
James 1:13-16 (KJV) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.
The statement of FACT stands "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Life that shall be of immortal/incorruptible body made alive through our eternal spirit that shall come with Christ.
Trying to make John's statement of FACT conditioned upon our faithfulness unto death doesn't work for you either. Because John is writing these words to those who are overcomers and shall not be hurt of the second death. That is those who already possess everlasting eternal spiritual life through the Spirit of Christ in us. We have already partaken of the tree of life, and the second death NOW cannot hurt us.
Revelation 2:7 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 2:10-11 (KJV) Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
1 John 5:4-5 (KJV) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Revelation 21:7 (KJV) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
I gave you the Scripture, Christ left this earth and received the Kingdom of God that is now spiritually in heaven. He did not leave nor forsake us, because He has come again to all who have been born again through His Spirit in us. Do you not believe that when Christ ascended into heaven and received the Kingdom He returned to us through His Spirit in us just as He promised He would? Only those in denial can read these following verses without understanding that Christ, after leaving this world, came again to us through His Spirit to give us assurance that He would never leave nor forsake us because His Spirit will be in us until our body is raised and changed to immortal and incorruptible body of flesh.
John 14:18 (KJV) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 15:26 (KJV) But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 14:16-21 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
The rewards we receive in this life for being faithful unto Christ is better understood as receiving BLESSINGS from God. We don't do good to earn the blessings from God, we do good works because we have already received His greatest blessing that is EVERLASTING ETERNAL life through the Spirit of Christ in us that can never be lost! We work because He works in and through us to do His good pleasure!
Gray_Joy
Active Member
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