Justification by Faith Alone

[GracePeace]

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness

face it man if I commit a sin Jesus did not pay for, I am done, there is no hope, I have no ability to pay for one sin not even the smallest of all sins

Romans 14:23 says sins committed today compromise your justification--the original point stands.

The rule is "let every man be fully convinced in his own mind", and if you don't follow that rule, you're sinning, and you bring condemnation on yourself which is the opposite of justification.

I noticed also that it says "if we go on sinning there remains no sacrifice".
Same theme.

 

[GracePeace]

we will have to agree to disagree on romans 14.

We can not see eye to eye there.

I have experienced what I see in that verse. so it is not just what I believe it is what I have experienced.

Satan almost took me out because of it

Anyway, the issue of "bringing condemnation on himself by what he approves" isn't even the issue--I'm talking about Romans 14:23. Romans 14:23 lays down a general principle "anything that not from faith is sin and you are condemned if you sin". You don't like that Scripture, apparently.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Romans 14:23 says sins committed today compromise your justification--the original point stands.

The rule is "let every man be fully convinced in his own mind", and if you don't follow that rule, you're sinning, and you bring condemnation on yourself which is the opposite of justification.

I noticed also that it says "if we go on sinning there remains no sacrifice".
Same theme.

it does not say this

But if you want to believe it go ahead

the penalty of sin is death, the GIFT OF GOD is eternal life - the apostle paul

Without the shedding of blood there can be no remission - the author of hebrews.

so your sort of out of luck if future sin can cause loss of salvation. there is no hope of any salvation then

 

[GracePeace]

1 John is clear

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves

He also said those who live in sin have never seen God or known God

Whoever is born of God can not live in sin

You may say I added the word Live. But the greek is not just saying a child of God never commits any sin whatsoever (sinless perfection) it speaks of habitual ongoing sin. Like the world.

If it is talking about sinless perfection. John himself is confused

Ever paul admitted he still sinned (rom 7) what I have learned is the closer you grow to God the more sinfgul you realise you realy were (are)

1. Yeah, Christians sin, which means your argument is disproven.
2. Yeah, and people can be "unborn" of God too Deuteronomy 32:5--"because his seed remains in him" but we know that people can lose that seed by reason of sin hardening their heart so that they can change to unbelieving Hebrews 3:12-13.
3. Romans 7 is a picture of Romans 6:14 "Sin shall not be your master for you are not under Law, but under Grace"--Romans 7:5 says it describes their lives "while we were in the flesh" but Christians are "not in the flesh but in the Spirit" Romans 8:9. In Romans 7, he says he cannot do the good Law which he wants to do, but in Romans 8:4 he says he fulfills the righteous requirement of the Law. In Romans 7, he says he is "taken captive" but in Romans 8:2 he says he is "set free". Romans 7 is pre-Christ.

 

[GracePeace]

it does not say this

But if you want to believe it go ahead

the penalty of sin is death, the GIFT OF GOD is eternal life - the apostle paul

Without the shedding of blood there can be no remission - the author of hebrews.

so your sort of out of luck if future sin can cause loss of salvation. there is no hope of any salvation then

Paul teaches that doers of good will be repaid with eternal life when they are judged at the end Romans 2:6-16.
Same as Galatians 6:6-10.

Sin affects your justification--it results in condemnation Romans 14:23.

 

[GracePeace]

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness

Yes, He died for our sins--and sin affects our justification Romans 14:23

He died for our sins to give us another shot at life.
Just as when the Jews were saved from Egypt.

The Jews went back to living in sin and fell under God's wrath.
The same can happen to us according to Paul 1 Corinthians 10.

 

[GracePeace]

the penalty of sin is death, the GIFT OF GOD is eternal life - the apostle paul

Look at the context of that verse--it says "because we have become slaves of righteousness, we obtain the fruit of righteousness, holiness, and the end of holiness is eternal life". Yes, because we are naturally holy, we can know God ("this is eternal life" John 17:3), and then we are expected to be "fruitful in the knowledge of the Lord" according to Peter, and that is by living righteously Matthew 5:14-16, and if we are "unprofitable" we will have what He sowed into us (the "talent") and be thrown into hell Matthew 25:26.

Without the shedding of blood there can be no remission - the author of hebrews.

Yep, and the same author says if those who have been forgiven go on sinning after having received the knowledge of the truth there remains no sacrifice. That's what I'm saying--sin affects your standing before God. It can bring condemnation.

so your sort of out of luck if future sin can cause loss of salvation. there is no hope of any salvation then

No, I'm just saying that God expects people to live in righteousness.
He Himself says the Kingdom of God is like a dragnet--it catches all sorts of marine life, but at the end, they go and sort through the catch and throw back the unclean marine life. God will throw people out of His Kingdom who are in it today. Who? Luke 17:1 those who go on sinning willfully.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Anyway, the issue of "bringing condemnation on himself by what he approves" isn't even the issue--I'm talking about Romans 14:23. Romans 14:23 lays down a general principle "anything that not from faith is sin and you are condemned if you sin". You don't like that Scripture, apparently.

it makes total sense. You start to condemn yourself. ie. You lose faith in your salvation. you start to question your salvation.

people do it all the time

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, He died for our sins--and sin affects our justification Romans 14:23

He died for our sins to give us another shot at life.
Just as when the Jews were saved from Egypt.

The Jews went back to living in sin and fell under God's wrath.
The same can happen to us according to Paul 1 Corinthians 10.

no

he died so that we may have life. not to give us another chance

He gave us eternal life not conditional life.

 

[GracePeace]

it makes total sense. You start to condemn yourself. ie. You lose faith in your salvation. you start to question your salvation.

people do it all the time

No, it doesn't make sense.

You're saying "condemns himself" doesn't mean "brings condemnation on himself".

Romans 14:23 doesn't say "condemns himself" it says "you're condemned if you sin".

 

[GracePeace]

no

he died so that we may have life. not to give us another chance

He gave us eternal life not conditional life.

Again, 1 Corinthians 10 says the Jews were saved by the blood of the Lamb and still fell under God's wrath to show us what can happen to us if we displease God with our actions which is what Romans 14:23 is teaching (works affect your standing before God).

 

[GracePeace]

it makes total sense. You start to condemn yourself. ie. You lose faith in your salvation. you start to question your salvation.

people do it all the time

How could a Jew "question whether he was delivered from Egypt"?
Would he somehow think he was back in Egypt?
That makes no sense.
"Salvation" is like being delivered from Egypt "the House of Bondage".
"Salvation" isn't a static standing with God unaffected by your deeds.
That's not what Scripture (eg, 1 Corinthians 10) teaches us.
Yes, we are saved from slavery/sin John 8:31-36--we'd better not pine to return.
We know what happened to those who pined to return to Egypt!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How could a Jew "question whether he was delivered from Egypt"?
Would he somehow think he was back in Egypt?
That makes no sense.
"Salvation" is like being delivered from Egypt "the House of Bondage".
"Salvation" isn't a static standing with God unaffected by your deeds.
That's not what Scripture (eg, 1 Corinthians 10) teaches us.
Yes, we are saved from slavery/sin John 8:31-36--we'd better not pine to return.
We know what happened to those who pined to return to Egypt!

the jews wanted to go back to egypt. They kept getting mad at moses.

The never entered because they never had faith

he who believed vs he who does not believe.

The ones who had faith entered in (except moses for reasons we know)

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already

again, we have eternal life not conditional.

 

[GracePeace]

the jews wanted to go back to egypt. They kept getting mad at moses.

The never entered because they never had faith

he who believed vs he who does not believe.

The ones who had faith entered in (except moses for reasons we know)

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already

again, we have eternal life not conditional.

You're arguing against Paul who says those things were written to show us what can happen to us. You reject the Bible for your tradition.

 

[Enoch111]

Yes, He died for our sins--and sin affects our justification

You still do not understand justification by grace through faith. So let's take a mundane example. A criminal also has a brother who is an upstanding citizen. The criminal murders an innocent person, is convicted, and sentenced to death. The upstanding brother loves his no-good brother so much that he offers to take the death penalty in his place. The judge agrees since justice will be served. The criminal goes Scot-free while his brother dies in his place.

That is what justification means. Your sins do not affect your justification since Christ paid the penalty for your sins. Does that mean that you can return to your evil ways? Absolutely not. You needed to repent in order to be justified by grace. Therefore you now need to live soberly, godly, and righteously. And you will do so if you know what it cost the Savior and you truly believed on Him.

 

[GracePeace]

You still do not understand justification by grace through faith. So let's take a mundane example. A criminal also has a brother who is an upstanding citizen. The criminal murders an innocent person, is convicted, and sentenced to death. The upstanding brother loves his no-good brother so much that he offers to take the death penalty in his place. The judge agrees since justice will be served. The criminal goes Scot-free while his brother dies in his place.

That is what justification means. Your sins do not affect your justification since Christ paid the penalty for your sins. Does that mean that you can return to your evil ways? Absolutely not. You needed to repent in order to be justified by grace. Therefore you now need to live soberly, godly, and righteously. And you will do so if you know what it cost the Savior and you truly believed on Him.

Of course I understand it.

Psalm 85:5
I will hear what God the LORD will say; For He will speak peace to His people, to His godly ones; And may they not turn back to foolishness.

What "foolishness"?

Psalm 69:5
God, You know my foolishness, And my guilt is not hidden from You.

As the Law says

Deuteronomy 4:6
So keep and do them, for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes and say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’

The DOING of the Law was "wisdom"--and the inference is that if you BREAK the Law it is "folly".

So what is the "folly" they are not to return to?
Sin.
Let them not return to sin.

Same thing 1 Corinthians 10 is teaching.

Why is there "no condemnation for those in Christ"? Because they're no longer slaves of sin by which they had been automatically bringing condemnation on themselves with their sin... but if you go back to sin, you will bring condemnation on yourself just as Romans 14:23 teaches.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of course I understand it.

Psalm 85:5
I will hear what God the LORD will say; For He will speak peace to His people, to His godly ones; And may they not turn back to foolishness.

What "foolishness"?

Psalm 69:5
God, You know my foolishness, And my guilt is not hidden from You.

As the Law says

Deuteronomy 4:6
So keep and do them, for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes and say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’

The DOING of the Law was "wisdom"--and the inference is that if you BREAK the Law it is "folly".

So what is the "folly" they are not to return to?
Sin.
Let them not return to sin.

Same thing 1 Corinthians 10 is teaching.

Why is there "no condemnation for those in Christ"? Because they're no longer slaves of sin by which they had been automatically bringing condemnation on themselves with their sin... but if you go back to sin, you will bring condemnation on yourself just as Romans 14:23 teaches.

A dog returns to his vomit because he is well, a dog.

Abraham believed God. before he did any work, and he was declared righteous based on his faith. He then committed all his sins of adultry and Laughing at God, and trying to pass of his wife as his sister so he could have his life spared.

A believer does not return to their sin. They have a lifetime of trying to recover and break the habits of their sin with the help of God but when it comes right down to it. No one lives up to Gods standard. so by defenition. We are all sinners each and every day. Return to sin?

Why don't you see you as God wants to see you..and enter his rest. and stop your work?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You're arguing against Paul who says those things were written to show us what can happen to us. You reject the Bible for your tradition.

Nah

Paul preached eternal life. He did warn people alot though To make sure their faith was real and not just mere lip service. He also warned them about adding works to the gospel. and even told them if they did. they are fools

so why are you trying to perfect your salvation in the flesh?

 

[GracePeace]

A dog returns to his vomit because he is well, a dog.

Abraham believed God. before he did any work, and he was declared righteous based on his faith. He then committed all his sins of adultry and Laughing at God, and trying to pass of his wife as his sister so he could have his life spared.

A believer does not return to their sin. They have a lifetime of trying to recover and break the habits of their sin with the help of God but when it comes right down to it. No one lives up to Gods standard. so by defenition. We are all sinners each and every day. Return to sin?

Why don't you see you as God wants to see you..and enter his rest. and stop your work?

"His People" turned back after having had faith, and this serves as a warning to us, irrespective your manmade tradition which rejects the Bible, according to 1 Corinthians 10, and shows my interpretation Romans 14:23 as a warning ("sin condemns") is valid.

Stop denying reality.

 

[GracePeace]

Nah

Paul preached eternal life. He did warn people alot though To make sure their faith was real and not just mere lip service. He also warned them about adding works to the gospel. and even told them if they did. they are fools

so why are you trying to perfect your salvation in the flesh?

1. No, Paul warned them to check and make sure they had not left the faith (eg, as many of the Galatians had) 2 Corinthians 13:5. Paul didn't think people couldn't fall away. That's why even though they'd already had Christ preached to them, and had received the Spirit Galatians 3:1-5, Paul was trying to form Christ in them all over again Galatians 4:19.

2. You're misunderstanding Paul's argument in Galatians : he doesn't say "we're not saved by works of the Law, instead just believe" but "we're free from the Law--we have the New way of the Spirit, so serve one another by faith which works through love". He never said "faith alone" there, he literally says "eternal life will be harvested in the future judgment by those who sow good deeds today" in Galatians 6:6-10. Now, the tenor of the work is to be peace, and not fear (as if we were being threatened), but that's a different issue.