Keeping Jesus' commands is requirement for salvation, not the doctrine of trinity

[SilenceInMotion]

The Apostles believed in the Holy Trinity They understood the nature of God to be "three persons in one God." They knew that Christ was God incarnate. The modalists came in the second century and was founded by Theodotus. The modualists were first called "Theodotians" after their founder.

You are correct in that one does not need to believe in the Trinity to be saved. Yet, it helps one to understand His true nature.

I believe all the apostles knew the Trinity and had it in their heart, it was just wasn't explicitly realized to them, or at the very least, to some of them. For example, If you look at the epistle of John, it is seen clearly that he attempts to explain the Godhead in a way a gentile could understand:

In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with (or pertained to) the Mighty One, and the Mighty One was the Logos.

In all reality, you could go either way with that explanation. It really requires a thorough exegesis of scripture to realize that the Godhead is trinitarian rather then a changing mode, which is pretty much what modalism is. That's why even at the beginnings of Christianity, there was a bit of confusion up until it was deduced in finality and indoctrined.

 

[williemac]

This thread is not about me, friend. It is about what Jesus commands.


Hi daq,

thank you for your kind reply. those verses are already in the OP.

I have this thread because trinity believers dont seem to honor Jesus' teachings or commands. If we appreciate "grace", we will not say obeying Jesus' teachings are not requirement for salvation.

Jesus Himself taught that everlasting life, living forever, was attained through faith in Him. (John 3:16, John 6:47, John 6:50,51) I obey these teachings in these verses. Unless you are going to suggest that Jesus contradicted Himself, then I suggest we accept these verses as His way to salvation.

 

[meshak]

Jesus Himself taught that everlasting life, living forever, was attained through faith in Him. (John 3:16, John 6:47, John 6:50,51) I obey these teachings in these verses. Unless you are going to suggest that Jesus contradicted Himself, then I suggest we accept these verses as His way to salvation.

Why does Jesus commands us to be faithful to Him until the end? Why is He contradicting Himself by commanding to be faithful to Him until the end?

 

[williemac]

Why does Jesus commands us to be faithful to Him until the end? Why is He contradicting Himself by commanding to be faithful to Him until the end?

If you care to share the passage that you are referring to, then maybe I can answer this question. In the meantime, Math.24:13, says "But he who endures to the end will be saved". In this passage, Jesus was making a statement of fact, not a command. When people come along and tell us that we need to work for our salvation, be certain that it takes endurance to resist this temptaion to be self righteous. I certainly am enduring.

In Rev.2:10, Jesus exhorts the church of Smyrna to be faithful until the end. However, why put your own version of faithfulness into this passage. You are taking it to mean what ever you think we should be doing in order to be saved. That is merely a self serving interpretation. The context itself is not specific as to what area Jesus is referring to in faithfulness.

To be faithful to the gospel is to continue to believe. Why would you think it means something else?

The point is that there is no contradiction if we understand what area we are to be faithful in. namely...FAITH. This makes itcompatible with the verses I shared. Your version contradicts those passages. You prefer contradiction. I prefer consitency.

 

[meshak]

Enduring means being fauthful to Him, friend.

If you care to share the passage that you are referring to, then maybe I can answer this question. In the meantime, Math.24:13, says "But he who endures to the end will be saved". In this passage, Jesus was making a statement of fact, not a command. When people come along and tell us that we need to work for our salvation, be certain that it takes endurance to resist this temptaion to be self righteous. I certainly am enduring.

 

[Rex]

This is an interesting conversation you two have going on.

Please don't be offended but this is what I see knowing a bit from reading both of your other post, I see meshak as perhaps a new born christian and seeking a deeper relationship but rather unsure about exactly how to go about it.

On the other hand I see williemac as being in Christ for many years but never going beyond the step of faith entering into salvation, denying any kind of work or effort after coming into the anointing of the HS. Teaching this as the parable says, But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money. It;s a nice evangelical message williemac but your testimony IMO lacks the outward manifestation of the inward seed. In fact you teach against those that work the field.

meshak there is no contradiction works and effort will not get you the HS, after having received the Spirit the Spirit will put you to work, manifesting in the flesh the change of heart. Some refer to it as good works. You go on and don't bury your gift in the ground and the Spirit If you persist will make much more known to you. Please take note of the word persist, You will do well not to simply sit and believe, let it show we already have to many lip service christians.


You should really take the Lord advice in Rev 3:18 williemac and make a purchase

 

[Rach1370]

It's important to note the difference between institutional belief and personal belief. An institution that teaches something contrary to the Trinity is not a Christian institution. A person who believes Christ has divinity, but does not believe the Trinity, is not unChristian or barred from salvation.

The truth of the matter is that the Trinity does not enlighten one on anything much more then the belief of modalism or, simply, God has a son. Some Christians won't admit it, but it is true. The only enlightment you get with the Trinity over the other concepts is a metaphysical observation.

The difference with an institution teaching something contrary to the Trinity is that it is, quite simply, teaching a falsehood and cannot be considered a bonafide church of Christ- they are not teaching the correct observation of the God, which is the very cornerstone of their church and purpose.

Before the trinity concept arose, early Christians saw Jesus as the Son of God. There was no consensus on the specifics. In fact, the Trinity concept did not go without dispute until the 4th century creeds, when most Christians were indeed modalists and the Church fathers had to reconcile that error.


All in all, saying one must beleive in the Trinity to be saved is ludicrous. It was a metaphysical theology put forth by a man named Turtulian in the 2nd century, and went without much notice until the 4th century. The notion that you have to believe the Trinity to be saved is completely without merit.

Hey. You raise some very interesting points. It is probably true that when the disciples received the Holy Spirit at pentecost they probably didn't understand about the Trinity....they may have received that information just as they also suddenly seem to 'get' Jesus' work...something they were still largely clueless about before Pentecost! But it is true that they did not need to understand about the nature of God to receive their salvation.

But, having said that, I do think we must define the difference in 'not understanding the Trinity' in order to be saved...and actively denying it. The Trinity may not ever be something we fully understand, but as you say, the teaching of it, is biblically sound and true. So to therefore deny it.....that's quite a bit different to not understanding it, don't you think?

Jesus says to make every effort to get into God's kingdom.

Why do you resist Jesus word, friend?

the harder you work for Him the more power to you from the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit is sent by Jesus to be faithful to Him.

You did not answer my question as to what you do with those verses. You cannot dodge them...

even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—(Ephesians 2:5 ESV)


For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV)


For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 6:23 ESV)


Also...consider this verse, especially in light of the ones above:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”(Romans 1:16-17, ESV)

We live by faith!! Yes we work hard, yes we remain faithful, yes we follow.....but we do it empowered by the Spirit we received WHEN we were saved! We do all this because we are saved, not to get saved. There are so many passages that tell us of the things we can do, because we have first been redeemed. I cannot understand how you can ignore all those wonderful passages!

 

[meshak]

To be faithful to the gospel is to continue to believe. Why would you think it means something else?

If we believe on Jesus, we will not say being faithful to Him is not requirement for salvation. It is becoming dog chasing his own tail talk.

Faithfulness is everything for Jesus' followers.


@Rex, I appreciate your comment

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

This thread is not about me, friend. It is about what Jesus commands.

Sounds like a NO

But that's OK ..... i will modify my question as follows

-- has anyone here on this forum been able to keep all Jesus' commandments ?

-- does anyone here on the forum know ANYBODY who has kept Jesus' commandments. ?

 

[meshak]

Sounds like a NO

But that's OK ..... i will modify my question as follows

-- has anyone here on this forum been able to keep all Jesus' commandments ?

-- does anyone here on the forum know ANYBODY who has kept Jesus' commandments. ?

Why do you think Jesus commands us to be faithful to Him if we cannot do it?

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Why do you think Jesus commands us to be faithful to Him if we cannot do it?

You will have to ask him yourself

 

[meshak]

You will have to ask him yourself

I know why He commands it because He knows we can do it if we are true to Him.

 

[Rach1370]

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. (Galatians 1:6-10, ESV)

5 to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. (Galatians 2:5 ESV)


15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. (Galatians 2:15-21, ESV)


2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— (Galatians 3:1-5, ESV)

10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:10-14, ESV)


Are you even reading these passages??
You are going to have to stop ignoring and dodging some of these scriptures. If you continue to, no one will take your argument seriously.
Truly....how do you deal with these passages??

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I know why He commands it because He knows we can do it if we are true to Him.

please define "being true to Him"

thanks

I am not trying to be a smartass , but I constantly hear these catch phrases that are rarely defined by the writer .

 

[daq]

Hi meshak,
It seems perhaps true that you may have thrown in the Trinity subject when in reality it has not much to do with the wars between the "Law" crowd and the "Grace only" crowd. However, if you would like some help with these things just ask, (since it is clear you have already been ganged up on by the "Grace only" crowd). Don't worry, there are plenty of believers who believe just as you do because they believe every word of Messiah and do not dare attempt to put him and his doctrine into a separate "dispensation" as some here have already stated that they believe. The same who do such things in the chambers of their imagery succeed only in cutting themselves off from the Master. You left out one supremely important statement from one of your Scripture quotes that I would like to add:

John 14:21-23 KJV
21. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Hi daq,

thank you for your kind reply. those verses are already in the OP.

I have this thread because trinity believers dont seem to honor Jesus' teachings or commands. If we appreciate "grace", we will not say obeying Jesus' teachings are not requirement for salvation.

Not so, and by your statements you reveal a different motive than what I had hoped, (not so much "bad" but just not what I had hoped). The OP contains John 14:21 but neglects to include John 14:22-23 which I therefore added in my quote. If you truly seek to be a disciple of the Word then you must necessarily pay closer attention to everything that is said, spoken, and especially what is written in the Scripture. THE MOST important goal of any disciple of Yeshua is that one day, (the great day) both the Father and the Son shall come to him and make their ABODE with him.

 

[Selene]

I believe all the apostles knew the Trinity and had it in their heart, it was just wasn't explicitly realized to them, or at the very least, to some of them. For example, If you look at the epistle of John, it is seen clearly that he attempts to explain the Godhead in a way a gentile could understand:

In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with (or pertained to) the Mighty One, and the Mighty One was the Logos.

In all reality, you could go either way with that explanation. It really requires a thorough exegesis of scripture to realize that the Godhead is trinitarian rather then a changing mode, which is pretty much what modalism is. That's why even at the beginnings of Christianity, there was a bit of confusion up until it was deduced in finality and indoctrined.

In reality, the Catholic Church can only go one way because of the Apostolic Tradition that was handed to her by the Apostles. In other words, when the Church reads John 1:1, she already knows what St. John was saying......that Jesus Christ is God. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia: "The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (To Autolycus II.15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (On Pudicity 21). In the next century the word is in general use.

In the first century, the Church was too busy trying to survive, but they knew what the martyrs were dying for that by the second century when Modalism came, they recognized it to be heresy.

 

[meshak]

Not so, and by your statements you reveal a different motive than what I had hoped, (not so much "bad" but just not what I had hoped). The OP contains John 14:21 but neglects to include John 14:22-23 which I therefore added in my quote. If you truly seek to be a disciple of the Word then you must necessarily pay closer attention to everything that is said, spoken, and especially what is written in the Scripture. THE MOST important goal of any disciple of Yeshua is that one day, (the great day) both the Father and the Son shall come to him and make their ABODE with him.

What makes you think I am disregarding Jesus' complete message?

blesseings.

please define "being true to Him"

thanks

I am not trying to be a smartass , but I constantly hear these catch phrases that are rarely defined by the writer .

Serving Jesus without any compromise or any excuses.

blessings.

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. (Galatians 1:6-10, ESV)

5 to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. (Galatians 2:5 ESV)


15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. (Galatians 2:15-21, ESV)


2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— (Galatians 3:1-5, ESV)

10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:10-14, ESV)


Are you even reading these passages??
You are going to have to stop ignoring and dodging some of these scriptures. If you continue to, no one will take your argument seriously.
Truly....how do you deal with these passages??

Yes. I have read all Paul's teachings over and over.

I deal with all verses if they harmonize with Jesus' whole message of love and "we know them by their fruit."

 

[williemac]

If we believe on Jesus, we will not say being faithful to Him is not requirement for salvation. It is becoming dog chasing his own tail talk.

Faithfulness is everything for Jesus' followers.


@Rex, I appreciate your comment

Your opinion does not overrule the bible, my friend.

This is an interesting conversation you two have going on.

Please don't be offended but this is what I see knowing a bit from reading both of your other post, I see meshak as perhaps a new born christian and seeking a deeper relationship but rather unsure about exactly how to go about it.

On the other hand I see williemac as being in Christ for many years but never going beyond the step of faith entering into salvation, denying any kind of work or effort after coming into the anointing of the HS. Teaching this as the parable says, But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money. It;s a nice evangelical message williemac but your testimony IMO lacks the outward manifestation of the inward seed. In fact you teach against those that work the field.

meshak there is no contradiction works and effort will not get you the HS, after having received the Spirit the Spirit will put you to work, manifesting in the flesh the change of heart. Some refer to it as good works. You go on and don't bury your gift in the ground and the Spirit If you persist will make much more known to you. Please take note of the word persist, You will do well not to simply sit and believe, let it show we already have to many lip service christians.


You should really take the Lord advice in Rev 3:18 williemac and make a purchase

It is hard not to take offence at your comment, brother. You are making some slanderours assumptions about me based on a single conversation. You have no idea what works I do or invovled with, as I have no interst in boasting....which is precisely my point on this and other threads. Our salvation is the work of God in us and not of ourselves, so that no man should boast.

Had you taken the time to read other posts of mine, you would have seen that I agree that our lives are to reflect His work in us. I have never said otherwise. My contention is when one comes and uses self-salvation as the motive for this. This amounts to self righteousness and self justification. That is what Paul rebuked the Galatians for in his letter to them. I suggest you stop reading between the lines and actually check out the verses of scripture I use. As well, Meshek should do the same.

Concerning the parable of the sower, one should note tht the master told the unfaithful servant that he should have put the money in the bank so that it could collect inerest. The indication is that this would have been sufficient. The point of the parable is that the burying of the talent represents the resistance and opposition to the bearing of fuit, to the end that no fruit whatsoever is happening.

I would not oppose the exhortaion to better works, but am not impressed at accusing a complete stranger that he is oppsed to bearing fruit and is not bearing any at all. That insult, to me, is not any kind of godly fruit in itself.

So what about John 5:24? According to that verse, becuse of faith in Him, we will not be judged, but have passed from death to life. Why then do people think they have some special right to judge (condemn) others, when God Himself has promised He would not?

 

[meshak]

Your opinion does not overrule the bible, my friend.

I dont have my opinion, I go by Jesus word. How am I following my own way?

 

[williemac]

I dont have my opinion, I go by Jesus word. How am I following my own way?

Your opinion: " Faithfulness is everything for Jesus' followers. " Why do you say you don't have an opinion? Your comment tells us what you feel faithfulness is: everything. How can you prove this is what Jesus meant? You cannot. There is no text which you can draw from to formulate such a conclusion. The word actually means "loyal". In your world, it means "perfect in obdedience". You have misdefined the word and are boasting in your own works.

Those who insist that one's works contribute to their salvation, automatically insinuate that their own works are sufficient for salvation. That is what boasting looks and sounds like. You would not come here with requirements for others that you don't feel you are fulfilling yourself, now would you? So then, by default you boast in your success while condemning others who aren't measuring up to the standards that you feel you measure up to. Is that part of this "faithfulness"? Go and boast to God and see where it gets you. But before you do, you might want to read Luke18:10-14. BTW, these are the words of Jesus. Do you really go by them?