Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Naw, that right has been reserved for you.
Good night
And I depart this conversation with one more deflection..... GO Chiefs!!!
Keeping the Sabbath tells people Who you Worship
- Thread starter Hobie
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Good night
And I depart this conversation with one more deflection..... GO Chiefs!!!
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
OK, this one is gonna shock you:
John 9:22 relates that the parents of the blind man whose sight Jesus had restored “were afraid of the Jews; for the Jews had already agreed that anyone who confessed Jesus to be the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue.” (A similar reference occurs later, in John 12:42, right after Jesus’ final entry into Jerusalem.) Was Jesus’ following really so large at the time this blind man got his sight that the Jewish authorities would have passed such a decree? John’s gospel goes on to suggest that the real impetus for defections to the Jesus camp was the raising of Lazarus, for according to John 12:11 “it was on account of him that many of the Jews were deserting and were believing in Jesus.” But even assuming that John’s gospel is not chronological and that Lazarus’ resurrection preceded the healing of the blind man, is it likely that the chief priests would have already adopted an expulsion edict as a counter measure to widespread acceptance of Jesus as the Christ?
I don’t think so. It seems far more probable to me that such an edict came much later – perhaps more than half a century later, when John wrote his gospel for a community of believers who had experienced precisely such an expulsion, as Jesus reportedly predicted would happen in John 16:2. (James Louis Martyn’s book History and Theology in the Fourth Gospel makes a rather convincing case for this.)
Those who insist that everything written in the gospels is historically accurate in every respect, down to the last detail, will disagree with this. “Of course the Jewish authorities had promulgated such an edict before the blind man got his sight; John’s gospel says so! End of story!” Not for me. I ask myself (and them) how our faith would be diminished if we granted the anachronism, i.e., if John took a later edict and placed it in his story as encouragement for his readership contemporaneously facing such a decree. And I answer, “Not at all.”
To my thinking, John’s gospel was never intended to be a historical record. Its author’s purpose in writing was not to chronicle but to persuade. He says so himself in 20:31 (“But these are written so that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name.”). It is this element of the gospel – “if you believe, you may have life in his name” – which mattered to the author and which should matter to us. It is unnecessary to hold to the literal truth of each and every one of the events recounted; the message of the gospel must be believed, and that message conveys theological truth, not necessarily literal truth. (The Lazarus story itself may well fall into this category, given that this supposedly notorious miracle is never mentioned in any of the earlier-written synoptic gospels.)
OK, take you shots at me as a heretic . . .
John 9:22 relates that the parents of the blind man whose sight Jesus had restored “were afraid of the Jews; for the Jews had already agreed that anyone who confessed Jesus to be the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue.” (A similar reference occurs later, in John 12:42, right after Jesus’ final entry into Jerusalem.) Was Jesus’ following really so large at the time this blind man got his sight that the Jewish authorities would have passed such a decree? John’s gospel goes on to suggest that the real impetus for defections to the Jesus camp was the raising of Lazarus, for according to John 12:11 “it was on account of him that many of the Jews were deserting and were believing in Jesus.” But even assuming that John’s gospel is not chronological and that Lazarus’ resurrection preceded the healing of the blind man, is it likely that the chief priests would have already adopted an expulsion edict as a counter measure to widespread acceptance of Jesus as the Christ?
I don’t think so. It seems far more probable to me that such an edict came much later – perhaps more than half a century later, when John wrote his gospel for a community of believers who had experienced precisely such an expulsion, as Jesus reportedly predicted would happen in John 16:2. (James Louis Martyn’s book History and Theology in the Fourth Gospel makes a rather convincing case for this.)
Those who insist that everything written in the gospels is historically accurate in every respect, down to the last detail, will disagree with this. “Of course the Jewish authorities had promulgated such an edict before the blind man got his sight; John’s gospel says so! End of story!” Not for me. I ask myself (and them) how our faith would be diminished if we granted the anachronism, i.e., if John took a later edict and placed it in his story as encouragement for his readership contemporaneously facing such a decree. And I answer, “Not at all.”
To my thinking, John’s gospel was never intended to be a historical record. Its author’s purpose in writing was not to chronicle but to persuade. He says so himself in 20:31 (“But these are written so that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name.”). It is this element of the gospel – “if you believe, you may have life in his name” – which mattered to the author and which should matter to us. It is unnecessary to hold to the literal truth of each and every one of the events recounted; the message of the gospel must be believed, and that message conveys theological truth, not necessarily literal truth. (The Lazarus story itself may well fall into this category, given that this supposedly notorious miracle is never mentioned in any of the earlier-written synoptic gospels.)
OK, take you shots at me as a heretic . . .
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
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I have to admit that your enthusiasm for critical thought is refreshing.
I predict it has gotten you into lots of trouble - lol.
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A little bit. But it's who I am. I test everything for rationality. Children believe in all sorts of irrational things pushed on them by authority figures. They don't or can’t question in the same way adults do. Maybe Matt. 18:3 is an insidious verse inserted by the author to cut off the type of intellectual struggling with the Scriptures that I engage in. Or maybe it really is the Word of the Boss explaining how we must ascend that mountain, blind hand-hold to blind hand-hold. Perhaps we just have to let go of the “safe” knobs of reason if we are to get any higher..
I have to admit that your enthusiasm for critical thought is refreshing.
I predict it has gotten you into lots of trouble - lol.
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At times I have a fondness for that view. It would be a relief to drop all these heavy ropes and pitons I brought for the ascent. But when I look down and see the abyss, I get self-reliant again, and just shift my tools to the other shoulder. Having found them useful at various levels, I suspect I’ll never let them go entirely.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
You might enjoy this topic if you haven't seen it yet.
Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Question: Does the Sabbath point to creation, or does creation point to the Sabbath?For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
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(the word Sabbath does not appear until Exodus chapter 16)
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BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Ezra 5:11
And thus they returned us answer, saying, We are the servants of the God of heaven and earth, and build the house that was builded these many years ago, which a great king of Israel builded and set up.
Psalm 69:34
Let the heaven and earth praise him, the seas, and every thing that moveth therein.
Psalm 124:8
Our help is in the name of the Lord, who made heaven and earth.
Isaiah 37:16
O Lord of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.
Jeremiah 32:17
Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Acts 4:24
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
Acts 14:15
And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:
Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Revelation 10:6
And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
So we see Who we worship...
Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Exodus 20:8
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
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This is one of the best posts I've ever read.
In my mind, at least, I don't rate posts so much on to what extent I agree with them as how honest they seem to be.
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
"By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:35
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
You appear to be defrocked.Don't make meyou, SS.
Are you a free man now?
I could threaten you with IGNORE. - LOL
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
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Hey, don't let that get out, now.
Yeah, you could be "that guy" - lol.
While I'm being "this guy."
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Who we worship? Tied into creation?
The things created?
"Nature worship also called naturism or physiolatry is any of a variety of religious, spiritual and devotional practices that focus on the worship of the nature spirits considered to be behind the natural phenomena visible throughout nature...." - Wiki
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Yup - LOL.
Hey, don't let that get out, now.
Yeah, you could be "that guy" - lol.
While I'm being "this guy."
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You used to be "the guy".
While I was "that guy".
Now you're "this guy".
I'm still "that guy".
At least one of us is making progress.
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Exodus 20:2 - I am the Lord your God, who brought YOU out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Who is YOU? The children of Israel.
Exodus 31:16 - Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.
Deuteronomy 5:12 - Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded YOU. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 And remember that YOU were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought YOU out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore, the Lord your God commanded YOU to keep the Sabbath day.
Sabbath keeping with all its rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3,32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the new covenant. (Colossians 2:16-17)
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
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Trust me when I say:
I was never "the guy."
You're definitely thinking of somebody else.
Just ask my wife.
Or my kids.
Because I know where I stand.
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