Lake of fire

[Patrick1966]

If we are not found IN CHRIST we shall not be saved!

That's true, but from what are we saved? We are saved from the Lake of Fire but EVERYBODY is saved from eternal death.

 

[Behold]

@rwb.

Why couldnt people die to themselves in the after life?

Its because of this..

"conformed into the Image of Christ"..

See that..... That is what every born again person is "pre-destined" to become.

Paul says that we will "all be changed" and that is that "conforming into the Image of Christ"
This literally means that all the born again will be exactly like Him.

So, the answer to your question is....>Does Jesus need to die to Himself? And as the born again will be conformed to be just like him.......then neither will they.

 

[MatthewG]

if Jesus baptised with holy spirit and fire, snd the fire burns out and away the old person, why cant the lake of fire be the same thing?



You just entirely skip and miss the part where people are outside of the Kingdom, again, its not like they are going to perish if God so wills them to live…

 

[rwb]

@rwb.

As a christian you are suppose to die while you are living to yourself - and sin and become alive unto God


If you die to yourself in this life to live for God,



Why couldnt people die to themselves in the after life?



I leave open the room for the possibility of God getting his will.


“Which is to have no perish”


But many people dont care about that will





Just wanna die or see jesus be with them, and fook everyone else thet deserve hellfire and burning alive (psudeo theolo”) in my opinion.

People physically dead cannot die to themselves in this age or the lake of fire.

 

[MatthewG]

I guess if you don’t believe the soul goes on.

From the Bible, I read everyone’s gonna get a resurrected, spiritual body, so I don’t know, they’re gonna have to have some kind of mind, will, emotion. In my opinion.

 

[MatthewG]

I imagine a guy who could be paralyzed from the neck down never took move again, but inside can still talk even though he cant talk, could have a lot of hatred toward God, the care taker comes by speaks about God, that man in his situation could die to himself, and live more to God, all while being a paralized man.

Dying to the anger, hatred, greed,

 

[MatthewG]

Pushed up

Op

Lake of fire

The lake of fire is commonly known as hell, which is a wrong conception altogether. See hell, the place that held disembodied souls is dumped out. Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I always wondered what Jesus meant by "born from above". I noticed that when we had a recent thread about it, it turned into such a goat rodeo the mods had to shut it down.

Just sharing my thoughts on what “born from above” means to me. I’ve always thought of it as a place like born down from out of the sky. But now to me it means to come down from above, out from the high seat and to take the lower seat. To me this makes sense in you must come down before lifted up in Christ. New birth? “Born from above” consider humbleness and lowly of heart and how Christ although He possessed everything became poor that we may be rich. His “I am from above” and Him who came down from above born of God so that others may be lifted up in Him. The only way to be lifted up. His lowering himself even unto the death of the cross. Consider that which is high (above God)will be brought down. And that which is brought down (below God)will be raised up in Christ. if you consider the heart of say Paul for example “born from above” in the Fruits of God “Grace given to the lowly” for “God resist the proud” Saul …Grace was given to Paul after his birth of coming down from above. To be made low as Paul said I’ve learned how to be both abased and to abound, to be both hungry and have need and to be full. So now I think “born from above” is the condition of the heart and mind which doesn’t fall out of the sky but bears the fruit of Christ “taking off the old man” and “putting on the new man” which is “born” of a humble spirit and with the lowly of heart.

 

[MatthewG]

bump

 

[CC7799]

You said:

So what do you mean no one is lost forever Pat? I assumed you meant that everyone is going to be found, which Biblically means saved or receive salvation, correct?

Jesus himself pointed out that the vast majority of mankind will choose the road to destruction. Mat 7:13 Knowing you I believe you believe that as well, so you can see why I am at a loss to understand why you would ask that Pat.

You're right. Reprobates. Peace.

 

[Jack]

The lake of fire is commonly known as hell, which is a wrong conception altogether.

See hell, the place that held disembodied souls is dumped out.


The sea, could revert to Gentile nations and the dead that were in it, where judged,

Along with death, and (Hell/Hades) gave up the dead that were in them, with this judgment that had come upon the nation of Israel for having rejected the messiah, also Satan, the False prophet, and the beast.


Once this is done and the age is complete; John writes


Now wait a minute remember Revelation 20 is done with and now a new picture arrives on the scene,

Revelation 21:1


John writes of what he sees - a new heaven and a new earth - for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and there was no longer any sea.

This sea is a reference possibly to the 'brazen sea' which was in the temple, which the Jewish people had looked to with their given land by God, - Their heaven and earth. With no more sea, it would suggest the temple was destroyed.

Today people are the temple which God dwells in via the spirit.

in revelation 21:8 it says



Therefore those who did not have faith, they were placed into the lake of fire which they have a part of, it doesn’t say they are in this fire forever, unless you can make it say this.

May would suggest from the scripture found in Revelation 20:15 those who were cast into the lake of fire are done for.

But John makes it clear in saying;



So to those who say God won’t be able to save everyone should really think again,

His Son already saved them from being part of Revelation 20, and that age is done away with.

Revelation 21 - 22 are renewal chapters; and it seems to suggest that God has a way for people unjust and just to have a place to live, for the unjust they will have an outside of the kingdom to stay in if that is what they wanted, and those who were faithful, will go inside of the kingdom.


I don’t understand how all of these things are missed in understanding what is being said and conveyed to some degree by the Apostle who seen Christ raise from the dead, also promising that he was coming back to these seven churches.


These events written to them had to come about already, otherwise all this stuff in the Bible is just a fairy tale hopeless dream, of ever going to be with God at the end of life anyway.

Belief in Hell is not required for residency therein.

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[MatthewG]

Thanks for commenting

 

[face2face]

The Lake of Fire is a symbolic term for the destruction, which is going to come upon the beast and the false prophet.

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.

I won't go into the symbol of the beast and false prophet now, but needless to say the lake of fire is not what many think it is.

It's also significant there is no mention of the "the dragon", which again requires an understanding of the symbols used.

What I can say with 100% confidence is these matters relate to the Kingdoms of Men on earth, and the political powers at that time.

It will take into consideration the March of the Rainbowed angel and its subdueing of the earth.

F2F

 

[MatthewG]

Thanks for commenting, F2f.

 

[Taken]

I always wondered what Jesus meant by "born from above". I noticed that when we had a recent thread about it, it turned into such a goat rodeo the mods had to shut it down.

“Born from above”…is a mans natural spirit (ie natural born of a mans seed, ie natural (of this world’s truth in his heart)

Being MADE born of Gods SEED, which IS Spirit, and Absolute Truth…
Being INWELT, with Gods Spirit of Truth (ie Baptism of the Holy Spirit), feeding / sustaining, that mans New Spirit, Gods Truth.

Ezek.11
[19] And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Ezek.18
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ezek.36
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

John 14:

[17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


God bless you,

Glory to God
Taken

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The lake of fire is commonly known as hell, which is a wrong conception altogether.

Something has been on my mind about the lake of fire. What men meant for harm, God means it for good. Two different perspectives I hear… how the Lake of fire is for harm…but what if God means it for good? Where men call evil good and good evil?

When I look at the Lake of Fire… I see a cleansing fire. The first to go into the cleansing fire are the fearful—I really don’t think it’s the fear of God which is (the beginning of Wisdom, is given over to torment) fear cast out or removed. …but fear in what men can do to the body is given over to the Lake of Fire…the Lake of Fire helpful in the removal of the fear of what men can do to the body. ‘ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. “torment” He that fears is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us. If a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loves God loves his brother also.’ (1 John 4: 17-21)
^very telling to me is what men use for harm, God means it for good. Even in the proverbs there is a verse not to laugh at your brother’s destruction or God will remove His wrath off your brother.

Then everything false and is a lie is tossed into the lake fire. Or cast out into the fire. What I read is a fire comes on the earth…we are told of building up and edifying and how no other foundation can be laid except for Christ. And to be careful what you build …for this fire will cleanse and destroy mens glorying work so that what remains is Christ. ‘If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know you not that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.’
All reference to “the body”

What confuses me is there is said to being two separate fires one which cleanses and one which destroys with Satan over that fire that God cast those false things into. Consider all the verses where God gives them over to a reprobate mind. Even those who blasphemy are given over to satan so that they man learn not to blaspheme God. What men meant for evil, God meant for good?

See hell, the place that held disembodied souls is dumped out.

“disembodied souls” significant is that word “disembodied” (imo) reminds me of those evil spirits cast out and they wander in a dry place seeking ... I still think God purposes will be that once they fail those “disembodied” …”we know we must put off this body” “this corruption” and “put on the incorruptible”, into a body that is bond together in Love.

The sea, could revert to Gentile nations and the dead that were in it, where judged,

Along with death, and (Hell/Hades) gave up the dead that were in them, with this judgment that had come upon the nation of Israel for having rejected the messiah, also Satan, the False prophet, and the beast.


Once this is done and the age is complete; John writes

I’ve always heard the sea is gentiles also. ‘Then you shall see, and flow together, and your heart shall fear, and be enlarged (O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged. 2 Corinthians 6:11); because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto you, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto you.
^can see the point you make in the above about the gentiles “then you shall see” and “flow together” what gets me there is “the abundance of the sea shall be converted” for that blows apart boasting that only a few will make it. To me when Jesus Christ said “few find it” it wasn’t meant as applause for few find it, but instead His speaking in how men not only don’t enter in but try to keep those out trying to enter in. I see “few find it” as a rebuke. We see this even today…nothing boasts more against—hindering “the abundance of the sea shall be converted” then men guarding the entering in to keep out others.

Yet notice “you will see” and “flow together” .. is “the sea” more than the gentiles only but the Jews also? Consider the verses of tossed about on the sea, like a wave driven about…often in relation to every wind of doctrine “contrary to us” …Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase (abundance) of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavers is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind(contrary) and tossed. —That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:


Consider this
But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.
(He came to remove—that which was contrary to us). That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

 

[VictoryinJesus]

See Peter step out in the sea, onto the water. See Peters heart failing him out of fear of those things coming upon the earth—as Christ told Peter his heart would fail him “we will deny me three times) …but when Peter stepped out into the sea and his heart is failing Peter…He sees Jesus walking on the sea towards Peter whose heart is failing him. As Jesus also told Peter satan had asked to have him to sift as wheat, but “I pray your faith fails not, when you are converted strengthen your brothers.” Keep in mind Peter sinking out of fear…seeing Jesus Christ coming upon the sea walking towards Peter and lifts Peter up…

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
^He is coming to save those hearts failing them out of distress and perplexity, out of darkness where the “waves roar” the wind of every doctrine contrary…coming in a cloud (of witnesses) with power and great glory.

Now wait a minute remember Revelation 20 is done with and now a new picture arrives on the scene,

Revelation 21:1

A new picture arrives …good news!

John writes of what he sees - a new heaven and a new earth - for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and there was no longer any sea.

Good news (Imo) is there was no longer any sea…where He removed very wind of doctrine contrary to us…taking it out of the way..that which was contrary to us). That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

no more distress, no more being driven about, tossed to and fro by that contrary…no more perplexity, having passed out from darkness into Light…having passed out of death unto Life (Christ). ‘John writes of what he sees - a new heaven and a new earth - for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away…there was no more sea.’ If any man be in Christ he is a New Creature…old things have passed away.

which was in the temple, which the Jewish people had looked to with their given land by God, - Their heaven and earth. With no more sea, it would suggest the temple was destroyed.

Can see how you connect the temple…for those things above cleanse the Temple which is His body.

Today people are the temple which God dwells in via the spirit.

in revelation 21:8 it says

Can see the connection.

His Son already saved them from being part of Revelation 20, and that age is done away with.

Revelation 21 - 22 are renewal chapters; and it seems to suggest that God has a way for people unjust and just to have a place to live, for the unjust they will have an outside of the kingdom to stay in if that is what they wanted, and those who were faithful, will go inside of the kingdom.

Outside (Imo) is that which perishes and passes away …not an evil thing (Imo) but so that He may increase. John said “I must decrease. That He be increased.” What really struck me once was all that which was chaff and burned up the wind carried away so no place was found for them. Yet He went to prepare a John writes of what he sees - a new heaven and a new earth - for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away for that which no place was given.

 

[Jack]

How is it that you think spending eternity in the Lake of Fire with the Devil funny?

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[MatthewG]

VictoryinJesus, thank you for commenting.