Lazarus and the Rich Man correspondence = hades not eternal

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Nancy

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You may be a player but I assure you I DO NOT PLAY concerning the things of God. The Bible must be taken seriously and obeyed, for it is life and death.




What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

The word “trinity” is not found in Holy Writ nor the words “omniscient” and “omnipresent” yet the serious Bible student cannot deny that God is “all powerful” and “everywhere present.”

I don’t want to derail this thread, but if we are going to discuss the Deity of Christ then we ought to go to the Bible knowing nothing and let the Scriptures guide us what does the Bible have to say.

Scriptures tell us there is only One God (Deut 6:4) but it also insists there are three separate and distinct persons that subsist in the Godhead: Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

When Paul gave his blessing to the church of Corinth in 2 Cor 13:14, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, he said: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. Amen.”

Since the Bible definitely shows that the Son is God, and it also indicates that the Father is God, and teaches that the Holy Spirit is God, this verse definitely shows there are three persons subsisting in the Godhead.

In Isaiah 6, Isaiah said in verse 5: “mine eyes have seen the King, JEHOVAH of hosts.” Although Isaiah has seen Jehovah seated upon the throne high and lifted up, the apostle John affirmed in John 12:41 that Isaiah actually beheld Christ. And then Paul declares that the message was given to Isaiah on this occasion after the vision, Isaiah 6:9 were really spoken by the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah said it was the Father. John said it was the Son. Paul said it was the Holy Spirit. Who IS this ONE JEHOVAH? Well, He is God the Father, God The Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

The above is just a starter. There are many more!

To God Be The Glory
Along with all the scripture you gave above, Jesus baptism pretty much cemented that truth for me :)
 
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Enoch111

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I believe the Rich man and Lazuras is a illustration or parable.
To *illustrate* what?
  • That there is consciousness after death, and there is also conscious torment in Hades?
  • That before the resurrection of Christ both the righteous and the unrighteous dead were in Sheol/Hades?
  • That they were separated by a huge gulf or chasm which could not be crossed?
  • That they could see each other and communicate with each other as living souls and spirits, even while their bodies were in their graves?
Do you see the illogic of attempting to make this a parable?
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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To *illustrate* what?
  • That there is consciousness after death, and there is also conscious torment in Hades?
  • That before the resurrection of Christ both the righteous and the unrighteous dead were in Sheol/Hades?
  • That they were separated by a huge gulf or chasm which could not be crossed?
  • That they could see each other and communicate with each other as living souls and spirits, even while their bodies were in their graves?
Do you see the illogic of attempting to make this a parable?

It has nothing whatsoever to do with any of the above list you mentioned. You have to keep this story in context of the surrounding scriptures it's written in. It's actually about the Pharisees and the common Jews and how there was a change in circumstance in these two classes of people.
 
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Willie T

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It has nothing whatsoever to do with any of the above list you mentioned. You have to keep this story in context of the surrounding scriptures it's written in. It's actually about the Pharisees and the common Jews and how there was a change in circumstance in these two classes of people.
It is so rare to find someone who seems to actually understand this parable.
 
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Triumph1300

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I believe this is about real people.
Because He named them by name.

But you people who are thinking it's a parable or illustration......you better pay attention to what Jesus was saying.

Because there's a real scenery being described by Him in what you call a "parable".
 
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Willie T

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I don't know about being rare, since I was taught this myself which means many other people understand this parable
It really doesn't seem like it from reading the other posts here. Most seem to think Jesus told that parable just so people could describe some place they call "Hell."
 
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Nancy

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I don't know about being rare, since I was taught this myself which means many other people understand this parable
"
Ok, let's take a closer look at Luke 16:19-31. Mr. Martin quotes Matthew 13:34 in defense of his position that Luke 16 is merely a parable....

“All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them

Dr. Ernest L. Martin (1932-2002) attempts to use this verse, to claim that all of the stories Jesus told were parables; BUT, this is clearly not the case at all, which is evidenced by hundreds of other Scriptures. One such passage of Scripture is Luke 17:26-27, which states, “And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.”

Now, it is clear that this passage of Scripture is NOT a parable because LITERAL names are used. The same is true concerning Luke 16:19-31, which employs the use of the LITERAL names of Abraham, Lazarus, and Moses. There is NO reason for us to believe that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, none at all. Jesus NEVER said it was a parable!

Furthermore, Jesus ALWAYS announced when He was speaking in parables, e.g., ...

Matthew 13:24 - “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likenedunto a man which sowed good seed in his field.”

Matthew 13:31 - “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field.”

You won't find any mention of a “parable” in Luke 16, or of the word “like.” There is a clear distinction between the parables Jesus told and the literal accounts. When Jesus warned the Pharisees that there would be “wailing” and “gnashing of teeth” in Hellfire, He was speaking in LITERAL terms... “And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:50).

To claim that Jesus' words are not literal is to attack His character and holiness. Jesus was not an actor or fiction writer. He came as the Son of God to seek and to save that which was lost (i.e., humanity). In John 14:2 Jesus plainly stated, “In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you...” Jesus was an honest man, Who said what He meant and meant what He said.

Please read, Hell in the Scriptures.


Dr. Ernest L. Martin is a False Prophet!

Ernest L. Martin has been greatly deceived, and is leading people into Hellfire with his damnable doctrines. It is tragic when people, who know nothing about the truth of God's Word, twist the Scriptures, “...which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction” (2nd Peter 3:16b). The only accurate method to interpret the Scriptures is with other Scriptures, by comparing truth with truth.

The Word of God couldn't be any clearer that people who die in their sins will be punished forever in the tormentuous flames of Hellfire... “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction...” (2nd Thessalonians 1:8,9). Could the Bible be any plainer? Yet, fools like Mr. Martin go around telling people that Hell has no fire. Read the Bible!


Luke 16:19-31 is a LITERAL Account!

Jesus NEVER mentioned LITERAL names or places when speaking in parables—it was always “a certain man” or “a far country.” In sharp contrast, we have definitive, distinctive, recognizable people mentioned in Luke 16:19-31; namely, Abraham, Lazarus, Moses, the prophets and the dead.

Thus, it would be foolish and certainly unscholarly not to accept this account as 100% true. To allege that Luke 16:19-31 is not a true story is to accuse the Lord of lying, because He is using LITERAL names, and thus attributing meaning and character references to those people. How foolish it is to deny the literalness of the Scriptures. Scientifically, historically, astronomically, archeologically, horticulturally, medically, and in so many other ways--the Word of God is 100% accurate and literal.

Only a willingly blind fool would dismiss the Bible as being superstitious, or misleading. Only an unsaved Modernist would deny the literalness of the Scriptures and yet claim to be a “Christian!”
 

Helen

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Good post @Nancy

I agree for the most part....Except for the :-
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them
;)

I do not "go there". :)
"Our God IS a Consuming Fire." ( just as our God IS Love)

In my book, vengeance upon sin was poured our on the Son at the Cross.

John 12:31

31 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me.
33 This He said, signifying what death He should die. "


Just my two cents.
 
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Nancy

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Good post @Nancy

I agree for the most part....Except for the :-
;)

I do not "go there". :)
"Our God IS a Consuming Fire." ( just as our God IS Love)

In my book, vengeance upon sin was poured our on the Son at the Cross. John 12:31

31 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me.
33 This He said, signifying what death He should die. "

Just my two cents.

"In my book, vengeance upon sin was poured our on the Son at the Cross.
I think we are reading allot of the same books :)

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them: The jury (for me) is still out on this biggie!
"32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me. <--- For sure!!! But, not all will heed this drawing, or call :(

"Just my two cents." <---- How about a C-note---inflation!! lol ♥




 
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Helen

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Haha!! I have to agree..two cents is a 'animal' of the past. !! :D
@Nancy
 
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TheHolyBookEnds

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I am going to be addressing the passage of Luke 16:19-31 (and context) of the parable of 'Lazarus and the rich man' in this thread here - https://www.christianityboard.com/t...y-die-devil-genesis-3-4-not-surely-die.26178/

By God's grace, I will thoroughly demonstrate there that:

[1] the passage is a parable by Jesus, contextually
[2] the excuse that 'literal' names cannot be used in a parable is a made up 'ad hoc', not found in scripture
[3] 'literal names' are indeed used in some parables
[4] the elements in the passage are symbolic and representative of greater things
[5] is not about a living conversation between Abraham, Lazarus and rich man in after-death experience
[6] is not an evidence for 'immortal soul/spirit' theology, but quite the contrary
[7] teaches something entirely different than how most people 'exegete' ['exit-jesus'] the text.​
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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I believe this is about real people.
Because He named them by name.

But you people who are thinking it's a parable or illustration......you better pay attention to what Jesus was saying.

Because there's a real scenery being described by Him in what you call a "parable".

The Rich man ia personal name really
It really doesn't seem like it from reading the other posts here. Most seem to think Jesus told that parable just so people could describe some place they call "Hell."

I'm not saying they are on any of the posts.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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"
Ok, let's take a closer look at Luke 16:19-31. Mr. Martin quotes Matthew 13:34 in defense of his position that Luke 16 is merely a parable....



“All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them

Dr. Ernest L. Martin (1932-2002) attempts to use this verse, to claim that all of the stories Jesus told were parables; BUT, this is clearly not the case at all, which is evidenced by hundreds of other Scriptures. One such passage of Scripture is Luke 17:26-27, which states, “And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.”

Now, it is clear that this passage of Scripture is NOT a parable because LITERAL names are used. The same is true concerning Luke 16:19-31, which employs the use of the LITERAL names of Abraham, Lazarus, and Moses. There is NO reason for us to believe that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, none at all. Jesus NEVER said it was a parable!

Furthermore, Jesus ALWAYS announced when He was speaking in parables, e.g., ...

Matthew 13:24 - “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likenedunto a man which sowed good seed in his field.”

Matthew 13:31 - “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field.”

You won't find any mention of a “parable” in Luke 16, or of the word “like.” There is a clear distinction between the parables Jesus told and the literal accounts. When Jesus warned the Pharisees that there would be “wailing” and “gnashing of teeth” in Hellfire, He was speaking in LITERAL terms... “And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:50).

To claim that Jesus' words are not literal is to attack His character and holiness. Jesus was not an actor or fiction writer. He came as the Son of God to seek and to save that which was lost (i.e., humanity). In John 14:2 Jesus plainly stated, “In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you...” Jesus was an honest man, Who said what He meant and meant what He said.

Please read, Hell in the Scriptures.


Dr. Ernest L. Martin is a False Prophet!

Ernest L. Martin has been greatly deceived, and is leading people into Hellfire with his damnable doctrines. It is tragic when people, who know nothing about the truth of God's Word, twist the Scriptures, “...which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction” (2nd Peter 3:16b). The only accurate method to interpret the Scriptures is with other Scriptures, by comparing truth with truth.

The Word of God couldn't be any clearer that people who die in their sins will be punished forever in the tormentuous flames of Hellfire... “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction...” (2nd Thessalonians 1:8,9). Could the Bible be any plainer? Yet, fools like Mr. Martin go around telling people that Hell has no fire. Read the Bible!


Luke 16:19-31 is a LITERAL Account!

Jesus NEVER mentioned LITERAL names or places when speaking in parables—it was always “a certain man” or “a far country.” In sharp contrast, we have definitive, distinctive, recognizable people mentioned in Luke 16:19-31; namely, Abraham, Lazarus, Moses, the prophets and the dead.

Thus, it would be foolish and certainly unscholarly not to accept this account as 100% true. To allege that Luke 16:19-31 is not a true story is to accuse the Lord of lying, because He is using LITERAL names, and thus attributing meaning and character references to those people. How foolish it is to deny the literalness of the Scriptures. Scientifically, historically, astronomically, archeologically, horticulturally, medically, and in so many other ways--the Word of God is 100% accurate and literal.

Only a willingly blind fool would dismiss the Bible as being superstitious, or misleading. Only an unsaved Modernist would deny the literalness


I just don't believe God is a person who tortures people as you interpret the scriptures to describe the type of person God is. All scriptures that I have read concerning God doesn't teach me he is that type person. I think it's sad that those people like you who say you're christian think God is that type person by the way you interpret the scriptures. I know God is not that person that you and others try to make him out to be, but I understand that is who you will always teach him to be to others. The truth is God doesn't torture people, if he sees there's no hope for a person or persons he will destroy them out of existence for eternity, not torture them for eternity. Oh yeah don't give me any that rubbish that God can't destroy out of existence that he brought into existence.
 
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TheHolyBookEnds

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I am going to be addressing the passage of Luke 16:19-31 (and context) of the parable of 'Lazarus and the rich man' in this thread here - https://www.christianityboard.com/t...y-die-devil-genesis-3-4-not-surely-die.26178/

By God's grace, I will thoroughly demonstrate there that:

[1] the passage is a parable by Jesus, contextually
[2] the excuse that 'literal' names cannot be used in a parable is a made up 'ad hoc', not found in scripture
[3] 'literal names' are indeed used in some parables
[4] the elements in the passage are symbolic and representative of greater things
[5] is not about a living conversation between Abraham, Lazarus and rich man in after-death experience
[6] is not an evidence for 'immortal soul/spirit' theology, but quite the contrary
[7] teaches something entirely different than how most people 'exegete' ['exit-jesus'] the text.​
This has now begun. - https://www.christianityboard.com/t...s-3-4-not-surely-die.26178/page-3#post-428604
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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I believe this is about real people.
Because He named them by name.

But you people who are thinking it's a parable or illustration......you better pay attention to what Jesus was saying.

Because there's a real scenery being described by Him in what you call a "parable".

if both individuals in the story had personal names I could understand your point but the rich man is just called the rich man, he's not given a personal name like Lazarus.
 

AlfredPersson

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Some of you like "Fill-In-The Blank" exercises...… (The long link directly below is one.)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwiXn5Sd1O7bAhUFUKwKHd_EDhwQFggwMAE&url=https://secretsunsealed.org/content/Parables%20of%20Christ/04-ParablesTheRichManAndLazarus.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1T8KG6VdSRI1zm_zxeMgM9

This is also interesting: PARABLE OF THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS.

("The great difficulty with many in reading this scripture is that, though they regard it as a parable, they reason on it and draw conclusions from it as though it were a literal statement. To regard it as a literal statement involves several absurdities; for instance, that the rich man went to "hell" because he had enjoyed many earthly blessings and gave nothing but crumbs to Lazarus. Not a word is said about his wickedness. Again, Lazarus was blessed, not because he was a sincere child of God, full of faith and trust, not because he was good, but simply because he was poor and sick. If this be interpreted literally, the only logical lesson to be drawn from it is, that unless we are poor beggars full of sores, we will never enter into future bliss; and that if now we wear any fine linen and purple, and have plenty to eat every day, (as do most Americans) we are sure of future torment. Again, the coveted place of favor is "Abraham's bosom"; and if the whole statement be literal, the bosom must also be literal, and it surely would not hold very many of earth's millions of sick and poor.
But why consider absurdities?...………. )
Couldn't you claim that for every other parable? Which one can't be reduced to absurdity? Therefore, your argument is unsound. It clearly was spoken to teach money lovers a lesson they needed to hear, "you cannot serve God and mammon."
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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