LEFT BEHIND ... what to do?

[marks]

There are several erroneous assumptions made by those who trust in some future rapture as an escape pod from having to endure persecution and troubles.

There is a huge difference in holding to a Biblical doctrine, and clinging to some hope of escape.

I would ask you, myself being a pre-tribber, to you actually think that I think I won't/don't have to endure persecution and troubles? With all kindness and respect, what ever would give you that idea about me??

Much love!

 

[marks]

Didn't really intend for this, but this thread actually dismantled Post-Tribs (and for certain the Amillennials who are totally out of touch); since their views cannot explain or identify with Isaiah 11:6-10 and 65:17-25. This is a big problem for them. If Christains are all resurrected and there is no one left behind because everyone else is dead; then in what reality do these people in Isaiah exist, woth babies bei g born and people still dying? They'll probably spirituality it, come up with some erroneous symbolism?

It's the same thing they do with the Sheep/Goats judgment. They cannot accept it as written because it shows all but pre-trib to be false.

Much love!

 

[marks]

They are blind, but maybe they heard about it from us in the past. Nevertheless, they want to eat, buy, sell and survive, so they take it not realizing or believing the consequences of God's judgment until afterward.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 KJV
9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Much love!

 

[Marty fox]

Nope.
It is a mark that other wicked heathens can see and allow commerce.
No mark, no buying or selling allowed.

It is obvious, it is a literal mark.

Then that is a total contradiction of John 3:16 and other verses that promise salvation to anyone that repents.

Many satanist have repented and been saved.

Think about it, Paul was persecuting and ordering the execution of the church and God saved him after he repented, and you think that this very same God would reject anyone who repents of taking a physical mark?

That would put our salvation on what we did not what Jesus did.

 

[Marty fox]

Wise.
Mockers have disenfranchised themselves.

Their domain is adult day care.
Total waste of time.

Yet he's been answering amils all during this thread.

 

[Marty fox]

Postribs Can Not unpack the 10 virgin parable, nor can they understand Jesus analogy of Noah, and Lot.

I am so glad I am not in that trap.

What are you referring too here what's the questions I'm not sure what you mean?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Maybe so, but it is possible that He could not come like a thief if a Great Tribulation woke everyone up. Wouldn't they all suspect, "Ah, the catastrophies of the Bible are right in front of our eyes, happenning just as it is written - gee, this must mean the Lord is returning?"

Scripture doesn't teach that physical catastrophies are the sign that the Lord is about to return. Jesus Himself indicated that wars, earthquakes, famines and pestilences would not indicate that the end and His return is at hand, but are instead "the beginning of sorrows". Paul taught that people would be saying "peace and safety" before Jesus comes as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3) and Jesus said people would be going about their normal business (marrying, eating and drinking, etc.) before He comes like a thief (Matthew 24:35-44) while being oblivious about His return. Why are you not taking those scriptures into consideration here?

Nope, it appears they won't suspect anything because He comes "as in the days of Noah, people were just going about their everyday business, getting married, getting a double double at In & Out, waiting in line for the movie Tron: Ares or Black Phone 2.

Okay, so you do get that. Yet, Jesus said He is coming "after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29-31). So, the tribulation He was talking about can't be in relation to physical catastrophes since that would contradict what He said about those kinds of things only being "the beginning of sorrows". So, He was talking about tribulation in the form of increased deception, wickedness, apostasy and persecution, as He talked about in Matthew 24:9-13 and Matthew 24:23-26.

No, a Great Tribulation where more than half of people die on the planet would give it away - don't ya think?

LOL. How does believing there will be a "Great Tribulation where more than half of people die on the planet" before Jesus returns line up with Paul saying that unbelievers will be saying "peace and safety" just before Jesus comes as a thief in the night at His return?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What are you referring too here what's the questions I'm not sure what you mean?

Don't waste your time with him. He is not willing to exegete any scripture to show how it (supposedly) lines up with his doctrine and he seems unable to speak clearly or make a coherent argument.

 

[Douggg]

It can make someone think that way because it teaches that people can be saved after the rapture. Why are you defending the false teaching that people can be saved after the rapture when Jesus made it clear in Luke 17:26-37 that those left behind will be killed just like those who were left out of the ark were killed by the flood in Noah's day and those left behind in Sodom were killed in Lot's day?

The gospel of Salvation pertains to the salvation of the soul from the power of sin to eternally separate a person from God.

Multitudes have died in Christ since the time of the cross. Their deceased bodies will someday be resurrected into eternal life incorruptible bodies.

So being saved during the great tribulation does not mean that a saved person will not die during the great tribulation. Multitudes coming to Christ for salvation of their souls during the great tribulation will die during that time. In Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude are such persons.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is a huge difference in holding to a Biblical doctrine, and clinging to some hope of escape.

I would ask you, myself being a pre-tribber, to you actually think that I think I won't/don't have to endure persecution and troubles? With all kindness and respect, what ever would give you that idea about me??

You weren't talking to me, but my response would be that I don't know you and wouldn't personally make that claim about you. But, what do you think the reason(s) would be for a pre-trib rapture, keeping in mind that scripture says "We must through much tribulation enter the kingdom of God.” (Acts 14:22) and "and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution" (2 Tim 3:12) and Jesus said "In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The gospel of Salvation pertains to the salvation of the soul from the power of sin to eternally separate a person from God.

Of course. Why did you think you needed to tell me something that everyone here knows?

Multitudes have died in Christ since the time of the cross.

Another obvious statement. Why are you saying these obvious things?

Their deceased bodies will someday be resurrected into eternal life incorruptible bodies.

Another obvious statement. What is the point?

So being saved during the great tribulation does not mean that a saved person will not die during the great tribulation.

When did I say otherwise? Nothing you're saying here has anything to do with anything I had said.

Multitudes coming to Christ for salvation of their souls during the great tribulation will die during that time. In Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude are such persons.

I never said anything about no one physically dying who is spiritually saved during the great tribulation, so I have no idea why you are saying this to me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's the same thing they do with the Sheep/Goats judgment. They cannot accept it as written because it shows all but pre-trib to be false.

Please explain to me in detail how the sheep/goats judgment supports pre-trib when Jesus said that will occur when He comes with His angels (Matt 25:31) which He said will occur "after the tribulation of those days" (Matt 24:29-31)?

 

[Marty fox]

Didn't really intend for this, but this thread actually dismantled Post-Tribs (and for certain the Amillennials who are totally out of touch); since their views cannot explain or identify with Isaiah 11:6-10 and 65:17-25. This is a big problem for them. If Christains are all resurrected and there is no one left behind because everyone else is dead; then in what reality do these people in Isaiah exist, woth babies bei g born and people still dying? They'll probably spirituality it, come up with some erroneous symbolism?

Isaiah 11
6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling[a] together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.
10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious.

Animals in the bible represent people and nations these animals are enemies to each other, thus its showing that who were ones enemies people will live in peace with each other within the church we will be one people, that the point of the holy mountain mentioned in verse 9.

Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Its the same as below

Isaiah 65
17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 “Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the Lord.

The above verse is definitely talking about the same verses below it even starts with the same opening as verse 17 above

Revelation 21
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”


Lets let the scriptures interpret scripture and not us

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then that is a total contradiction of John 3:16 and other verses that promise salvation to anyone that repents.

Many satanist have repented and been saved.

Think about it, Paul was persecuting and ordering the execution of the church and God saved him after he repented, and you think that this very same God would reject anyone who repents of taking a physical mark?

That would put our salvation on what we did not what Jesus did.

Right. How can salvation be dependent on taking a physical mark or not when salvation is spiritual and requires faith and repentance, not performing any physical act or avoiding performing any certain physical act? It's clear to me that the mark of the beast is not physical, but is the spiritual opposite of the seal of God (the seal of the Holy Spirit - Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30).

 

[Marty fox]

Right. How can salvation be dependent on taking a physical mark or not when salvation is spiritual and requires faith and repentance, not performing any physical act or avoiding performing any certain physical act? It's clear to me that the mark of the beast is not physical, but is the spiritual opposite of the seal of God (the seal of the Holy Spirit - Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30).

Yes exactly nice post

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Didn't really intend for this, but this thread actually dismantled Post-Tribs (and for certain the Amillennials who are totally out of touch); since their views cannot explain or identify with Isaiah 11:6-10 and 65:17-25. This is a big problem for them.

It's not a problem for Amillennialists at all. Why do you say that? Are you somehow unaware that Paul quoted Isaiah 11:10 in the following passage and applied it to the salvation of the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, which obviously began already long ago?

Romans 15:7 Therefore receive one another, just as Christ also received us, to the glory of God. 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers, 9 and that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy, as it is written: “For this reason I will confess to You among the Gentiles, And sing to Your name.” 10 And again he says:
“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people!” 11 And again: Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles! Laud Him, all you peoples!” 12 And again, Isaiah says:
“There shall be a root of Jesse; And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles, In Him the Gentiles shall hope.”

Paul quoted Isaiah 11:10 in Romans 15:12 in a New Testament era context. Why do you try to apply it to a future millennial earthly kingdom instead? Do you not think Paul knew what he was talking about?

If Christains are all resurrected and there is no one left behind because everyone else is dead; then in what reality do these people in Isaiah exist, woth babies bei g born and people still dying? They'll probably spirituality it, come up with some erroneous symbolism?

Why do you interpret Isaiah 65:17-25 in such a way that contradicts what Peter said about the new heavens and new earth (only righteousness will dwell there - 2 Peter 3:13) and and what John said about the new heavens and new earth (no more death, crying, sorrow or pain - Revelation 21:4). Do you think it's acceptable to cause scripture to contradict itself? Obviously, it's not. So, why do you think that Isaiah taught there would be people dying on the new earth when John said there will be no more death on the new earth? Do you even attempt to reconcile this? Do you think you don't need to? If so, you need to think again because otherwise you are saying that Isaiah 65:17-25 is true and Revelation 21:1-4 is not.

Isaiah's original audience, unlike John's, had no concept of eternity. Really, no one had much of a concept of it until Jesus came to make eternal life possible for all who believe in Him. So, Isaiah wrote about eternity in such a way that his audience could understand. He spoke of a child being 100 years old and dying. Who ever heard of a 100 year old child? That right there should tell you he was speaking symbolically, and not literally.

Also, Isaiah 65:19, like Revelation 21:4, talks about no more weeping and crying on the new earth. What do you think, that people will die during the thousand years and no one will mourn their deaths? That's obviously ridiculous. So, it's clear that you haven't put much thought into this and you need to start doing that so you understand that there will be no more death on the new earth and you should try to make Isaiah 65:17-25 say something different about the conditions of the new heavens and new earth than what Peter and John taught.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Postribs Can Not unpack the 10 virgin parable, nor can they understand Jesus analogy of Noah, and Lot.

I am so glad I am not in that trap.

And, yet, you do nothing to "unpack the 10 virgin parable" yourself and you do nothing to show how "Jesus analogy of Noah, and Lot" supports your doctrine. So, apparently, you cannot do what you say post-tribs cannot do. At least, you haven't so far. How about you show us how you do that instead of just making claims without showing anything to support them?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Who will repopulate the earth? Scripture in Isaiah describe a different earth than you imagine. Since we, with our new resurrected bodies cannot procreate (no husbands and wives in heaven), obviously mortals will survive, many Jewish converts and likely millions of new believers coming to faith after the Rapture.

Why are you talking about mass conversion during a time of great tribulation just before Jesus returns when both Jesus and Paul said there would be mass apostasy and a significant increase in deception and wickedness before He returns (Matt 24:10-13, 2 Thess 2:3-12)? And why would Jesus say "Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?” Luke 18:8) if there would be a mass conversion shortly before He comes?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Maybe you don't understand the verse?
The day of the Lord's return will not come until the Antichrist is revealed. This just means at this time, which could be at the same time. The Restrainer ( Holy Spirit) is taken out of the way, for the Antichrist to have full reign during his short time. Swe are and the Church is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, which will being taken out if the way. Evil on earth will he unrestrained during the Great Tribulation. But the Antichrist will deceive and appear to be a peace maker but he will be evil incarnate.
And you know what restrains him now, so that he will be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed. 2 Thes. 2:6-7

In another post of yours you said there would be "many Jewish converts and likely millions of new believers coming to faith after the Rapture". How could that happen without the Holy Spirit being present on the earth and with evil on earth being unrestrained? That makes no sense. You say a lot of contradictory things.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

This proves that the mark of the beast is not literal mark but a constant unrepentant devotion to satan. A literal mark of the beast contradicts John 3:16

It is both a spiritual condition of the heart, a rejection of Christ, a submission to the Beast, but also a physical mark. But how would you explain not being able to buybir sell unless you had the mark? Do you think they will have a spiritual detection unit at every cash register? In a cashless society, which they are already planning for, every person will be chipped. A very small injection of a micro chip. You scan it and you get groceries don't have it, you going fishing, hunt deer and/or grow your own food. If you had a farm, the government will come and take it from you so you'll go hungry without the mark.