Let’s Do a “ Dangerous” Experiment— BB plays “ God”......

[Ferris Bueller]

....Even James talked about the “ enticement Of sin” and we are in these weak earthen vessels and can give- in to our Old Adamic Nature.....

Yes, ENTICEMENT. Willfully sinning is when you sin when there is NO enticement to do it. You just do it because you want to. That's the sinning of the greasy gracer. At least the legalist is struck in conscience about sinning and tries not to, even if it is in his own power. I can fellowship with a legalist. There's hope for them. They love God and WANT to serve him. They just don't know how to. But I have no respect for the greaser gracer who knows about the grace of God but who chooses to willfully sin anyway.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What makes you think a person that has the honesty and the brains to admit that they are still Sinners even though they are Saved by their Faith in Jesus is “ Living FOR Sin”

I don't think that. 'Living for sin' is the venue of the unbelieving, grace rejecter, not saved believers. Christians who love God and want to serve him do not 'live' for sin. They live for righteousness, but sin is the annoyance that gets in the way. But unbelievers, living in contempt for God's grace, they live for sin and righteousness is the annoyance that gets in their way.

 

[farouk]

+\

Instead of debating that dead end topic I think it more wise to talk about what the Bible says to do......

Hebrews 3:6
Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are His house, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope of which we boast.

@Ferris Bueller Sorry, how did you mean, dead end? must have missed your point...

 

[Ferris Bueller]

“ Living FOR Sin”...... it’s like saying I “ Live” for things that make me Miserable.....

Yep, and it's what every Christ rejecting, grace rejecting person does, in and out of the church. Go figure.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

@Ferris Bueller Sorry, how did you mean, dead end? must have missed your point...

The once saved always saved discussion is always deadlocked. Each of us thinks what we want to think about it. But in the end it doesn't matter what you or I think about it. What's important is that we must endure to the end to be saved in the end. Whether or not the person who doesn't endure to the end was really saved to begin with, or whether they lost their salvation doesn't change the fact that we have to endure to the end to be saved when Jesus comes back. Let's focus on what actually matters—enduring in faith to the very end.

 

[farouk]

The once saved always saved discussion is always deadlocked. Each of us thinks what we want to think about it. But in the end it doesn't matter what you or I think about it. What's important is that we must endure to the end to be saved in the end. Whether or not the person who doesn't endure to the end was really saved to begin with, or whether they lost their salvation doesn't change the fact that we have to endure to the end to be saved when Jesus comes back. Let's focus on what actually matters—enduring in faith to the very end.

@Ferris Bueller It's all of grace to endure anyway. Romans 8.38-39 is evidently talking about true believers.

Those - despite whatever they may profess - who live and die in sin and unbelief were never true believers in the first place.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What you don’t see is this—- The Love and Gratitude one has for God when you see that you are Totally Forgiven when you Trust in the Gospel Of 1Cor15:1-4 and the FINISHED work of the Cross ... does not lead to what you think it does....to think that God's Way to Save, Grace Plus Nothing , automatically leads to a life of debauchery says more about YOU than you realize!

I didn't say that.

What I'm saying is 'grace plus nothing' does not mean you can willfully sin. Grace plus none of your works is not your license to sin willfully. The person who sins willfully is showing their contempt and unbelief for the blood of the Covenant. Grace is for the struggling, believing saint who wants to walk in the Spirit but is still scuffing his shins on the trials and temptations of life. God patches that person up, sets him back on his feet to live another day. But wrath on the day of judgment is waiting for the person who sins on purpose and refuses all correction. No one gets away with abusing the grace of God.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

@Ferris Bueller It's all of grace to endure anyway. Romans 8.38-39 is evidently talking about true believers.

Those - despite whatever they may profess - who live and die in sin and unbelief were never true believers in the first place.

True or not, it doesn't change the fact that we have to endure to the very end to be saved in the very end. That's the important point that we should encourage each other with. It does no good to encourage someone with a once saved always saved teaching. Because if they're not really saved to begin with, they're only deceiving themselves that they are ready to meet Christ when he comes back. Once saved always saved teachings don't address the issue of salvation itself.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If you fell into a river and were “ this close” to drowning and about to go over a 100’ waterfall with a rocky bottom where a grizzly death were assured and somebody jumps in and rescues you , how much convincing and cajoling would it take to actually make you “ WANT” to do something good for the guy that Saved You...... the worst Scoundrel in the World would at least buy the guy that “ SAVED Him”... a box of cigars, don’t you think?

And yet there really are people who purposely jump back into the river that was going to kill them, showing complete contempt for the one who saved him. Grace was not given to us so we can purposely jump back into the water and not die. Grace was given to us to rescue us from the water that was going to kill us and keep us out of it, and to rescue us again when the shore breaks away under us and we slip back into it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I ‘ owe” you nothing, except perhaps a “ thank you “ for proving my point that you can’t “ get it “..... I also thank you for serving as an excellent “ springboard” for getting Truths out there for Newbies that will not get good teaching in their religious lodge meetings.....

You still haven't explained to us where 1 John 3:10 fits into your theology. How is the willfully sinning saved person in your theology different than the unsaved person who lives in sin in 1 John 3:10. You want to be a teacher, so you owe us an explanation. I want you to explain it yourself, because when I explain it for you you deny that's what you're saying.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

I think you're the one who is not getting it. What is it about 1 John 3:10 that you do not understand?

1 John 3:10
Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God

Who is this person John is talking about? They do not practice righteousness and are therefore not of God. Where does he fit in your theology? How is he different than you who purposely sins? You owe it to us to explain it since you are the one who is defending purposely sinning in the name of grace.

You “ practice Righteousness “ by doing what Jesus SAID to do: “ BELIEVE in the One that He sent”.
I do that—- I Believe in HIM and “HIS” Performance .....not mine. That will serve me well on Judgement Day—— Jesus gets ALL of the Praise and Glory.....BB gets NONE.God likes that ....turns out that Jehovah is “ Still” a “ Jealous” God.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

If you're talking about me I made it quite clear that I still sin. What I don't do is PURPOSELY sin. When I sin it's because I'm tired and not thinking, or I'm weak, or ignorant or blind, or something like that. I don't think I have ever sinned defiantly just because I wanted to.


Willful sinning IS defiant sinning. And it doesn't have to be as dramatic as you're making it out to be, lol. You know better not to do it. You have to power not to do it, but you do anyway. That's willfully sinning. It is rejecting the grace of God. It's insulting the Spirit of grace. It's showing contempt for the blood of the Covenant that sanctified you. The 'Christian' who is doing that has a serious disconnect between them and salvation. A very serious one.


I don't do that. By the time it's that far along I'm in the mind set of the Spirit and I don't do it. I couldn't in good conscience be at that point and then sin just for the sake of sinning. I sin because there is some work of the enemy, or my own flesh deceiving me into sinning. If those compulsions to sin are absent and I'm not sensing any compulsion to sin, I don't.

I am certain that God will be very impressed with all of the complications that you have overcome in whatever it is that you Believe .....I can’t figure it out....it sure aint Biblical....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

And yet there really are people who purposely jump back into the river that was going to kill them, showing complete contempt for the one who saved him. Grace was not given to us so we can purposely jump back into the water and not die. Grace was given to us to rescue us from the water that was going to kill us and keep us out of it, and to rescue us again when the shore breaks away under us and we slip back into it.

“Contempt for a true Salvation would be like having contempt for somebody that saw you on Fire from head to toe and threw a bucket of water on you to douse the flames .....you are getting more and more absurd in your thinking as the days go by....
If something happened, and your reaction was Contempt .....that “ something” was NOT Salvation.....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

You still haven't explained to us where 1 John 3:10 fits into your theology. How is the willfully sinning saved person in your theology different than the unsaved person who lives in sin in 1 John 3:10. You want to be a teacher, so you owe us an explanation. I want you to explain it yourself, because when I explain it for you you deny that's what you're saying.

Anybody that has put their Faith in Jesus and Him only to be Saved has “ done Righteousness “..... you think that Jesus is referring to a person that is doing an exemplary job of keeping the Law....somebody who has made himself “ worthy” by a Stellar Performance at “ being good?”
If this is what Jesus is taking about , Paul sure is one mixed- up guy. He said, speaking for Jesus and inspired by the Holy Spirit,That NO MAN would be Justified by keeping the Law....the only “ Righteousness” any human -being has ever had was IMPUTED to him.....he got that IMPUTATION by Believing Jesus was who He said that He was—- God's Only Son and Your Savior.......

 

[justbyfaith]

I do that—- I Believe in HIM and “HIS” Performance .....not mine.

It is His performance as He lives His life in you and through you (Galatians 2:20, Romans 5:19)...it translates into what you do as being righteousness even as He is righteous (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

Anybody that has put their Faith in Jesus and Him only to be Saved has “ done Righteousness “..... you think that Jesus is referring to a person that is doing an exemplary job of keeping the Law....somebody who has made himself “ worthy” by a Stellar Performance at “ being good?”
If this is what Jesus is taking about , Paul sure is one mixed- up guy. He said, speaking for Jesus and inspired by the Holy Spirit,That NO MAN would be Justified by keeping the Law....the only “ Righteousness” any human -being has ever had was IMPUTED to him.....he got that IMPUTATION by Believing Jesus was who He said that He was—- God's Only Son and Your Savior.......

The righteousness of Christ is not only imputed...it is also imparted (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

No one is justified by keeping the law because no one can keep the law if they are attempting to obey it (Galatians 6:13).

However, if you have faith in Christ, you will be given the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14) and will bear the fruit of the Spirit. And there is no law that will condemn your behaviour if you are bearing this fruit (Galatians 5:22-23).

The righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in you if you walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4); but if you attempt to obtain righteousness by keeping a set of do's and don'ts, you will fall miserably short (Galatians 6:13).

Therefore we are justified by the faith of Christ and the result will be that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Galatians 3:14, Romans 8:4).

Therefore, if the righteousness of the law is not fulfilled in you, you ought to question as to whether you have faith in Christ or whether you have faith in a false sysyem of belief (see 2 Corinthians 13:5).

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You “ practice Righteousness “ by doing what Jesus SAID to do: “ BELIEVE in the One that He sent”.
I do that—- I Believe in HIM and “HIS” Performance .....not mine. That will serve me well on Judgement Day—— Jesus gets ALL of the Praise and Glory.....BB gets NONE.God likes that ....turns out that Jehovah is “ Still” a “ Jealous” God.

"BELIEVE in the One that He sent" won't save you on the day of Judgment if that belief doesn't wash in how you live. Belief that is alone will not save you. James says so. Genuine faith in God's forgiveness changes a person. If you don't have that change, you show that you don't have that forgiveness and you're not ready to meet Jesus when he comes back. Faith that is 'alone' isn't going to save you, friend.

James 2:14,18
14 if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
18 Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

If you are really justified by faith apart from works you will not have a faith that is alone. That's the truth that greasy gracers turn a blind eye to. Even Paul said the faith that justifies apart from works is the faith that "expresses itself through love" Galatians 5:6.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I am certain that God will be very impressed with all of the complications that you have overcome in whatever it is that you Believe .....I can’t figure it out....it sure aint Biblical....

What's so complicated about the difference between sinning because you're being harassed by the enemy or the flesh and sinning on purpose just because you want to? You can't figure that out?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If something happened, and your reaction was Contempt .....that “ something” was NOT Salvation.....

Then stop saying Christians can purposely sin! Purposely and willfully sinning is the sign of the person who has chosen to not trust in the grace of God. He is showing his contempt for the grace of God. That's hardly the mark of a person saved by faith. That person is not having faith in God that he should somehow think he is protected by faith for the day of Christ.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Anybody that has put their Faith in Jesus and Him only to be Saved has “ done Righteousness “..

Good luck with that. You're going to need it. Faith that is 'alone' is not the faith that saves. A person's righteous work is the proof they have God's righteousness inside of them producing that work. In the end, no proof of God's righteousness on the outside means you don't have God's righteousness through faith in Christ on the inside.

... you think that Jesus is referring to a person that is doing an exemplary job of keeping the Law....somebody who has made himself “ worthy” by a Stellar Performance at “ being good?”

Nobody makes themselves worthy by the works of the law. Only the giving of the Holy Spirit through faith in God can even begin to come anywhere close to producing a "stellar performance at being good" in someone.

If this is what Jesus is taking about , Paul sure is one mixed- up guy. He said, speaking for Jesus and inspired by the Holy Spirit,That NO MAN would be Justified by keeping the Law..

No man can make himself righteous by working the works of the law. You don't get changed by trying to do righteous things. The only way to become righteous in God's sight is to have your unrighteousness wiped away through forgiveness, and to have God's righteousness credited to your account. That righteousness is given to you via the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit not only makes you legally righteous but it is also what makes you righteous in word and deed. That's why the person who is not producing works of righteousness is showing himself to not have the righteousness of God in him to produce those righteous works.

1 John 3:7-8
do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8The one who does what is sinful is of the devil

..the only “ Righteousness” any human -being has ever had was IMPUTED to him.....he got that IMPUTATION by Believing Jesus was who He said that He was—- God's Only Son and Your Savior.......

That is absolutely right. But saying you have that righteousness imputed to you and then not being righteous is like saying you're wearing a white robe while standing there naked as a jail bird. This is the truth your teachers are not teaching you. Instead they are leading you astray and saying the unrighteous person also has the righteousness of God as long as they 'believe'. Not true. See 1 John 3:7-8 above.

If God's imputed righteousness is not making you righteous in your behavior then you don't have God's imputed righteousness, and you're not ready to meet Jesus when he comes back. At least even the legalist in the church has some righteous behavior to show for his faith in Christ. He just hasn't learned how to do it with joy and more consistently and effectively through the power of the Holy Spirit. But the greasy gracer is down at the saloon getting drunk and lusting after wayward women thinking his unrighteous life means nothing because salvation is not by works. Not knowing his unrighteous behavior is showing that he does not have the imputed righteousness of God in salvation.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Good luck with that. You're going to need it. Faith that is 'alone' is not the faith that saves. A person's righteous work is the proof they have God's righteousness inside of them producing that work. In the end, no proof of God's righteousness on the outside means you don't have God's righteousness through faith in Christ on the inside.


Nobody makes themselves worthy by the works of the law. Only the giving of the Holy Spirit through faith in God can even begin to come anywhere close to producing a "stellar performance at being good" in someone.


No man can make himself righteous by working the works of the law. You don't get changed by trying to do righteous things. The only way to become righteous in God's sight is to have your unrighteousness wiped away through forgiveness, and to have God's righteousness credited to your account. That righteousness is given to you via the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit not only makes you legally righteous but it is also what makes you righteous in word and deed. That's why the person who is not producing works of righteousness is showing himself to not have the righteousness of God in him to produce those righteous works.

1 John 3:7-8
do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8The one who does what is sinful is of the devil


That is absolutely right. But saying you have that righteousness imputed to you and then not being righteous is like saying you're wearing a white robe while standing there naked as a jail bird. This is the truth your teachers are not teaching you. Instead they are leading you astray and saying the unrighteous person also has the righteousness of God as long as they 'believe'. Not true. See 1 John 3:7-8 above.

If God's imputed righteousness is not making you righteous in your behavior then you don't have God's imputed righteousness, and you're not ready to meet Jesus when he comes back. At least even the legalist in the church has some righteous behavior to show for his faith in Christ. He just hasn't learned how to do it with joy and more consistently and effectively through the power of the Holy Spirit. But the greasy gracer is down at the saloon getting drunk and lusting after wayward women thinking his unrighteous life means nothing because salvation is not by works. Not knowing his unrighteous behavior is showing that he does not have the imputed righteousness of God in salvation.

Anybody that believes in “ greasy Grace” must also count the Blood Of Christ that paid the Price for That Grace as “ greasy” also.....God will love hearing that ...
God made a Promise to “Save Anybody that asks to be Saved” .....when it comes to Saving Souls, God squarely put the “Monkey” on HIS Back, if I may put it rather crudely.. ....the drunken man in the Saloon , ogling the “ loose women? “ I don’t care if he owns the Bar and operates a Whore-House upstairs! If at ANY time in his life, he (like the wicked Publican in Jesus example) ever cried out with Sincerity, “ Lord Jesus ...have Mercy on me , a Sinner !” .....THAT man is gonna be in Heaven .....if he has Faith in Jesus and Nothing Else to Save Him, Jesus will present him before His Father as “ Blameless”
When it comes to Christianity ,, we are ALL Dirty- - some Dirtier than others . Only Jesus can Make the best or worst of us “ clean”...... the cleaning job takes longer in some that it doe others.....Christians can be stubborn and they can be foolish....Poor God, He figured out how to “ clean” Murderers like Moses and David and Paul.....Whores like Rehab.....Thieves like the Thief on the Cross and Paul dealt with those who committed Incest and Blasphemy.......But God can’t forgive and transform and chastise a drunken skirt- chaser and make that person “ fit for Heaven?” That was me 35 years ago..... one night amidst all of my “ debauchery”, God blessed me with a visit from the Holy Spirit . That Spirit showed me that I was a Wretched Sinner headed for Hell like a speeding bullet..... “ Nobody comes to God Without the Holy Spirit drawing him” ......the Spirit “ drew” me by the Conviction Of sin. My response was the one God was looking for .....I made no promises to “ stop sinning” or to “ be good”.......I was just like the Sinful Publican . All that I could do was cry out— with “fear and trembling” ——“ God, Save me !” I still spent years caught up in my Sinful Lifestyle....It took years for God to use a combination of Grace, Forgiveness , circumstance and Chastisement to mold me into a person who even “ appeared” to be a Saved man
I still ain’t nothing to brag about , but the Truth about God Is that the “ closer” you get to God , the farther away you see yourself .I am still a Sinner, but not NEAR the Sinner I used to be as men judge these things.My point is , a man can be Saved for many years , simply because he saw his Fallen Condition, and Turned to God ( the Repentance That leads to Salvation) and cried out for Mercy. Jesus said if you ask God for Mercy , he will see to it that you Receive it. That’s All I ever did. It worked for me and it will work for you.....All those years I remained in my Sinful Lifestyle, I was only hurting myself ....as the Bible says “ there is Pleasure in Sin—— BUT—— only for a while”
I had my “ pleasures”— there is no denying it.....what this Fool did NOT know....God had something better all along .....it’s called “ JOY” ..... I got that now.....I never had it before. Happiness can be had in this lifetime. ...it is fleeting, as it depends on events and “ getting good stuff” . A life can be replete with Pleasure, but it is even MORE fleeting....
The JOY That is God's Reward for RESTING in His Gospel Of Grace is something that you take Wherever you go , deponent on Nothing external ....I would trade it for Nothing .It is a great incentive for Obedience, incidentally ..... the-more “ Obedient” I am —- the more Joy I get.....God Bless...