Let your women be silent?

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Prayer Warrior

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(smile), thanks for the reply... and no, your are not off the hook, because God have great thing for you to do. remember there is neither male nor female in Christ. so listen real Good, you're married to Christ...Ooop's ... (smile), and your husband, JESUS the Christ, has a lot to teach all of us, including YOU too, Mrs Prayer Warrior, (smile).... lol.. now, might as well get ready to learn, as we all are, from YOUR/our husband ... the Lord Jesus the Christ.... now, what you git to say about that?

PICJAG.
You’re right! The Lord is my husband ever since my husband died over 6 years ago. And even when my husband was alive, I was very close to Jesus, who is everything to me! :)
 

101G

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You’re right! The Lord is my husband ever since my husband died over 6 years ago. And even when my husband was alive, I was very close to Jesus, who is everything to me! :)
Now you're speaking like a TRUE wife, scripture,
Romans 14:8 "For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's."
Romans 14:9 "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living."

PICJAG.
 
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Giuliano

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Mayor Hogue agrees saying with one stipulation: "...that those leading the public prayer be young men."

“I am a Church of Christ preacher and I am a member of the Church of Christ and we take the new testament literally,” Mayor Hogue said.
Why does he say young men? It makes me wonder how heterosexual this fellow actually is. He's married, okay, I get that -- but that comment makes me wonder if he has an eye for "young men." So far as I know, there is nowhere in the Bible thats old men shouldn't be allowed to lead prayers.
 

101G

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Why does he say young men? It makes me wonder how heterosexual this fellow actually is. He's married, okay, I get that -- but that comment makes me wonder if he has an eye for "young men." So far as I know, there is nowhere in the Bible thats old men shouldn't be allowed to lead prayers.
(smile), now Giuliano you know you are about to start something.... lol.

PICJAG.
 
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Justadude

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Why does he say young men? It makes me wonder how heterosexual this fellow actually is. He's married, okay, I get that -- but that comment makes me wonder if he has an eye for "young men." So far as I know, there is nowhere in the Bible thats old men shouldn't be allowed to lead prayers.
I wondered about that myself. Regardless, it's obvious this guy is rather odd.
 

bbyrd009

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Huh. Never heard that before. That'd be an odd way for Paul to have put it, don't you think?
well, i think it needed to be put in such a way so as to "hide wisdom from the wise," which i guess seems maybe pointless? But see then we get to witness "the wise" bloviate about all the "facts" and "proof" that they have that literal women--rather than old white guys perpetually on their first period--shouldnt be talking or whatever, and one is usually/always able to note their emoting in the process, right.

now i dont know, ok, but a contrast might be two rational ppl discussing whether to let Becky run ________; would they even consider whether she was a female or not, in the vast number of scenarios? Anyway it seems to work in conjunction with all the other vv that come to mind on the concept, and her desire will be for her husband, etc, or iow "ppl are completely rational until their emotions take over" or whatever
Huh. Never heard that before. That'd be an odd way for Paul to have put it, don't you think?
plus we are warned that Paul is easy to misinterpret, lotsa ppl swear they can Quote "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," and all that
 
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Justadude

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well, i think it needed to be put in such a way so as to "hide wisdom from the wise," which i guess seems maybe pointless?
Actually it seems pretty cruel. Why would God deliberately exclude smart people? Isn't that just another way of saying "Christianity is only for dumb people"? :p

But see then we get to witness "the wise" bloviate about all the "facts" and "proof" that they have that literal women--rather than old white guys perpetually on their first period--shouldnt be talking or whatever, and one is usually/always able to note their emoting in the process, right.
Ah, so maybe "the wise" refers to people who think their teachings and interpretations are absolutely correct? That would make more sense.

now i dont know, ok, but a contrast might be two rational ppl discussing whether to let Becky run ________; would they even consider whether she was a female or not, in the vast number of scenarios? Anyway it seems to work in conjunction with all the other vv that come to mind on the concept, and her desire will be for her husband, etc, or iow "ppl are completely rational until their emotions take over" or whatever
The whole thing seems to me to be an artifact of ancient social norms, similar to how the in the OT women are sometimes seen as property.

plus we are warned that Paul is easy to misinterpret, lotsa ppl swear they can Quote "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," and all that
I can't help but wonder why a god couldn't figure out a better way to convey this all-important message to humanity.
 

bbyrd009

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Ah, so maybe "the wise" refers to people who think their teachings and interpretations are absolutely correct? That would make more sense.
^

The whole thing seems to me to be an artifact of ancient social norms, similar to how the in the OT women are sometimes seen as property.
well, that was a diff world i guess, i dunno, women are still often considered property, even in the Western world, although i guess no one really admits that? Anyway, i think the passage is stated such that one may interpret literally, or spiritually, and will be revealed in their interpretation. There are no male or female in the kingdom almost has to be the primer for our definitions of those though imo, otherwise why is it in there?
I can't help but wonder why a god couldn't figure out a better way to convey this all-important message to humanity.
not sure how one could do any better than to write a story that ends up reading the reader myself; in a way almost the opposite of Dao stories, right, where everyone agrees, all the time?

but i could maybe provide a little illustration, if you were to say what ezackly the "all-important message" is? "Women should keep silent in church?" Who defines "church?" "Church" is not a building, right, except to the literal minded? 1 Corinthians 14:34 Lexicon: The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. so, there is no "church" in that v anyway, see, but "congregations," and also the ending there, "under the law" basically? So this v is loaded with apparent inconsistencies, when read literally anyway.

but also at this point i would want to read the whole chapter, as sometimes a kind of tic delivery can be detected; so ill try tonight
 

Stan B

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"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
I think Paul was addressing the culture of his day, where men were provided with academic education, and women were not.

The great historian Alfred Edersheim provides an excellent history to the period in his "Life and Times of the Messiah".

In those days, boys and girls were educated together, often by the local rabbi, until age 5. After that, girls were confined to their homes to learn what women had to learn for the family to survive in those days, while boys would go on to higher education, perhaps the equivalent of public school. Out of the educated boys, only the one who excelled beyond the rest might be chosen to be offered a scholarship to continue on to higher education at the Temple. The Apostle Paul was one of those, a Hebrew of the Hebrews, to went on to obtain the education equivalent to a PhD.
 

VictoryinJesus

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but i could maybe provide a little illustration, if you were to say what ezackly the "all-important message" is? "Women should keep silent in church?" Who defines "church?" "Church" is not a building, right,
 

Justadude

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well, that was a diff world i guess, i dunno, women are still often considered property, even in the Western world, although i guess no one really admits that? Anyway, i think the passage is stated such that one may interpret literally, or spiritually, and will be revealed in their interpretation. There are no male or female in the kingdom almost has to be the primer for our definitions of those though imo, otherwise why is it in there?
Okay then.

not sure how one could do any better than to write a story that ends up reading the reader myself; in a way almost the opposite of Dao stories, right, where everyone agrees, all the time?
It could be done in a way that's clear, concise, and logical, rather than in a way that leads to countless different interpretations.

but i could maybe provide a little illustration, if you were to say what ezackly the "all-important message" is? "Women should keep silent in church?" Who defines "church?" "Church" is not a building, right, except to the literal minded? 1 Corinthians 14:34 Lexicon: The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. so, there is no "church" in that v anyway, see, but "congregations," and also the ending there, "under the law" basically? So this v is loaded with apparent inconsistencies, when read literally anyway.

but also at this point i would want to read the whole chapter, as sometimes a kind of tic delivery can be detected; so ill try tonight
I meant the "all important message" about salvation.
 

Justadude

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I think Paul was addressing the culture of his day, where men were provided with academic education, and women were not.

The great historian Alfred Edersheim provides an excellent history to the period in his "Life and Times of the Messiah".

In those days, boys and girls were educated together, often by the local rabbi, until age 5. After that, girls were confined to their homes to learn what women had to learn for the family to survive in those days, while boys would go on to higher education, perhaps the equivalent of public school. Out of the educated boys, only the one who excelled beyond the rest might be chosen to be offered a scholarship to continue on to higher education at the Temple. The Apostle Paul was one of those, a Hebrew of the Hebrews, to went on to obtain the education equivalent to a PhD.
Thanks Stan. That makes more sense and is consistent with what I said about that passage being an artifact from the culture of the time. So now that women are just as educated as men, the passage no longer applies.
 
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bbyrd009

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It could be done in a way that's clear, concise, and logical, rather than in a way that leads to countless different interpretations.
ah well but i suspect that the many interpretations part is exactly the point; What works for you may not work for me; and we already tried the law and that doesn’t work, or only works to a point, which our current laws even reflect, we have jury nullification now and etc.

I meant the "all important message" about salvation.
Well, but salvation from what? See we are dealing with a human population that wants to become immortal after they have died, right; and the possibility of this was a very common belief 2000 years ago I guess, known as Mithraism. So, I suspect that the Bible is written in such a way so is to bring those people along, Apollos waters, and bring them along in such a way so that they might see eventually that life more abundantly is the actual goal.

But of course none of us went out into the wilderness to see a new way to overcome their own egos right? Nobody (or few anyway) actually follows Jesus literal instructions to the 70 or the 12, and etc. The point being their definition of “salvation“ is warped, and the authors did not want to just flush these people down the toilet, because every now and then one of them will come along who actually reads the Bible and discovers the truth
imo
Ah, so maybe "the wise" refers to people who think their teachings and interpretations are absolutely correct? That would make more sense.
Yes, the “wise in their own eyes”
 

Justadude

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ah well but i suspect that the many interpretations part is exactly the point; What works for you may not work for me; and we already tried the law and that doesn’t work, or only works to a point, which our current laws even reflect, we have jury nullification now and etc.
Except this isn't a matter of personal taste, it's about mutually exclusive interpretations.

Well, but salvation from what? See we are dealing with a human population that wants to become immortal after they have died, right; and the possibility of this was a very common belief 2000 years ago I guess, known as Mithraism. So, I suspect that the Bible is written in such a way so is to bring those people along, Apollos waters, and bring them along in such a way so that they might see eventually that life more abundantly is the actual goal.
Do you believe in heaven and/or hell?

But of course none of us went out into the wilderness to see a new way to overcome their own egos right? Nobody (or few anyway) actually follows Jesus literal instructions to the 70 or the 12, and etc. The point being their definition of “salvation“ is warped, and the authors did not want to just flush these people down the toilet, because every now and then one of them will come along who actually reads the Bible and discovers the truth
imo
It's fascinating to see how many Christians insist on what is "truth" and how divergent those truths are.

Yes, the “wise in their own eyes”
Isn't that kind of what you just did above?
 
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bbyrd009

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Except this isn't a matter of personal taste, it's about mutually exclusive interpretations.
imo Any interpretation that is not correct will not line up with some bit of scripture somewhere? Which is I guess why you can’t get many believers to engage at verses like No one has ever gone up to heaven

Do you believe in heaven and/or hell?
Well I believe the kingdom of heaven is within you, and Gehenna is a place on earth...So in other words i guess “no”

He who digs a pit for others to fall into ends up in it himself

It's fascinating to see how many Christians insist on what is "truth" and how divergent those truths are.
He who says he knows, does not

So in other words People who say “these are the facts,” or “this is the truth,” Or even “here is the proof,” you may reliably dismiss out of hand imo; I even used to play a little game here, before you got here, where in any “proof” or “truth” that someone states from the Bible I can refute with some other scripture in the Bible.

Give it a try if you like, as long as were keeping it friendly; I love showing people how to do that, And it’s very easy now with all the tools we have at hand. It’s a great way to make enemies! :)
Isn't that kind of what you just did above?
Oh well I guess that is possible, I was raised to reason logically, And to speak in the Hegelian dialectic, so it’s easy for me to fall back into that; but if I made any definitive statements up there just let me know :)
bc i dont know
 
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Justadude

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imo Any interpretation that is not correct will not line up with some bit of scripture somewhere? Which is I guess why you can’t get many believers to engage at verses like No one has ever gone up to heaven

But then what the scripture you're using for analysis means is oftentimes a matter of interpretation, right? So it's turtles all the way down, eh?

Well I believe the kingdom of heaven is within you, and Gehenna is a place on earth...So in other words i guess “no”

He who digs a pit for others to fall into ends up in it himself

He who says he knows, does not

Thanks for clarifying.

So in other words People who say “these are the facts,” or “this is the truth,” Or even “here is the proof,” you may reliably dismiss out of hand imo; I even used to play a little game here, before you got here, where in any “proof” or “truth” that someone states from the Bible I can refute with some other scripture in the Bible.
LOL....I'm often amused by "who can quote the most scripture" battles among Christians.

Give it a try if you like, as long as were keeping it friendly; I love showing people how to do that, And it’s very easy now with all the tools we have at hand. It’s a great way to make enemies! :)
That's okay. Since I'm not a Christian, doing that sort of thing would basically amount to trolling.

Oh well I guess that is possible, I was raised to reason logically, And to speak in the Hegelian dialectic, so it’s easy for me to fall back into that; but if I made any definitive statements up there just let me know :)
bc i dont know
:)
 

bbyrd009

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But then what the scripture you're using for analysis means is oftentimes a matter of interpretation, right? So it's turtles all the way down, eh?
well, in my experience the hypocrisy is usually made evident way before any real truth is arrived at, and "many witnesses" are not that easily fooled i don't think. I'm not sure what a believer's justification against No one has ever gone up to heaven might be, but after all it doesnt exist in a vacuum, and many other vv verify it, and none--that i am aware of anyway--support the notion that anyone will be going anywhere special after they have died
no one knows where they go when they die
all go to the same place
you and your sons will be here with me

etc
 

Justadude

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well, in my experience the hypocrisy is usually made evident way before any real truth is arrived at, and "many witnesses" are not that easily fooled i don't think. I'm not sure what a believer's justification against No one has ever gone up to heaven might be, but after all it doesnt exist in a vacuum, and many other vv verify it, and none--that i am aware of anyway--support the notion that anyone will be going anywhere special after they have died
no one knows where they go when they die
all go to the same place
you and your sons will be here with me

etc
Seems like something you'll have to take up with your fellow believers. Have fun. :)
 

Helen

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ha well, i am not a believer tho :)
i gave all that up for faith

Agree.
I usually refer to "believers, and or believing believers" , big difference , of which there are not as many.
 
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