All believer that accept Christ have the holy spirit there fore all believers have a gift not all have the same gift.my conclusion is the gifts have been diversified as the body of Christ grew every believer has a gift from God and has the holy spirit we are promised at the baptism of acceptance and repentance in Christ.just as the gift of great miracles doesn't exist today there are millions of small miracles, The gift of great Prophets doesn't exist today, yet millions get bits of wisdom or dreams/visions, the gift of understanding/interpreting languages doesn't exist today, yet millions teach Gods word around the World in all languages, the gift of knowledge of Gods Word, isn't given as it was to the apostles, but millions can read the written Word and gain this knowledge,We are told that the gifts were given to preach the gospel around the World to start the church the body of the church went from a couple hundred to billions the same gifts are not necessary today for the same reason they were given. Yet they are spread through the body of believers in different forms. So I guess we just have disagree on this because until I see someone performing great miracles, prophets like the bible has, a healer that can walk into a Vet,or childrens hospital and cure them, a person suddenly be able to preach Gods Word in a language they didnt know yesterday,A person given the knowledge of all the Word without study, A person with wisdom of Solemon I am not going to believe the gifts are only given to a few.1 Cor 12. While we are all different we are all part of the same body, much as a hand or foot is a part of the same body. We are all at different levels of intelligence, ability and understanding. God's spirit leads us into all understanding Joh 16:13. Unity is achieved as we follow His spirit into the Truth.It MUST come through knowledge of the truth of God. Unity is what the apostels/disciples for the most part had I believe it was this unity of spirit in this small body of believers that concentrated the gifts to start the church as commaned by God. Today we have a church of many believers. Our part today is to obey God in all things and to willingly FOLLOW where His spirit leads us. We are to pray Thy will be done Mat 6:10.
Lets discuss the gifts one at a time.
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Kriss you have yet to show me scriptures stating any of the gifts have ceased.YOU have picked out the gifts that you have not seen with your eyes...and say they don't exist because you have never seen them. I will state this again in this thread..........1Cor.2:12-15 We teach not in the way in which philosophy is taught but in a way that the Spirit teaches us. We teach spiritual things spiritually. An unspiritual person is one who does not accept anything of the Spirit of God because he sees it all as nonsense. It is beyond his understanding because it can only be understood by means of the Spirit. A Spiritual man, however, is able to judge the value of everything.Spiritual things are beyond our knowledge-when something is beyond our knowledge, we usually condemn it, criticize it, ignore it or write it off as unimportant.show me where in the Bible it says the manifestation of the Spirit is only for the starting the church and then it ends! Show me where tongues were given to spread the gospel. You say this because you can not understand tongues, because of unbelief. You say tongues are a language...I agree.You say it is not an unknown language...I agree-somewhere out there in all the languages it exist. ( I will add that it says that the speaker does not understand what he says 1 cor. 14)
I have showed you so many times I have lost count you just refuse to see it Mark 16:15 "And He said unto them, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."The gospel of Jesus Christ, His death, burial, and resurrection is to be preached to every one of God's creation: To every race, peoples, and tongues of the earth. There are many language barriers as these disciples scattered throughout the earth to preach the gospel to every race and tongue. So how can you tell them of this gospel, if you cannot speak the language? Jesus instructions were to go to all the world and preach the gospel.It means that somebody is going to have to learn those languages that the other people of the earth speak, and learn to relate this gospel with understanding. This is the "great commission" that Jesus gave to us.Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned [condemned]."We are to follow in Christ's footsteps, and in that He was baptized, so should we be baptized. Many wonder if one is not baptized, does that mean that they are not saved? The foremost requirement of Salvation is ones Faith that allows him to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that He lived the perfect life, then suffered as the Scriptures prophesied and taught He did; then died on the cross for our sins, and rose the third day, as the Scriptures said that He would.It is true that not everyone ends up in heaven equal. They will be there equal as far as God's love is concerned, but some will be very wealthy, while others very poor by heavenly standards. Remember my friend, there is only one thing that you can take with you, and that is your righteous acts, your works. Many find this difficult to believe, even when Jesus told us.Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;""The signs" are those thing that make it obvious that the Holy Spirit is with that individual. You either have Christ in you or you don't, if you have Christ in you, then His Spirit, the Holy Spirit is there also. It is just that simple. The signs are all those things that allow us to understand completely that tis person is a believer. Those things that they do will be done only in Jesus name, for Jesus gets all the glory of any of their works that they do. The Christian knows that what ever God allows them to do, He has given them to the gift to accomplish that work. Whether preaching or teaching, playing an instrument, or football, or riding in a wheelchair and praying and witnessing to others. The "new tongues" is not "unknown tongues", but new languages, teaching and preaching so that what you say will be understood completely.If you take the truth to the entire world, you will either learn the language with understanding of the country that you will teach in, or they simply will not understand you. The disciples and those that are going out to teach the gospel are going to have to learn those languages, or they are going to have to take an interpreter with them. If the people don't understand what your saying, they won't even know when to say Amen.I have also showed you and showed you that the Word tongues means the natural language of men so that the gospel could be preached around the World. So unless you are preaching the gospel around the World you dont have the gift of tounges thats the Word. I know you wont see this and thats fine but Im moving onEven if think you think you have a gift of some tounge it is called lowly gift and its of little importance.
you have shown me scriptures that say and preach the gospel...I agree we are told to preach. But no where in scriptures does it say that tongues were given for this purpose.That said you still have not proved with scriptures that the two are tied together. You quote a scripture and add to it.You avoided the question about....show me where in the Bible it says the manifestation of the Spirit is only for the starting the church and then it ends! Nowhere....in the examples of tongues.... in the Bible ...does it say they were preaching. It was not used to preach!
(setfree;50877)
you have shown me scriptures that say and preach the gospel...I agree we are told to preach. But no where in scriptures does it say that tongues were given for this purpose.That said you still have not proved with scriptures that the two are tied together. You quote a scripture and add to it.You avoided the question about....show me where in the Bible it says the manifestation of the Spirit is only for the starting the church and then it ends! Nowhere....in the examples of tongues.... in the Bible ...does it say they were preaching. It was not used to preach!
Is speaking English not a language to preach the gospel?
you have shown me scriptures that say and preach the gospel...I agree we are told to preach. But no where in scriptures does it say that tongues were given for this purpose.That said you still have not proved with scriptures that the two are tied together. You quote a scripture and add to it.You avoided the question about....show me where in the Bible it says the manifestation of the Spirit is only for the starting the church and then it ends! Nowhere....in the examples of tongues.... in the Bible ...does it say they were preaching. It was not used to preach!
Is speaking English not a language to preach the gospel?
(setfree;50877)
you have shown me scriptures that say and preach the gospel...I agree we are told to preach. But no where in scriptures does it say that tongues were given for this purpose.That said you still have not proved with scriptures that the two are tied together. You quote a scripture and add to it.You avoided the question about....show me where in the Bible it says the manifestation of the Spirit is only for the starting the church and then it ends! Nowhere....in the examples of tongues.... in the Bible ...does it say they were preaching. It was not used to preach!
Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;""The signs" are those thing that make it obvious that the Holy Spirit is with that individual. You either have Christ in you or you don't, if you have Christ in you, then His Spirit, the Holy Spirit is there also. It is just that simple. The signs are all those things that allow us to understand completely that tis person is a believer. Those things that they do will be done only in Jesus name, for Jesus gets all the glory of any of their works that they do. The Christian knows that what ever God allows them to do, He has given them to the gift to accomplish that work. Whether preaching or teaching, playing an instrument, or football, or riding in a wheelchair and praying and witnessing to others. The "new tongues" is not "unknown tongues", but new languages, teaching and preaching so that what you say will be understood completely.Same word same tongues that were the languages of men to preach the gospel around world same as the gifts in 1 Cor. that were needed to to so If you do not see this I don't know what to tell you except your in denial
you have shown me scriptures that say and preach the gospel...I agree we are told to preach. But no where in scriptures does it say that tongues were given for this purpose.That said you still have not proved with scriptures that the two are tied together. You quote a scripture and add to it.You avoided the question about....show me where in the Bible it says the manifestation of the Spirit is only for the starting the church and then it ends! Nowhere....in the examples of tongues.... in the Bible ...does it say they were preaching. It was not used to preach!
Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;""The signs" are those thing that make it obvious that the Holy Spirit is with that individual. You either have Christ in you or you don't, if you have Christ in you, then His Spirit, the Holy Spirit is there also. It is just that simple. The signs are all those things that allow us to understand completely that tis person is a believer. Those things that they do will be done only in Jesus name, for Jesus gets all the glory of any of their works that they do. The Christian knows that what ever God allows them to do, He has given them to the gift to accomplish that work. Whether preaching or teaching, playing an instrument, or football, or riding in a wheelchair and praying and witnessing to others. The "new tongues" is not "unknown tongues", but new languages, teaching and preaching so that what you say will be understood completely.Same word same tongues that were the languages of men to preach the gospel around world same as the gifts in 1 Cor. that were needed to to so If you do not see this I don't know what to tell you except your in denial
I do not deny that tongues is a known language (somewhere), It is just not known to the person speaking. This is why UNKNOWN is added to the KJV....because it is unknown to the person speaking. You keep insinuating that I believe tongues is unknown in the world. I do not believe that the manifestation of tongues(this can only be a supernatural manifestation through the Holy Spirit)can be a learned thing...you do not learn tongues, the language is already in you by the Holy Spirit. Some people have to learn to release what is in them...this goes for all the manifestations.Now to the tongues for preaching....................................In Acts 2:11 it says speak in our tongues (languages)the wonderful works of God. These disciples were praising God...speaking to God. No where does it say they were preaching! Peter preached in vs 14!Acts 10:45-46 says that the Holy Ghost was poured out on the Gentiles JUST LIKE IT WAS ON THEM...what did they do? magnified God in tongues (languages..does not say what language here) But they were not preaching to the circumcised...Peter again was preaching when the Holy Ghost fell on them. This is the second example given with tongues where they were not spreading the gospel with tongues. TONGUES WERE GIVEN TO THOSE THAT BELIEVED (MARK 16)FOR A SIGN BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED.Those at Pentecost were also believers and the sign...speaking new tongues followed them. The third time tongues is mentioned is in Acts 19:6 After Paul laid hands on them...they spake with tongues AND prophesied. They did both here, but did not preach to anyone in tongues....It does not say they prophesied with tongues it says they manifested two......tongues AND prophesy.So your statement....Same word same tongues that were the languages of men to preach the gospel around world same as the gifts in 1 Cor. that were needed to to so If you do not see this I don't know what to tell you except your in denial....can be reversed and I say with scriptures that tongues were not for preaching...You keep repeating yourself to me about....tongues is a language. Why do you keep trying to push this on me when I already believe it? So if you do not see this after I offered scripture I do not know what to tell you except you are in denial!!
(thesuperjag;50879)
Is speaking English not a language to preach the gospel?
Not to repeat my self from the above post...Speaking in English is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. I speak in English, this is a known language to me...therefore it is not the manifestation (supernatural) of the Holy Spirit. Yes we have to learn different languages to preach in different nations....THIS IS NOT TONGUES! If tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit...You have to have the SPirit first. There are a lot of unbelievers that learn a different language...Is this the manifestion of the Holy Spirit? Common sense, if you will allow the Spirit to lead you into truth.There are too many condradictions in the Bible if you see the manifestation of tongues as a learned language...The Bible plainly says that the one speaking tongues does not understand what he is speaking even though he speaks to God well 1 Cor. 14:2-17....For thou verily givest thanks WELL, but the other is not edified. Without an interpretation the others can not understand your prayers.
Is speaking English not a language to preach the gospel?
Not to repeat my self from the above post...Speaking in English is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. I speak in English, this is a known language to me...therefore it is not the manifestation (supernatural) of the Holy Spirit. Yes we have to learn different languages to preach in different nations....THIS IS NOT TONGUES! If tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit...You have to have the SPirit first. There are a lot of unbelievers that learn a different language...Is this the manifestion of the Holy Spirit? Common sense, if you will allow the Spirit to lead you into truth.There are too many condradictions in the Bible if you see the manifestation of tongues as a learned language...The Bible plainly says that the one speaking tongues does not understand what he is speaking even though he speaks to God well 1 Cor. 14:2-17....For thou verily givest thanks WELL, but the other is not edified. Without an interpretation the others can not understand your prayers.
(setfree;50923)
Not to repeat my self from the above post...Speaking in English is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. I speak in English, this is a known language to me...therefore it is not the manifestation (supernatural) of the Holy Spirit. Yes we have to learn different languages to preach in different nations....THIS IS NOT TONGUES! If tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit...You have to have the SPirit first. There are a lot of unbelievers that learn a different language...Is this the manifestion of the Holy Spirit? Common sense, if you will allow the Spirit to lead you into truth.There are too many condradictions in the Bible if you see the manifestation of tongues as a learned language...The Bible plainly says that the one speaking tongues does not understand what he is speaking even though he speaks to God well 1 Cor. 14:2-17....For thou verily givest thanks WELL, but the other is not edified. Without an interpretation the others can not understand your prayers.
Obviously if you want to believe in junk, your choice...but the word tongue in the greek means languages. And there is no such thing as an unknown tongue.The language is known to the person who speaks it as well... English is a manifest of the Holy Spirit as well, because there are some people whose second language is English...(Acts 2:6, Acts 2:8, Acts 2:9-11)
Not to repeat my self from the above post...Speaking in English is not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. I speak in English, this is a known language to me...therefore it is not the manifestation (supernatural) of the Holy Spirit. Yes we have to learn different languages to preach in different nations....THIS IS NOT TONGUES! If tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit...You have to have the SPirit first. There are a lot of unbelievers that learn a different language...Is this the manifestion of the Holy Spirit? Common sense, if you will allow the Spirit to lead you into truth.There are too many condradictions in the Bible if you see the manifestation of tongues as a learned language...The Bible plainly says that the one speaking tongues does not understand what he is speaking even though he speaks to God well 1 Cor. 14:2-17....For thou verily givest thanks WELL, but the other is not edified. Without an interpretation the others can not understand your prayers.
Obviously if you want to believe in junk, your choice...but the word tongue in the greek means languages. And there is no such thing as an unknown tongue.The language is known to the person who speaks it as well... English is a manifest of the Holy Spirit as well, because there are some people whose second language is English...(Acts 2:6, Acts 2:8, Acts 2:9-11)
(thesuperjag;50929)
Obviously if you want to believe in junk, your choice...but the word tongue in the greek means languages. And there is no such thing as an unknown tongue.The language is known to the person who speaks it as well... English is a manifest of the Holy Spirit as well, because there are some people whose second language is English...(Acts 2:6, Acts 2:8, Acts 2:9-11)
Well if you want to call God's word junk, that is between God and yourself.thesuperjag, I gave scriptures in the post before. where are your scriptures? You say what I believe is junk but I showed you scriptures.If you would have read my post..I believe tongues is a KNOWN language. But the Bible is clear that those speaking in tongues do not understand with their mind what they are saying.God could manifest his Spirit through a person in English, but for me it would not be a manifestation...I know English. You mentioned that English as a second language is tongues is that correct?By the way do you believe the manifestation in 1 Cor. exist today?
Obviously if you want to believe in junk, your choice...but the word tongue in the greek means languages. And there is no such thing as an unknown tongue.The language is known to the person who speaks it as well... English is a manifest of the Holy Spirit as well, because there are some people whose second language is English...(Acts 2:6, Acts 2:8, Acts 2:9-11)
Well if you want to call God's word junk, that is between God and yourself.thesuperjag, I gave scriptures in the post before. where are your scriptures? You say what I believe is junk but I showed you scriptures.If you would have read my post..I believe tongues is a KNOWN language. But the Bible is clear that those speaking in tongues do not understand with their mind what they are saying.God could manifest his Spirit through a person in English, but for me it would not be a manifestation...I know English. You mentioned that English as a second language is tongues is that correct?By the way do you believe the manifestation in 1 Cor. exist today?
(setfree;50933)
(thesuperjag;50929)
Obviously if you want to believe in junk, your choice...but the word tongue in the greek means languages. And there is no such thing as an unknown tongue.The language is known to the person who speaks it as well... English is a manifest of the Holy Spirit as well, because there are some people whose second language is English...(Acts 2:6, Acts 2:8, Acts 2:9-11)
Well if you want to call God's word junk, that is between God and yourself.thesuperjag, I gave scriptures in the post before. where are your scriptures? You say what I believe is junk but I showed you scriptures.If you would have read my post..I believe tongues is a KNOWN language. But the Bible is clear that those speaking in tongues do not understand with their mind what they are saying.God could manifest his Spirit through a person in English, but for me it would not be a manifestation...I know English. You mentioned that English as a second language is tongues is that correct?By the way do you believe the manifestation in 1 Cor. exist today?Even a primary language is a tongue. Do I believe in what I Corinthians 14 says? Yes I do, not in a way modern people says, because I used to go to a Pentecostal church...People tend to mix I Corinthians 14 with Acts 2
(thesuperjag;50929)
Obviously if you want to believe in junk, your choice...but the word tongue in the greek means languages. And there is no such thing as an unknown tongue.The language is known to the person who speaks it as well... English is a manifest of the Holy Spirit as well, because there are some people whose second language is English...(Acts 2:6, Acts 2:8, Acts 2:9-11)
Well if you want to call God's word junk, that is between God and yourself.thesuperjag, I gave scriptures in the post before. where are your scriptures? You say what I believe is junk but I showed you scriptures.If you would have read my post..I believe tongues is a KNOWN language. But the Bible is clear that those speaking in tongues do not understand with their mind what they are saying.God could manifest his Spirit through a person in English, but for me it would not be a manifestation...I know English. You mentioned that English as a second language is tongues is that correct?By the way do you believe the manifestation in 1 Cor. exist today?Even a primary language is a tongue. Do I believe in what I Corinthians 14 says? Yes I do, not in a way modern people says, because I used to go to a Pentecostal church...People tend to mix I Corinthians 14 with Acts 2
(thesuperjag;50945)
Even a primary language is a tongue. Do I believe in what I Corinthians 14 says? Yes I do, not in a way modern people says, because I used to go to a Pentecostal church...People tend to mix I Corinthians 14 with Acts 2
So you are saying that Acts-tongues and Corinthians-tongues are different? You fail to answer this question before....You mentioned that English as a second language is tongues, is that correct?
Even a primary language is a tongue. Do I believe in what I Corinthians 14 says? Yes I do, not in a way modern people says, because I used to go to a Pentecostal church...People tend to mix I Corinthians 14 with Acts 2
So you are saying that Acts-tongues and Corinthians-tongues are different? You fail to answer this question before....You mentioned that English as a second language is tongues, is that correct?
(setfree;50954)
So you are saying that Acts-tongues and Corinthians-tongues are different? You fail to answer this question before....You mentioned that English as a second language is tongues, is that correct?
Yes I did mention English as a second language is tongue, because there are some people in this forum where English is their second language. And I also mention that even the primary (First) tongue is a language.And yes, the one in Acts 2 are completely different than the one in I Corinthians 14
So you are saying that Acts-tongues and Corinthians-tongues are different? You fail to answer this question before....You mentioned that English as a second language is tongues, is that correct?
Yes I did mention English as a second language is tongue, because there are some people in this forum where English is their second language. And I also mention that even the primary (First) tongue is a language.And yes, the one in Acts 2 are completely different than the one in I Corinthians 14
(thesuperjag;50960)
Yes I did mention English as a second language is tongue, because there are some people in this forum where English is their second language. And I also mention that even the primary (First) tongue is a language.And yes, the one in Acts 2 are completely different than the one in I Corinthians 14
Let me make myself clear, because I believe there is a misunderstaing on the subject of tongues.I believe that the greek word for tongues is language..This we agree.Where we seem to disagree or misunderstand is that just because you can speak in several languages...this is not tongues, as in the manifestation of the Spirit. Do you follow what I am saying?
Yes I did mention English as a second language is tongue, because there are some people in this forum where English is their second language. And I also mention that even the primary (First) tongue is a language.And yes, the one in Acts 2 are completely different than the one in I Corinthians 14
Let me make myself clear, because I believe there is a misunderstaing on the subject of tongues.I believe that the greek word for tongues is language..This we agree.Where we seem to disagree or misunderstand is that just because you can speak in several languages...this is not tongues, as in the manifestation of the Spirit. Do you follow what I am saying?
You are correct set free but neither is speaking unknown not understood babbel and calling it a language, a language has rules it can be interpted, it is a natural language of men spoken in any certain countryThis is the defination of the Word.Just by making sounds and calling them a language is not the from the holy spirit either. Tongues was given to preach/prophesise Gods Word around the World.Do you think theres anything else in the bible to learn besides this ?????????As scripture says, even if you think you have this gift, it is said to be a lowly giftyou have been on this for months. And the answers are always the same.Please can we move on.
Kriss, I have just embraced these truths in the last year. I have so much to learn! I was grounded in the work of Christ on the cross and what had to take place in order that we could recieve life..but never was I taught about the work or manifestation of the Holy Spirit...how we could have life more abundantly...the power that we recieve by the Holy Spirit-God's Gift.I am not seeking the gifts more than my Savior, I love my Lord more than ever...the more I learn of Him...the more I love Him. This is just one part of scripture I want to know. If I am wrong, I want to know that too.You keep saying tongues were for preaching, but this is what you say to understand it the way you were taught. The mentions of tongues, is not for preaching...Just because you say it does not make it so. You still have not tied in tongues and preaching in the word.The definition of Tongues is glossa- member of the body, an organ of speech. the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations.There are other greek words translated as tongues in other scriptures is ..dialektos-conversation, speech, discourse, language, the tongue or languraged peculiar to any people.Also in Mark 16 it says New tongues...New"Kainos" recently made, fresth, recent, unused, unworn, of a new kind, unprecedented, uncommon, unheard of.Tongues of the Holy Spirit is different than just learning a new language. Scriptures prove it? It also proves tongues purpose was to magnify, praise God-NOT TO PREACH. Everytime tongues is mentioned they were speaking to God, not preaching. Please if I am wrong SHOW ME!
Again you see what you want setfree New unheard of yes these were a small group of Jews from Jerusalem area. I repeat there was no world wide church a small group It is written they went to Asia, africa ect how many of these Jews that never traveled more than a few days from home ever heard these languages they would run across? They were new unheard of uncommon to the area Some were most likely even tribal. Speaking unknown babbel/languages/prayers no one could understand would have been a useless gift to start the church it would have served no purpose.And please do not give me the edify self argument as thats exactly what they were warned not to do. To Go into a place and preach the good news of Christ in a language the listener could not understand the only purpose that would serve is to make you feel good for giving a great sermon.But it would do nothing for the listeners. Who was the one the message was to be given to they wouldnt even understand Amen.
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