LET'S SEE IF JESUS WAS TALKING ABOUT THE RAPTURE OR HIS SECOND COMING WHEN HE SAID, "NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY NOR THE HOUR"
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ewq1938
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2:1 coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the fifth mention of Christ’s coming in the Thessalonian letters (cf. 1 Thess. 2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23; see note at 1 Thess. 2:19). The aspect of His particular coming in view here is identified by the next phrase “our gathering together,” which conveys the idea of all believers meeting together with the Lord Jesus, obviously referring to the Rapture of the church described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and John 14:1-3. Cf. Hebrews 10:25 for the only other use of this phrase in the NT. This was the event the Thessalonians were anticipating (cf. 1 Thess. 1:10; 3:13; 5:9).
The MacArthur Bible Commentary.
ewq1938
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Yes, the gathering is the rapture and look where Christ paced the rapture:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Theer was no gathering mentioned before this so there is no such thing as a pretrib gathering.
Ronald David Bruno
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After the tribulation of THOSE DAYS doesn't mean it's over when He arrives. He arrives after the fires from warring nations attacking Israel fill the skies with smoke that block out the sun, moon and stars. As you can parallel this event in Revelation with the 6th Seal, even if the trumpets are blown quickly, we are just in the Middle _ closer to the end of the GT, but the wrath of God in the Seven Bowls are released. - that takes time! Let's say six trumpets were blown rapidly and devastation accumulates and He comes at the 7th, still _ it's not over yet. Armageddon is not over in one day. Chapters 15 and 16 take up some time ... so post Trib is wrong too.
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amigo de christo
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There is a serious problem in the title of this post he wrote . The rapture IS THE SECOND COMING .
WHERIN GOD shall take the saints AS HE DELIVERS the wrath upon the beast , fp , and the ungodly who worshipped such .
THE EVENT is A ONE TIME EVENT . both paul , peter , and CHRIST himself proves this .
JESUS SECOND COMING dont occur after the rapture nor the rapture before HIS second coming
ITS THE SAME EVENT . Read closely in second thess first chapter and in second peter
and even in revelation .
Notice anytime the WRATH OF GOD is mentioned , it comes not against the saints
but against the WICKED who worshipped the dragon , beast and image of said beast .
THE beast , HE cometh against the SAINTS . the SAINTS . ME thinks many have went down the wrong road .
VCO
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Almost all of evangelicals are Pre-Trib believers, every Church I have been involved with, BELIEVE and TEACH Pretrib.
We moved a lot when we were younger. Almost always to small towns, so I had to make sure they were also Pretrib.
Dallas Theological Seminary teaches Pretrib, so does the Masters Seminary, so does Moody Bible Institute, several Baptist Colleges also teach Pretrib. As far as I am concerned, that is the Core of Christian Colleges in the USA.
Do you see that you are just talking about people and organizations that are not biblical authority?
I provided you with scripture so instead of just making statements why don’t you address the scriptures I provided how do you explain revelation 7:9-17?
By the way choosing a church on the stance of none essential doctrine is not a good way to decide to attend or not what matters is their belief in who Jesus is
Many Christians and churches believe as I do because they believe what the bible says in Revelation 7
Revelation 7:9 & 13-14
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
VCO
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The Raptured CHURCH are in white robes, and Tribulation Saints, and Perhaps even Old Testament Saints too, as well as Angels. White Robes symbolizes Holy Ones, we inherit Christ's Holiness. Is Tribulation BEHEADED Saints, Part of Church-age Saint. I will let Christ make that Call.
You do know that the WORD "Church" was added to the BIBLE about 300 AD. Here is what Christ called us:
Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
Oh my, the SAME THING AS THE OLD TESTAMENT ASSEMBLY. I think they did us a great injustice by added the word CHURCH. He considered those who BELIEVED GOD WOULD SEND A MESSIAH, the Same as those who DID BELIEVE GOD SEND THE MESSIAH, the absolute SAME:
John 10:16-17 (HCSB)
16 But I have other sheep (the Church Assembly) that are not of this fold (Last of the Old Testament Assembly); I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then (at the Rapture) there will be one flock, one shepherd.
17 This is why the Father loves Me, because I am laying down My life so I may take it up again.
Interesting there have been approximate 24 Generations since Church. IF HE chose one Elder in each generation to be our elder, perhaps Billy Graham would be our Elder. The white robes most likely would be HIS ASSEMBLY, and here is the Proof:
Revelation 4:4 (HCSB)
4 Around that throne were 24 thrones, and on the thrones sat 24 elders dressed in white clothes, with gold crowns on their heads.
A very Clear indication that the RAPTURE happened PRIOR TO THIS VERSE. You have to have a Posterior to SIT ON IT, that is my opinion. And the disembodied Tribulation Saints do not appear to be at REST!
Revelation 7:14-17 (HCSB)
14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His sanctuary. The One seated on the throne will shelter them:
16 They will no longer hunger; they will no longer thirst; the sun will no longer strike them, nor will any heat.
17 For the Lamb who is at the center of the throne will shepherd them; He will guide them to springs of living waters, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.
ewq1938
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You know we are finished here. No disrespect intended, but the only thing that is muddy, is between you ears, as you are not even listening to me. No, I do not expect you to believe as I do, but I thought you would listen.
I told you we go to the Wedding in Heaven, as a group. I said the Dead in Christ Rise first, and that includes the old testament ASSEMBLY too. It never was WORKS, that save us, NOT even Old Testament ASSEMBLY, but Believe and Trust in the Messiah. Then New Testament ASSEMBLY dead in Christ, then New Testament Living, and I am still not sure about the Beheaded Tribulations Saints, as they seem to have a different function in heaven, but they could be part of the Church-age ASSEMBLY. Whatever HE SAYS GOES.
What I do know according to Matthew Chapter 7, their will be a LOT FEWER that think they are really Christians, will be Left Behind.
Matthew 7:13-23 (HCSB)
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
15 “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. {That is not works righteousness, it is those who willingly, out of pure LOVE, give control of their lives to JESUS.}
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
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No Pre-TB
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Oh boy. Where do I begin…
The word for church never appears from Rev 4:1 on therefore the church is absent.
Let me use your own logic.
The word for church never appears in:
Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, Jude and not till Ch. 16 of Romans.
Therefore, the church is absent from all that scripture right?
No Pre-TB
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No Pre-TB
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When are the heavens no more according to Pre-TB?
Look at Job 14:12
Nothing has been removed on a Pre-TB timeline making it impossible to be resurrected at that time.
Look at Job 14:12
Nothing has been removed on a Pre-TB timeline making it impossible to be resurrected at that time.
No Pre-TB
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Rev 5:8
How about this one. If the church is in heaven, how do the 4 living beasts and 24 elders hold vials full of the prayers of the saints?
If the church is not on earth, why are they holding their own prayers?
They are not tribulation Saint prayers (according to Pre-TB) because the first seal wasn’t opened yet when this is shown.
How about this one. If the church is in heaven, how do the 4 living beasts and 24 elders hold vials full of the prayers of the saints?
If the church is not on earth, why are they holding their own prayers?
They are not tribulation Saint prayers (according to Pre-TB) because the first seal wasn’t opened yet when this is shown.
No Pre-TB
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Rev 5:12
How are we in heaven (as elders in Rev 4) before Christ is rewarded for overcoming all things on the cross?
How are we in heaven (as elders in Rev 4) before Christ is rewarded for overcoming all things on the cross?
VCO
Active Member
You are TOTALLY CONFUSED.
According to the BIBLE there are 3 heavens.
The Birds Fly through the heavens = Atmosphere.
The Stars of the Heavens = Universe.
The Eternal Dwelling Place of GOD = Where the Wedding of the Lamb Takes Place.
VCO
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The word CHURCH, was inserted into the BIBLE about 300 A.D. Prior to that it only used ASSEMBLY.
Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
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