VCO
Active Member
You are putting your hope in a man and I am showing you direct word’s from the bible who is the authority?
No disrespect to John Mcarthur he is a great man but great men are men and are wrong at times
NOT THIS TIME.
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You are putting your hope in a man and I am showing you direct word’s from the bible who is the authority?
No disrespect to John Mcarthur he is a great man but great men are men and are wrong at times
NOT THIS TIME.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
What is Paul speaking of here? What is this gathering?
View attachment 31753
2:1 coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is the fifth mention of Christ’s coming in the Thessalonian letters (cf. 1 Thess. 2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23; see note at 1 Thess. 2:19). The aspect of His particular coming in view here is identified by the next phrase “our gathering together,” which conveys the idea of all believers meeting together with the Lord Jesus, obviously referring to the Rapture of the church described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and John 14:1-3. Cf. Hebrews 10:25 for the only other use of this phrase in the NT. This was the event the Thessalonians were anticipating (cf. 1 Thess. 1:10; 3:13; 5:9).
The MacArthur Bible Commentary.
After the tribulation of THOSE DAYS doesn't mean it's over when He arrives. He arrives after the fires from warring nations attacking Israel fill the skies with smoke that block out the sun, moon and stars. As you can parallel this event in Revelation with the 6th Seal, even if the trumpets are blown quickly, we are just in the Middle _ closer to the end of the GT, but the wrath of God in the Seven Bowls are released. - that takes time! Let's say six trumpets were blown rapidly and devastation accumulates and He comes at the 7th, still _ it's not over yet. Armageddon is not over in one day. Chapters 15 and 16 take up some time ... so post Trib is wrong too.LET'S SEE IF JESUS WAS TALKING ABOUT THE RAPTURE OR HIS SECOND COMING WHEN HE SAID, "NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY NOR THE HOUR"
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Did you notice that verse 29 starts out by Jesus saying, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days."
Jesus is now talking about what events will take place immediately after the tribulation or at the end of the seven-year Tribulation.
THERE IS ONLY ONE QUESTION TO BE ASKED THAT WILL SETTLE THE NO ONE KNOWS DEBATE FOREVER
All will agree that verse 30 comes after verse 29 so that means whatever is said in verse 30 takes place immediately after the Tribulation.
Verse 30 describes the sign of the Son of Man appearing in the heavens.
Q- So here is our big question, Who sees Jesus arriving in the heavens, the world or the Saints?
If it's the entire world that sees Jesus' arrival then It's Jesus's Second Coming but if it's the Saints that see Jesus arrival then it's the Rapture.
OK, LET'S read verse 30 to see if it's the Rapture that no one knows the day or the hour or is it Christ's Second Coming.
V: 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
It's settled, it's the entire world that sees Jesus' arrival so it must be His Second Coming and that's just what He said in verse 29, "immediately after the Tribulation of those days."
So, if verse 30 takes place immediately after the Tribulation of those days then so does verse 31 because everything that Jesus describes after verse 29 He says is taking place after the Tribulation. So, let's read the next event that will take place immediately after the Tribulation of those days.
Oh, look there is a rapture taking place in verse 31.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This is where all my post-Tribulation friends say, "See I told you so that the Rapture takes place at the end of the Tribulation."
Let me show you why it is not remotely possible that the Rapture takes place at the end of the seven-year Tribulation.
So what's going on here?
Let's find out.
Q-What was Jesus's disciples original question at the beginning of Matthew 24?
A- “What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” ( Matthew 24:3).
Now let Jesus explain what this rapture is that we read about in verse 31 of Matthew 24 in Matthew 13.
MATTHEW 13
JESUS SPEAKING
37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. 42 And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
There is the explanation for Matthew 24:31 rapture given by Jesus.
There is going to be another final separation between the sheep and the goats or the weeds from the wheat at the end of the age or immediately after the tribulation of those days.
Now you know that when Jesus said no one knows the day nor the hour He was referring to His Second Coming not the Rapture.
MATTHEW 24:36 also comes after verse 29 where Jesus started to tell us what events will take place immediately after the Tribulation of those days and look at what verse 36 says.
JESUS SPEAKING
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
CONCLUSION:
Jesus did not say no one can know when the Rapture will take place and that phrase is not even once found in all of Matthew 24.
Saints, it's time to look for when the Rapture will take place.
Join me as I expose the lie of the Devil that no one can know when the Rapture will take place.
I am right now posting messages that clearly show that there are many prophets in the bible that know when the Rapture will take place.
And like I have said many times, is it a mere coincidence that every one of these prophets including Jesus got the exact same timeline for the Rapture? Not one of them gave a different timeline for the Rapture.
So far I have shown that the Prophets Daniel and Paul knew when the Rapture will take place and now I will show you three times Jesus Himself telling us when the Rapture will take place. It's all in the bible.
There is another guy on this forum that has been desperately trying to tell you how close we are to the Tribulation and the Rapture but it would seem that you guys are not listening to him. Just consider what he is saying might be the truth and give him a good listen too.
Eliyahoo
NOT THIS TIME.
There is a serious problem in the title of this post he wrote . The rapture IS THE SECOND COMING .Did you notice that Verse 30 describes the sign of the Son of Man appearing in the heavens and not the son of man appearing in the heavens?
The sign of the son of man was Jerusalem being destroyed when Jesus said that It would be destroyed within that generation. This proved to them that Jesus was God and He judged Israel for rejecting and killing Him.
Signs in the sun moon stars and Coming on the clouds was a sign of judgement.
Yes this time I proved that the church made up from many nations are killed in the tribulation in the scriptures and you choose to believe John Macarther instead. Reread it i'm using your words so yes his time.
View attachment 31780
Almost all of evangelicals are Pre-Trib believers, every Church I have been involved with, BELIEVE and TEACH Pretrib.
We moved a lot when we were younger. Almost always to small towns, so I had to make sure they were also Pretrib.
Dallas Theological Seminary teaches Pretrib, so does the Masters Seminary, so does Moody Bible Institute, several Baptist Colleges also teach Pretrib. As far as I am concerned, that is the Core of Christian Colleges in the USA.
Good one2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
What is Paul speaking of here? What is this gathering?
Do you see that you are just talking about people and organizations that are not biblical authority?
I provided you with scripture so instead of just making statements why don’t you address the scriptures I provided how do you explain revelation 7:9-17?
By the way choosing a church on the stance of none essential doctrine is not a good way to decide to attend or not what matters is their belief in who Jesus is
Many Christians and churches believe as I do because they believe what the bible says in Revelation 7
Revelation 7:9 & 13-14
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 4:4 (HCSB)
4 Around that throne were 24 thrones, and on the thrones sat 24 elders dressed in white clothes, with gold crowns on their heads.
A very Clear indication that the RAPTURE happened PRIOR TO THIS VERSE.
You have to have a Posterior to SIT ON IT, that is my opinion.
As clear as mud. Do you think the rapture involved only 24 humans? Are these 24 even humans?
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
God the Father is sitting on his throne.
Oh boy. Where do I begin…View attachment 31743
That supports a PRE-TRIB RAPTURE, we are gone before TRIBULATION even starts. He is dealing with happens to Israel after we are gone.
THE WORD CHURCH NEVER APPEARS FROM REV. 4:1 ON.
WHY ? ? ?
We are in HEAVEN for the Wedding of the LAMB.
When are the heavens no more according to Pre-TB?
Look at Job 14:12
Nothing has been removed on a Pre-TB timeline making it impossible to be resurrected at that time.
Oh boy. Where do I begin…
The word for church never appears from Rev 4:1 on therefore the church is absent.
Let me use your own logic.
The word for church never appears in:
Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, Jude and not till Ch. 16 of Romans.
Therefore, the church is absent from all that scripture right?