Letter of the Law vs. Spirit of the Law

[stunnedbygrace]

A person can sin according to another's faith but not sin in their faith....
Romans 14 (KJV)

I’ve never heard it put that way! Very good.

 

[bluedragon]

In my younger days ....I drove 18 wheels to the west of the Mississippi. At the time the speed limit was 55 nationwide. I was on open road and making up time, doing 68. I saw it on the dash when I passed the Sate Trooper headed in the other direction. I pulled over, because I knew I was caught. Got my paperwork and was standing at the back of the truck when he drove up, lights on. I handed him everything, everything in order, he looked at me and said "I don't have the heart to write you a ticket. I've never had anyone do that before. Let's walk around the truck once, you agree to do 55 the rest of the day and we go about our business. Shook hands and went on our way.

Don't smooth talk them, don't get angry ....be professional and things will not become dramatic. It's the cop with a sense of humor that I enjoy.

Got stopped in Alabama. 62 in a 55 .....unmarked car. The guy had the best personality imaginable. He said "I never write a ticket lower than10 miles above the speed limit." I shot back "Give me a second, I'll go back a mile and will do 70 when I come through and make your day perfect." We were both laughing. Then I asked .... "Your car is gray and I just passed a green car unmarked as well." "That's my partner. How do you know?" "If I can get out." I walked to the front and showed him what I see whenever an unmarked unit comes toward me." "We have to do a better job of hiding those."

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I agree that our thoughts can lead us down paths that get us into trouble, but I think it's harmful to be too technical. I think there are actual lines we must cross before we've committed a sin.

Is this like…temptation is not a sin, it’s sinking down into it that’s sin?
For example, I begin to worry about my temporal needs. I can either sink down into that and let the worry carry me away or I can say, help, my feet are slipping, no, God knows what I have need of and has promised He will see to this.

 

[Bob Estey]

A person can sin according to another's faith but not sin in their faith....
Romans 14 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹³ Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
¹⁴ I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
¹⁵ But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
¹⁶ Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
¹⁷ For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
¹⁸ For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
¹⁹ Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
²⁰ For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

²¹ It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

²² Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
²³ And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Romans is so simple to understand...and though this is pertaining to eating certain meats it can apply to anything that enters a man's mouth....
The scriptures above tells Do you have the faith to do this thing you are about to allow?
If you DO then have it to yourself before God.
Don't go flaunting in the face of another who would be offended by it.

So back to your question....how can a person sin and be convinced they didn't sin.
Guess it depends on if he has faith in what he does as acceptable to God.

Now if you are referring to the 10 Commandments and the 2 Commandments from Jesus then it could have many reasons as to how someone can sin and are convinced they haven't...
Spiritual growth
False teaching/doctrine
Ignorant of the truth
Lack or wisdom, knowledge and understanding
Cultural practices
On and on

I think religion is a lot simpler than some people want it to be. If we do things God's way, I think things turn out well.

 

[Bob Estey]

Is this like…temptation is not a sin, it’s sinking down into it that’s sin?
For example, I begin to worry about my temporal needs. I can either sink down into that and let the worry carry me away or I can say, help, my feet are slipping, no, God knows what I have need of and has promised He will see to this.

When I think of sin, I think of lust, or pride, or substance abuse, etc. I don't think we are guilty of sin until we commit the act.

But I want to address what you said about worrying, because I'm at a spot in my life where this is very important. I'm beginning to believe faith might be the most important thing of all. We need to trust God. If we don't, then we start doing things we regret later. God will take care of us.

 

[quietthinker]

When I think of sin, I think of lust, or pride, or substance abuse, etc. I don't think we are guilty of sin until we commit the act.

But I want to address what you said about worrying, because I'm at a spot in my life where this is very important. I'm beginning to believe faith might be the most important thing of all. We need to trust God. If we don't, then we start doing things we regret later. God will take care of us.

Sin goes to the very thought process Bob.....besides, who of us are sufficiently self aware to be conscious of all our processes?

 

[Bob Estey]

Sin goes to the very thought process Bob.....besides, who of us are sufficiently self aware to be conscious of all our processes?

We'll have no lasting peace till we repent of all our sin, I don't think.

 

[quietthinker]

We'll have no lasting peace till we repent of all our sin, I don't think.

Repentance is a mindset Bob. I doubt whether any of us remember all our sins to repent of......a mindset as described in Romans 7.
If salvation was solely dependant on repenting of each individual sin.....right down to ones thinking, none of us would make it (who can remember all their sins).......however Romans 8:1 amazingly follows Romans 7 'there is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus'

If we continue with Paul's logic of Romans 5 and apply the same principle in the following chapters; the principle of 'as all are in Adam, so all are in Christ' then we can be confident that there is no condemnation as stated in Romans 8:1. Why? because of repentance? .....no, it is because all are in Christ.
I wonder if this is not acceptable to the older brother?

I understand this is hard for the 'older brother' of Jesus' Prodigal Son story to swallow. The 'older brother' feels like he deserves a superior deal than his profligate younger brother, however the Father according to the story loves them both.......equally.

And who is the 'older brother' if it is not those already in the fold?....older!...get it?

'Our' personal peace then is not dependant on God's love for it is always there. It is dependant on how we understand God's love.

 

[Bob Estey]

Repentance is a mindset Bob. I doubt whether any of us remember all our sins to repent of......a mindset as described in Romans 7.
If salvation was solely dependant on repenting of each individual sin.....right down to ones thinking, none of us would make it (who can remember all their sins).......however Romans 8:1 amazingly follows Romans 7 'there is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus'

If we continue with Paul's logic of Romans 5 and apply the same principle in the following chapters; the principle of 'as all are in Adam, so all are in Christ' then we can be confident that there is no condemnation as stated in Romans 8:1. Why? because of repentance? .....no, it is because all are in Christ.
I wonder if this is not acceptable to the older brother?

I understand this is hard for the 'older brother' of Jesus' Prodigal Son story to swallow. The 'older brother' feels like he deserves a superior deal than his profligate younger brother, however the Father according to the story loves them both.......equally.

And who is the 'older brother' if it is not those already in the fold?....older!...get it?

'Our' personal peace then is not dependant on God's love for it is always there. It is dependant on how we understand God's love.

Repentance means we stop sinning.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

In my younger days ....I drove 18 wheels to the west of the Mississippi. At the time the speed limit was 55 nationwide. I was on open road and making up time, doing 68. I saw it on the dash when I passed the Sate Trooper headed in the other direction. I pulled over, because I knew I was caught. Got my paperwork and was standing at the back of the truck when he drove up, lights on. I handed him everything, everything in order, he looked at me and said "I don't have the heart to write you a ticket. I've never had anyone do that before. Let's walk around the truck once, you agree to do 55 the rest of the day and we go about our business. Shook hands and went on our way.

Don't smooth talk them, don't get angry ....be professional and things will not become dramatic. It's the cop with a sense of humor that I enjoy.

Got stopped in Alabama. 62 in a 55 .....unmarked car. The guy had the best personality imaginable. He said "I never write a ticket lower than10 miles above the speed limit." I shot back "Give me a second, I'll go back a mile and will do 70 when I come through and make your day perfect." We were both laughing. Then I asked .... "Your car is gray and I just passed a green car unmarked as well." "That's my partner. How do you know?" "If I can get out." I walked to the front and showed him what I see whenever an unmarked unit comes toward me." "We have to do a better job of hiding those."

Yes it's up to the discretion of the officer to make the call, well it was before we became a Socialist Nation in Australia, then things became the Letter of the Law ! such as Socialist do not care about reality, such is fixed like Hitler and Stalin types who are insane sub human drongos.

If one was exceeding the posted limit on the open highway we once had a sign that was a circle with a line through it ? tho the max speed in the State was 100KM/H but one could drive over that limit some what and cops would not give a cracker, but if a spot was an intersection etc you better take heed to the limit or you would be busted. and not to mention they would take note as to do you know that road well ? if you do not know the road your busted ! why because you are ignorant of that road. and other factors come into such as well, wet roads ! raining ! weather and all, what type of car truck etc tyres and condition, age etc were all evaluated, same with drink driving, one had to prove a test by walking the white line standing on one leg etc and if you did not pass that test the cops had the right to breath test one and not before ! not to mention the cop could not pull you up for no reason, as people once did have rights you know.

We have a blood alc 0.05 limit regardless that the Socialist demanded, such is the ignorance of Socialist who set such limits that have nothing to do with reality at that point 0.05 as one who does not drink and as to the regards to one who does drink is a hell of a big difference, but with Socialist everyone is classed as the same ? so it goes to the lowest denominator and that's the end of the subject for a Socialist. As they have no regard for reality or the truth or facts, they will gloss over all such with stupid Nazi like remarks wanting to dominate over you like an idiot moron would want to do. And I would say no go take a hike I do not need that type of ignorance lording over and dominating over me, for 0.05 No way ! I got busted for 0.05 when the Law just came in, it was 0.08 before that and 0.10 before that.

Now as to the setting a limit on anything one should be true due diligence in regards to the subject at hand. Just as different States have different Laws set from other States for good reason, like bridge weights etc and why QLD has narrow gauge railway tracks to NSW wide gauge.
So if one was driving in a built up area, City over the set limit that limit should be stricter than out on a open road out in the sticks.

I have driven trucks and cars that were a handful to drive at 100KM/H out right dangerous at that speed and my ass was off the seat half the time hanging on to the wheel, but that's all fine as to the Law. not to mention I would rather drive my car a 200KM/H on that road any day such was much more safe by far regardless.

So it all comes down to that the majority do not have a clue about anything in depth much at all and the Socialist work to take advantage of everyone, so as to dominate over all like a mongrel dog, as the lowest denominator is king of the dun heap.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

When I think of sin, I think of lust, or pride, or substance abuse, etc. I don't think we are guilty of sin until we commit the act

I see it a different way.
Romans 1 ends with this:
29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. 31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. 32 They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

Romans 2 starts with this: 2 You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things. 2 And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things. 3 Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God’s judgment when you do the same things?

Verse 16 explains it: 16 And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.

1 Timothy also sheds more light on this: 24 Remember, the sins of some people are obvious, leading them to certain judgment. But there are others whose sins will not be revealed until later. 25 In the same way, the good deeds of some people are obvious. And the good deeds done in secret will someday come to light.

 

[Bob Estey]

I see it a different way.
Romans 1 ends with this:
29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. 31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. 32 They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

Romans 2 starts with this: 2 You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things. 2 And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things. 3 Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God’s judgment when you do the same things?

Verse 16 explains it: 16 And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.

1 Timothy also sheds more light on this: 24 Remember, the sins of some people are obvious, leading them to certain judgment. But there are others whose sins will not be revealed until later. 25 In the same way, the good deeds of some people are obvious. And the good deeds done in secret will someday come to light.

Yes, but until you do something evil, you haven't done anything evil, it doesn't seem to me.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, but until you do something evil, you haven't done anything evil, it doesn't seem to me.

Anger in the heart is to have already murdered.

 

[Bob Estey]

Anger in the heart is to have already murdered.

I'd rather you be angry with me than murder me. By the way, which Bible verse are you referring to?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'd rather you be angry with me than murder me. By the way, which Bible verse are you referring to?

It’s Jesus’ words.
21 Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment
27 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

 

[Bob Estey]

It’s Jesus’ words.
21 Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment
27 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Read it again. Jesus is simply saying that if you are angry, you might be judged.

Jesus also says, "Judge not, that you not be judged" (Matthew 7:1 RSV), but if we don't judge, then murderers and rapists will run free. So the lesson to learn is: Don't judge without a good reason.

 

[quietthinker]

Repentance means we stop sinning.

and have you stopped?

 

[Brakelite]

Letter of the Law vs. Spirit of the Law

Versus?

 

[Bob Estey]

and have you stopped?

I try not to do the things I know are wrong.

Before we can stop sinning, we have to learn what sin is.

 

[quietthinker]

I try not to do the things I know are wrong.

Before we can stop sinning, we have to learn what sin is.

lol.....I know, my question puts you on the spot, however 'trying' does not qualify as stopped my friend.

For certain, repentance is a good thing....so continue which I'm sure you do. Repentance at least is a response to the Spirit telling us we are out of order......and we have this promise 'there is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus'

Isn't it wonderful that inspite of ourselves we have a glorious hope.