Limited Atonement VS Universal Atonement

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Mjh29

Well-Known Member
May 28, 2017
1,466
1,433
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Because they're not OBEDIENT.
We can be saved only through our COOPERATION with God's grace.
... so we are saved by the merit of our cooperation. Not completely by Christ's grace alone? Because if you have even an inkling of a hand in your own salvation, you were not saved by Christ alone... you have been saved by works, however small

... I feel like I've said this before...
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
From the perspective of the Holy Spirit also; for He is the author of Romans 8:30!
For I have gotten my perspective from Him.
Apparently NOT - because the Holy Spirit says that even those with an EPIGNOSIS of Christ can walk away from Him and LOSE it all (Heb. 10:26). There are several other verses that say this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
... so we are saved by the merit of our cooperation. Not completely by Christ's grace alone? Because if you have even an inkling of a hand in your own salvation, you were not saved by Christ alone... you have been saved by works, however small

... I feel like I've said this before...
We are saved by what Christ did on Calvary - ONLY if we respond to it and cooperate WITH it.
You cannot simply sit there and ignore Him and expect to be saved.
 

Mjh29

Well-Known Member
May 28, 2017
1,466
1,433
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We are saved by what Christ did on Calvary - ONLY if we respond to it and cooperate WITH it.
You cannot simply sit there and ignore Him and expect to be saved.
of course not. This is why He changes you. If your salvation is anything but the work of the spirit in you from start to finish, what you have is works righteousness, not salvation.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Nevertheless, Jesus taught that He would send the Holy Spirit to tell us the things that the disciples were unable to bear Him telling them when He was walking the earth (John 16:12-13)...so then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...and later that the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the only name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved...you have to deal with the fact that this is what the holy scripture says.
WRONG.

Here is a little hermeneutical rule:
When Jesus spoke to the CROWDS - he was instructing ALL of us.
When He instructed His Apostles and inner circle - He was instructing the LEADERS of His Church.

In John 16:12-15, when He told His Apostles that the Holy Spirit would guide them to ALL Truth - He was speaking of the CHURCH - NOT to the individual believer.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
of course not. This is why He changes you. If your salvation is anything but the work of the spirit in you from start to finish, what you have is works righteousness, not salvation.
WRONG.
If the response does NOT come from your OWN free will - then God simply created an army of robots to "love" Him.

The god YOU'VE invented is an insecure failure - unlike the God of Scripture.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Also, concerning "losing your salvation" you have to realize that salvation is a Person who will come and find you...

God loves us!

I am certainly not going to accuse Him of rape if He were to even tackle me in order to prevent me from walking over the edge of a cliff where there is lava burning over the edge. I would rather be like, "Wow! Thank You for saving my life!" as soon as my eyes were opened to the fact.
God doesn't "tackle" us into submission.
Like the Father to the Prodigal Son - he lets US come to OUR senses and FREELY come to Him.
 

Mjh29

Well-Known Member
May 28, 2017
1,466
1,433
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
WRONG.
If the response does NOT come from your OWN free will - then God simply created an army of robots to "love" Him.

The god YOU'VE invented is an insecure failure - unlike the God of Scripture.

Man had a free will in the Garden, then promptly used this freedom to choose Satan. Our wills are enslaved to Satan. [John 8:44] Free will does not exist today... we have a will that is in bondage to Satan. If the response were to come for yourself, you would be the one doing the salvation, not Christ. Sure, he made it possible, but YOU made it actually effective. This is called work's righteousness. God allows you to freely operate in His universe, we are not robots. We just all naturally hate God. I would expect someone who so vehemently defends one's ability to fall away from God to understand man's natural hatred for sin better than anyone. If man can walk away from God after seeing His wonderful beauty, what would ever possess you to think that this same fallen creature would of his own will ever submit in the first place?
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Apparently NOT - because the Holy Spirit says that even those with an EPIGNOSIS of Christ can walk away from Him and LOSE it all (Heb. 10:26). There are several other verses that say this.

Epignosis can still be defined as mere mental assent, if you look at the definition in Greek; and therefore there is a higher faith than mere epignosis: a heart faith that is unto righteousness and the enduring to the end (Romans 10:10, Hebrews 3:14).

WRONG.

Here is a little hermeneutical rule:
When Jesus spoke to the CROWDS - he was instructing ALL of us.
When He instructed His Apostles and inner circle - He was instructing the LEADERS of His Church.

In John 16:12-15, when He told His Apostles that the Holy Spirit would guide them to ALL Truth - He was speaking of the CHURCH - NOT to the individual believer.

Even if that is the case, Peter was of the group that Jesus was speaking of (in John 16:12-13, which is what is relevant), and we are looking at the fact that Peter told them (under inspiration of the Holy Spirit) to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins (Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39, Romans 8:30; Acts of the Apostles 4:10-12) rather than in titles.

Also, the church is composed of individual believers.

God doesn't "tackle" us into submission.

WRONG. ;)
 
Last edited:

Heb 13:8

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2016
2,040
331
83
USA
AGAIN - nothing can separate us from the love of God, but ourselves.
Notice that Romans 8 does NOT mention this - because, as I have shown - there are many other verses that say born again believers CAN walk away from Him.

Well, isn't the elect "ourselves" in Rom 8:33. The word "us" is mentioned 8 times in Rom 8:31-39. :rolleyes:
 

Heb 13:8

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2016
2,040
331
83
USA
No – Water Baptism is REQUIRED of us (Matt. 8:19, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet. 3:21).

There is NO indication that the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8 received the Holy Spirit until AFTER he was BAPTIZED.

It's required for the religious yes, because they don't have Holy Spirit Baptism. They haven't believed and confessed yet.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"nor any other creature." (Romans 8:39)

We are not only "creatures"; we are new creatures in Christ!

re #650.
 
Last edited:

Heb 13:8

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2016
2,040
331
83
USA
Spiritual Blindness
35When Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, He found the man and said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
36“Who is He, Sir?” he replied. “Tell me so that I may believe in Him.”
37“You have already seen Him,” Jesus answered. “He is the One speaking with you.”
38“Lord, I believe,” he said. And he worshiped Jesus.
39Then Jesus declared, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind may see and those who see may become blind.”
40Some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard this, and they asked Him, “Are we blind too?”
41“If you were blind,” Jesus replied, “you would not be guilty of sin. But since you claim you can see, your guilt remains.”
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Man had a free will in the Garden, then promptly used this freedom to choose Satan. Our wills are enslaved to Satan. [John 8:44] Free will does not exist today... we have a will that is in bondage to Satan. If the response were to come for yourself, you would be the one doing the salvation, not Christ. Sure, he made it possible, but YOU made it actually effective. This is called work's righteousness. God allows you to freely operate in His universe, we are not robots. We just all naturally hate God. I would expect someone who so vehemently defends one's ability to fall away from God to understand man's natural hatred for sin better than anyone. If man can walk away from God after seeing His wonderful beauty, what would ever possess you to think that this same fallen creature would of his own will ever submit in the first place?
I don't know where you learned this heresy - but man ALWAYS had a free will and STILL does.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Epignosis can still be defined as mere mental assent, if you look at the definition in Greek; and therefore there is a higher faith than mere epignosis: a heart faith that is unto righteousness and the enduring to the end (Romans 10:10, Hebrews 3:14).
I provided a laundry list of PROTESTANT - NOT Catholic definitions from PROTESTANT scholars. Not only did the agree that Epignosis if FAR more that what YOU claim - some went as far as to define it as "Christian Faith".
Even if that is the case, Peter was of the group that Jesus was speaking of (in John 16:12-13, which is what is relevant), and we are looking at the fact that Peter told them (under inspiration of the Holy Spirit) to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins (Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39, Romans 8:30; Acts of the Apostles 4:10-12) rather than in titles.

Also, the church is composed of individual believers.
Acts 2:38 has absolutely NOTHING to do with John 16:12-15, except for the fact that the Apostles were passing on what they had learned - because we don't have a record in the Gospels that Baptism was for the remission of sins.

This was something that was taught to the apostles by Christ - or they were LED to this truth by the Holy Spirit.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's required for the religious yes, because they don't have Holy Spirit Baptism. They haven't believed and confessed yet.
This is complete nonsense.
Why don't you address the Ethiopian Eunuch, Einstein?
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,915
3,368
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, isn't the elect "ourselves" in Rom 8:33. The word "us" is mentioned 8 times in Rom 8:31-39. :rolleyes:
Ummmmm, Romans 8 doesn't mention that WE can't separate OURSELVES from the love of God.
Pay attention . . .