Living in Sin or just roommates who love each other?

[Ferris Bueller]

Who's common sense? The one stumbling?

No, the one potentially causing the stumbling.
Govern your freedoms, not only in love, but with common sense.
Per my example, it doesn't make sense for me, alone, to not let Sabbath keepers see or know about my Sunday worship when millions and millions of people are worshipping out in public all over the world. The most I could reasonably do in that situation is keep what I believe about that secret when I'm around Sabbath keepers. Unless, of course, we've agreed to talk about it, like in a forum like this.

 

[Grailhunter]

John Q. Christian sees Ted and Alice, the fictitious couple in the OP, living together like man and wife without actually getting married. John Q. Christian has the conviction that couples should get legally married if they are going to live together (he has no idea they aren't having sex, and, frankly, it's none of his business, but nonetheless, it appears they are).

Sometime later John meets Jane Christian and they fall in love. John and Jane, out of expedience, end up living together because that's what Ted and Alice are doing. Even though it's against John's conscience to do so. Ted and Alice have caused John to sin against his own conscience. To him it is a sin to live together like Ted and Alice are doing, so when he does the same thing they're doing he is sinning:

"...if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean." Romans 14:14​

Ted and Alice, through their freedom, and through their knowledge (they know it's okay because they aren't having sex) have caused John to sin. Paul says it's better to not exercise your freedom than to destroy the work of God. Ted and Alice aren't acting in love toward other Christians by doing what they're doing.

"15If your brother is distressed by what you eat, you are no longer acting in love." Romans 14:15
​

It's easy to be a Christian...until it's not easy to be a Christian. Sacrificial love is the distinguishing mark between the love the world and how the Christian loves. Ted and Alice need to make the sacrifice of their freedoms in the name of peace and unity and not causing a fellow believer to sin.

Well, you need to keep Alice from running down that rabbit hole. But I do agree with you within reason, but then there is principles and practicality. But living for the approval of others or try to compensate for every concern would be like playing whack a mole or the fable of Aesop... of https://worldfolklore.net/index.php/2020/05/15/the-miller-his-son-and-the-donkey/

And if you want to have a wedding or recommend a wedding we are in the same boat. We could start a business as wedding planners. But you are going to have to be the singer.

Whether it is weddings, not eating meat, or specifically pork, using cloth diapers, using push mowers, drinking alcohol, getting rid of your cows because they contributing to greenhouse gases, get rid of your big 4-wheel drive and buy an electric car.....it is endless.

If you are that concerned or you know some one that is that concerned about other people's crotches, it is better to educate them on the truth, for one thing you do not want to be condemning people regarding something that is not a sin, which in itself would be a sin. We will be measured - judged by the measure we use to judge so we would be dodging an endless amount of concerns.

On the other hand, the truth is that a denomination has the right to develop requirements, but not sins. You go to a church and be part of the congregation and they require weddings for marriages and do not tolerate couples living together....that is a valid rule for that congregation. But again it can be a rabbit hole, but it is your choice what church you join. Some churches like their women to wear long hair, minimal jewelry, no drinking, no smoking, no music, no television, no swimming with men a women, no card or dice playing etc. These are valid rules for a denomination. No sin for the church to come up with these rules and no sin for not complying, just a choice for which congregation you want to fellowship with.

Then again for the "church of ones" the list of man-made sins is very long and you would have to have personal electronic devises setup with all your concerns and everyone would need one setup with their concerns and the devise could detect if you were within half a mile of someone that had a concern that you should have a concern about. And a person with this devise could respond to an alarm if someone gets close to them that does something that they have concerns about. You might even be able to integrate it into your automobile's braking and steering.

But isn't the truth important? Is it better to dodge every concern or educate Christians on the truth. Is Christianity a religion of non-truths? If a church that makes weddings a requirement have people in their congregation that talk about and shame Ted and Alice and they turn away from the church and Christianity and end up going to hell....what level of sin is that? There are people that will not associate with the judgmental and gossipers and will write Christianity off because it is full of them. Or become "church of ones" to avoid that.

 

[TEXBOW]

No, the one potentially causing the stumbling.
Govern your freedoms, not only in love, but with common sense.
Per my example, it doesn't make sense for me, alone, to not let Sabbath keepers see or know about my Sunday worship when millions and millions of people are worshipping out in public all over the world. The most I could reasonably do in that situation is keep what I believe about that secret when I'm around Sabbath keepers. Unless, of course, we've agreed to talk about, like in a forum like this.

Our differences are that you must live your life according to what others "think" "feel" justified or not. I live my life according to fact. If I were approached as being in offense to another believer I would set them straight, correct their false judgments and move on. My liberties in Christ are not in bondage to false judgments.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Anyway, as to the rest of your post...

If you purchase a new car and a Church member tells you that spending your money frivolously is causing them to stumble are you going to return the car? How about the new shirt you wore to Church or bringing your attractive wife to Church, causing one to sin in lust? Foolishness.

He is free to get his own car, and his own new shirt, and his own hot wife. Those are not disputable matters. Everyone is entitled to do that. What he cannot do is follow Ted and Alice’s appearance of immorality.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Our differences are that you must live your life according to what others "think" "feel" justified or not. I live my life according to fact. If I were approached as being in offense to another believer I would set them straight, correct their false judgments and move on. My liberties in Christ are not in bondage to false judgments.

The problem is he’s probably not going to approach you about the appearance of your sin for you to be able to do that. He’s just going to remember the appearance of your example and potentially follow that example and sin against his conscience and you will be guilty of sinning against him.

In 15 years of on-line discussions I don’t recall a single person who accepted the teaching of Romans 14 but rather insisted on their right to do whatever they want to do.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

for one thing you do not want to be condemning people regarding something that is not a sin, which in itself would be a sin. We will be measured - judged by the measure we use to judge so we would be dodging an endless amount of concerns.

Look at all this trouble caused just because two people want to do whatever they want to do without thinking about how what they do affects others.

 

[Lambano]

forget the bedroom goings on.

I forget who said it (CS Lewis?): “Christians obsess over the sins of the bedroom when much greater evils are conceived in the boardroom”.

 

[Grailhunter]

Look at all this trouble caused just because two people want to do whatever they want to do without thinking about how what they do affects others.

Again it a world full of rabbit holes. I have a problem and expect the world to adjust to it.

 

[Pearl]

I forget who said it (CS Lewis?): “Christians obsess over the sins of the bedroom when much greater evils are conceived in the boardroom”.

He was a very wise man whether it was C.S. Lewis or somebody else.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I forget who said it (CS Lewis?): “Christians obsess over the sins of the bedroom when much greater evils are conceived in the boardroom”.

This isn't about somebody obsessing over another's immorality.
It's about whether or not a weaker believer may be emboldened to live in immorality because he sees someone else (apparently) living in immorality.

 

[TEXBOW]

When a person sins it is never excused because of someone else. You are responsible for your own sins. We must also understand that Stumbling is not the same as disagreeing. Are you truly doing something to weaken someone's faith, are you even aware of it, are you doing it on purpose? If a believer truly has a problem or has had a problem with coveting cheese enchiladas do you place your enchilada plate under the table when that person walks into the restaurant? Is that the solution? I can't get around the fact that almost any and everything a person does could be a stumbling block for someone. I just do not think that the answer is to hide our liberties. I do think if a person is knowingly causing a person to be weak in his faith, it's a different story. I think there is a personal responsibility for the weak to get stronger.

 

[Grailhunter]

This isn't about somebody obsessing over another's immorality.
It's about whether or not a weaker believer may be emboldened to live in immorality because he sees someone else (apparently) living in immorality.

So then we get into a deeper topic.....the walking speech that I am I will try to condense this.
How does truth relate to Christianity.....Why am I the self designated Johnny Appleseed of truth. What kind of gift is it that a boy in the second grade can read the Bible and qualify for collage at 14. Now I think God gave me everything I needed and set me on this quest at a very young age....
I read a story in what was called the Weekly Reader in third grade about research and the systematic Methods, I took that to heart.
So I realized that I needed a method a written method to approach this quest with a plan. Over the years I have developed and refined that method. Some of the more important points are.
1. Preconceived notions are discarded.
2. You cannot care what the truth is.
3. You have to define what Beliefs, Truths, and Facts are.
4. You have to develop a system of confidence levels.

So what is the importance of truth in regard to Christianity? In the Old Testament the word truth appears around 115 times.
In the New Testament...a portion of the Bible that is much smaller than the Old Testament, the word truth appears around 109 times. So I came to an initial conclusion that truth is very important to the understanding and application of Christianity. And then the truth, God's truth will give you confidence that it is all true and that is the rock of faith.

Matthew 14:33 .....Of a truth that you are the Son of God.
John 3:21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 2:2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
Romans 9:1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
1st Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let’s celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
1st Corinthians 13:6 it does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
2nd Corinthians 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
2nd Corinthians 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
Ephesians 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
Ephesians 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Ephesians 5:9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)
Ephesians 6:14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place,
1st Thessalonians 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.
2nd Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2nd Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
3rd John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth.
Matthew 22:16 And they sent their disciples to Him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and do not care what anyone thinks; for You are not partial to anyone.
Luke 21:3 And He said, “Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all of them;
John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

And of course this verse....
John 18:37-38 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?”

Does the end justify the means? Well sometimes I wonder. But for sure even if you achieve your goal...it is always tainted.
Christianity is all about truth. From that truth we are to understand.

People are people....the desire to control others....the history of the Church has seen it....control of what they believe and control the behavior of others with lies. Justify it by saying it is for their own good. There is so many lies....what happens to a person's faith when they realized that they have been lied to, by those that are suppose to speak the truth. Case in point; How many senior Christians here have been told all their lives that you have to have a wedding to be married? How many did not know that the lady the had sex with and walked away, was their wife. And the next lady they had relations with was adultery. Lies are not a means of conveying the truth of Christianity. The means does not justify the lie....People learn the truth and they wonder how many other things have they been lied to about their whole lives. Lies never serve good.

People need to be told the truth so that their faith and beliefs can be built on the foundation of truth.
The focus I had very early on to seek the truth has served me well on my quest, my faith, and in my life.
Johnny Appleseed of truth.
Be good and do good....means tell the truth.

 

[TEXBOW]

So then we get into a deeper topic.....the walking speech that I am I will try to condense this.
How does truth relate to Christianity.....Why am I the self designated Johnny Appleseed of truth. What kind of gift is it that a boy in the second grade can read the Bible and qualify for collage at 14. Now I think God gave me everything I needed and set me on this quest at a very young age....
I read a story in what was called the Weekly Reader in third grade about research and the systematic Methods, I took that to heart.
So I realized that I needed a method a written method to approach this quest with a plan. Over the years I have developed and refined that method. Some of the more important points are.
1. Preconceived notions are discarded.
2. You cannot care what the truth is.
3. You have to define what Beliefs, Truths, and Facts are.
4. You have to develop a system of confidence levels.

So what is the importance of truth in regard to Christianity? In the Old Testament the word truth appears around 115 times.
In the New Testament...a portion of the Bible that is much smaller than the Old Testament, the word truth appears around 109 times. So I came to an initial conclusion that truth is very important to the understanding and application of Christianity. And then the truth, God's truth will give you confidence that it is all true and that is the rock of faith.

Matthew 14:33 .....Of a truth that you are the Son of God.
John 3:21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 2:2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
Romans 9:1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
1st Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let’s celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
1st Corinthians 13:6 it does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
2nd Corinthians 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
2nd Corinthians 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
Ephesians 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
Ephesians 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Ephesians 5:9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)
Ephesians 6:14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place,
1st Thessalonians 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.
2nd Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2nd Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
3rd John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth.
Matthew 22:16 And they sent their disciples to Him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and do not care what anyone thinks; for You are not partial to anyone.
Luke 21:3 And He said, “Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all of them;
John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

And of course this verse....
John 18:37-38 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?”

Does the end justify the means? Well sometimes I wonder. But for sure even if you achieve your goal...it is always tainted.
Christianity is all about truth. From that truth we are to understand.


People are people....the desire to control others....the history of the Church has seen it....control of what they believe and control the behavior of others with lies. Justify it by saying it is for their own good. There is so many lies....what happens to a person's faith when they realized that they have been lied to, by those that are suppose to speak the truth. Case in point; How many senior Christians here have been told all their lives that you have to have a wedding to be married? How many did not know that the lady the had sex with and walked away, was their wife. And the next lady they had relations with was adultery. Lies are not a means of conveying the truth of Christianity. The means does not justify the lie....People learn the truth and they wonder how many other things have they been lied to about their whole lives. Lies never serve good.

People need to be told the truth so that their faith and beliefs can be built on the foundation of truth.
The focus I had very early on to seek the truth has served me well on my quest, my faith, and in my life.
Johnny Appleseed of truth.
Be good and do good....means tell the truth.

Truth is love.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I have a problem and expect the world to adjust to it.

Ted and Alice need to understand that God is not going to adjust the world to them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

When a person sins it is never excused because of someone else. You are responsible for your own sins.

That's right.
Ted and Alice are responsible for their sin of causing a weaker believer to sin against their conscience, and John Q. New Believer is responsible for sinning against his conscience.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If a believer truly has a problem or has had a problem with coveting cheese enchiladas do you place your enchilada plate under the table when that person walks into the restaurant? Is that the solution?

No, because it's not a sin to eat cheese enchiladas.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I can't get around the fact that almost any and everything a person does could be a stumbling block for someone.

Reread Romans 14 thoughtfully. The issue is in regard to disputable matters; matters of conscience because there is no easily discernible hard and fast teaching about a particular matter. Or, the knowledge of the disputable matter involves depth that can only be grasped by more mature, experienced believers.

Ted and Alice are foolishly setting up the potential for trouble by selfishly creating a convenient situation for themselves with no loving thought of how it might affect someone else. John Q. Christian may lack knowledge of the actual situation and fall as a result, but Ted and Alice lack knowledge of Christian love for others. "Love does no wrong to it's neighbor" Romans 13:10.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I just do not think that the answer is to hide our liberties.

Then you simply do not agree with Romans 14.

 

[Grailhunter]

That's right.
Ted and Alice are responsible for their sin of causing a weaker believer to sin against their conscience, and John Q. New Believer is responsible for sinning against his conscience.

No sin occurred other than in your mind....and that does not count.
What Ted and Alice did was as God designed and it was done that way all through the Old Testament and around 1500 years into Christianity. You are thinking you have the authority to label millions and millions of marriages as sinful. It is just not true.
The church or denomination has the right to require weddings....not play God.

To be honest I wished Christ and the Apostles would have required weddings....with details of the ceremony. But that did not happen.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I do think if a person is knowingly causing a person to be weak in his faith, it's a different story.

Yes, and so the answer to the OP is to show that Ted and Alice (I assume they are believers) are not acting in love towards their fellow believers by handling their situation the way they are.

I think there is a personal responsibility for the weak to get stronger.

I agree with that.
But that doesn't relieve us of our responsibility to not cause them to sin against their conscience.
I used to be weak in knowledge about some things. I didn't get educated by watching people do things I thought were sinful. As I experienced things in life and matured God educated me about things. And now I'm the one that has to be careful to not cause less mature believers to do things they think are sins.