Looking for advice: Can women be pastors

[VictoryinJesus]

Now let me make it clear, I'm not vilifying your husband. But this was your quote:

Neither am I. This was in the beginning; a lot has changed since then. God has changed my husband for the better, and hopefully me also. I only shared because this may be how another woman feels. I would tell her not to give up hope. God works to repair what is broken.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Neither am I. This was in the beginning; a lot has changed since then. God has changed my husband for the better, and hopefully me also. I only shared because this may be how another woman feels. I would tell her not to give up hope. God works to repair what is broken.

Glory to God. That's a wonderful word. Love always hopes.

 

[OzSpen]

About this, I would be curious to see the debate if you have anything. All the words are masculine in this text, with no variation among any of the manuscripts.

HiH,

In Rom 16:7 the Greek text for jounias is Ἰουνίαν. The difficulty with this word is that the word can be either masculine or feminine. Bible exegete Douglas Moo explains:

Andronicus is a common Greek name, so he must have been a “Hellenistic” Jew. The identity of identity of Andronicus’s “partner” is a matter of considerable debate. The problem arises from the fact that the Greek form used here, Iounian, depending on how it is accented, could refer either

(1) to a man with the name Junianus, found here in its contracted form, “Junias”;

or (2) to a woman with the name of Junia.

Interpreters from the thirteenth to the middle of the twentieth century generally favored the masculine identification. But is appears that commentators before the thirteenth century were unanimous in favor of the feminine identification; and scholars have recently again inclined decisively to this same view. And probably with good reason. For while a contracted of Junianus would fit quite well in this list of greetings (for Paul uses several other such contractions), we have no evidence elsewhere for this contracted form of the name. On the other hand, the Latin “Junia” was a very common name.

Probably, then, “Junia” was the wife of Andronicus (note the other husband and wife pairs in this list, Prisca and Aquila and Philologus and Julia [v. 15]). …And it is because Paul thus calls “Junia(s) an “apostle” that earlier interpreters tended to argue that Paul must be referring to a man; for they had difficulty imagining that a woman could hold such authority in the early church. …But many scholars on both sides of this issue are guilty of accepting too readily a key supposition in this line of reasoning: that “apostle” here refers to an authoritative leadership position such as that held by the “Twelve” and by Paul. In fact, Paul often uses the title “apostle” in a “looser” sense: sometimes simply to denote a “messenger” or “emissary” and sometimes to denote a “commissioned missionary.” …So “apostle” here probably means “traveling missionary”” (The Epistle to the Romans 1996:921-922).​

I hope that helps.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I believe there's NO EVIDENCE IN SCRIPTURE THAT WOMEN CAN BE PASTORS.

Would you be so kind as to show me from Scripture that the role of pastors only is separate from pastor-teachers (one role, Eph 4:11)?

Again, could you demonstrate that the pastor-teachers of Eph 4:11 are only men?

Thanks,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Not one word provided shows that women are "Pastors" or "Deacons"

The women were in "Helps Ministries"
servants to the church, Amen.

'Helps Ministries' is the ministry of diakonos - deacons. Phoebe was a deaconess (Rom 16:1).

There is nothing in Eph 4:11 that limits the gift of pastor-teacher to men only. Not a word against women as pastor-teachers.

Oz

 

[Triumph1300]

John Piper sums it up nicely:

Jesus was pro-woman to the max.

But he did not choose women to be apostles.

That wasn't because he was enslaved to his times.

It was because, in coherence with the rest of the Bible (Genesis 1-2, Ephesians 5, 1 Corinthians 11, and 1 Timothy 2), he believed that it would be healthy for the church and the family if men assumed the role of Christ-like, humble, caring, servant-leaders, and if the women came in alongside with their respective gifts to help carry his leadership through according to those gifts.

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(John Piper:
John Piper is founder and teacher of desiringGod.org and chancellor of Bethlehem College & Seminary. For 33 years, he served as pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church, Minneapolis, Minnesota. He is author of more than 50 books, including Desiring God: Meditations of a Christian Hedonist, and most recently Expository Exultation: Christian Preaching as Worship.)

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No need to say more.
This was my last post on this subject.

 

[Hidden In Him]

But is appears that commentators before the thirteenth century were unanimous in favor of the feminine identification

Thank you, Oz. As is often the case, I'm still left a little wanting as I would like to see his end notes on this statement but your link runs out of page availability and forces me to buy the book if I want to find out, LoL.

But anyway, fascinating. I appreciate the research.
Blessings in Christ.

Btw, you are the first I've seen at this site to make extended use of scholarship. Are there any more at this site who do so? I tend to take note.

 

[Truth7t7]

Would you be so kind as to show me from Scripture that the role of pastors only is separate from pastor-teachers (one role, Eph 4:11)?

Again, could you demonstrate that the pastor-teachers of Eph 4:11 are only men?

Thanks,
Oz

1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to

 

[Truth7t7]

'Helps Ministries' is the ministry of diakonos - deacons. Phoebe was a deaconess (Rom 16:1).

There is nothing in Eph 4:11 that limits the gift of pastor-teacher to men only. Not a word against women as pastor-teachers.

Oz

Phoebe was not a deaconess, men are to be pastors/bishops/deacons.

You can disagree all ya want, God's word's stand true and are not contradictory.

1 Timothy 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[Willie T]

Phone was not a deaconess, men are to be pastors/bishops.

You can disagree all ya want, God's word's stand true and are not contradictory.

1 Timothy 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

I dunno, my "phone" sometimes thinks it's a deaconess.

 

[Triumph1300]

Depends what kind of phone.
I don't have a cell phone.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I dunno, my "phone" sometimes thinks it's a deaconess.

My phone was definitely not a deaconess. Her battery wouldn't even recharge after a while, so I had to excommunicate her from my life.

Sad story... but true.

 

[Hidden In Him]

My phone was definitely not a deaconess. Her battery wouldn't even recharge after a while, so I had to excommunicate her from my life.

Sad story... but true.

But it makes me think... how happy I would be if my phone actually were a deaconess.

 

[Helen]

I don't have a cell phone.

Me neither.
They are an addiction. How did people think we lived before they were invented?
= Less stressfully. They can't keep their eyes off them...even in an expensive restaurant!!

 

[Triumph1300]

Yes, mom, dad and two kids in restaurant:

All looking at their phones! Zombies!

 

[Triumph1300]

 

[OzSpen]

Thank you, Oz. As is often the case, I'm still left a little wanting as I would like to see his end notes on this statement but your link runs out of page availability and forces me to buy the book if I want to find out, LoL.

But anyway, fascinating. I appreciate the research.
Blessings in Christ.

Btw, you are the first I've seen at this site to make extended use of scholarship. Are there any more at this site who do so? I tend to take note.

HiH,

Generally on this site, those who use scholarship are not looked on favourably by some because of this training.

I have been treated by some as being 'not wanted' on this site by a few people who have a low view of the need for scholarship and a high view of letting the Holy Spirit direct us experientially.

As an aside, where would we be without scholars in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek for translation of the Bible into English.

What footnotes from Douglas Moo's commentary would you like to receive? I have a hard copy of the commentary.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to

I asked about Eph 4:11 and not about 1 Tim 3:2.

 

[OzSpen]

Phoebe was not a deaconess, men are to be pastors/bishops/deacons.

That's an assertion that provides no evidence.

I have demonstrated over and over in this thread that women have active ministries of deacons and pastor-teachers and teachers alone.

I plan on providing no more evidence.

Oz

 

[Hidden In Him]

I have been treated by some as being 'not wanted' on this site by a few people who have a low view of the need for scholarship and a high view of letting the Holy Spirit direct us experientially. As an aside, where would we be without scholars in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek for translation of the Bible into English.

Thanks. I take the position that neither is mutually exclusive. Scholarship is not only a beautiful but absolutely essential thing. It becomes most trustworthy when properly directed and made use of through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

What footnotes from Douglas Moo's commentary would you like to receive? I have a hard copy of the commentary.

Oz

Don't go to too much trouble. I was merely trying to track down his citations of commentators before the 13th century.

Appreciate your input, and thanks again.