Looking for advice: Can women be pastors

[Triumph1300]

Since Billy Graham promoted the view that his daughter, Anne Graham Lotz, was a better preach than he was, did God get it wrong by giving Anne a teaching / preaching gift?

You are mixing pastoring and preaching.
A pastor does lot more than just preaching and teaching.

 

[Triumph1300]

The Church of the Nazarene gives its reply as a big fat YES!

I doubt this church has the final authority on this issue.
You might as well quote Baptists and many others.
The point that counts is "What does the Bible say?"

 

[Triumph1300]

I agree with you. This thread is not about popes or feminist. Soooo why was it brought up?

A Internet troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

But I get it.....Your lonely. You need someone to talk to. Some have drug addictions they can't beat. Others have troll addictions they can't beat. I will feed your addiction. I will engage with you.

Who is Johnny?

Mary (praying for the addicted)

You have a great day, Mary

 

[Marymog]

You have a great day, MaryView attachment 2693

Every day is a great day for Mary.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, preach.
No problem with that.
Pastor, no.

You are mixing pastoring and preaching.
A pastor does lot more than just preaching and teaching.

I know, mate. I'm a retired pastor-teacher/preacher. You're not telling me anything new.

I am not mixing pastoring and preaching. You are mixing pastoring and preaching when the biblical role is pastor-teacher (one person) - Eph 4:11 - and women are not mentioned as being excluded.

That's what the Greek grammar teaches us. We can't replace teacher with preacher when it was God himself who gave the gift of pastor-teacher AND teacher.

Remember what God also did in addition to the gift of pastor-teacher? He gave gifts of teachers (1 Cor 12:28-31; Rom 12:7). This is not what Paul teaches in 1 Cor 12:28-31:

28 Here are some of the parts God has appointed for the church:

first are apostles - male only and women are excluded;
second are prophets - male only and women are excluded;
third are teachers - male only and women are excluded;
then those who do miracles - male only and women are excluded;
those who have the gift of healing - male only and women are excluded;
those who can help others - male only and women are excluded;
those who have the gift of leadership - male only and women are excluded;
those who speak in unknown languages - male only and women are excluded;

29 Are we all apostles? Are we all prophets? Are we all teachers? Do we all have the power to do miracles? 30 Do we all have the gift of healing? Do we all have the ability to speak in unknown languages? Do we all have the ability to interpret unknown languages? Of course not!31 So you should earnestly desire the most helpful gifts - unless you are a woman who is excluded from anything to do with teaching and prophesying to an audience that includes males.

But now let me show you a way of life that is best of all - the best way of love is to exclude women from speaking ministry when the church gathers (NLT with some additions in bold).

Oz​

 

[OzSpen]

I doubt this church has the final authority on this issue.
You might as well quote Baptists and many others.
The point that counts is "What does the Bible say?"

Since that denomination preaches 'what the Bible says' and concludes differently from you, what are we to do as people who love the Lord and love Scripture?

Paul instructs us, 'Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth' (2 Tim 2:15 NLT).

That's what I'm attempting to do, but it is not the traditional way. I'm attempting to exegete Scriptures the biblical way.

Oz

 

[Triumph1300]

Since that denomination preaches 'what the Bible says' and concludes differently from you

.

OK.
Sorry I upset you, mate.

 

[Triumph1300]

Since that denomination preaches 'what the Bible says'

That's what every denomination says.
Means nothing, really.
But I guess you have to follow your denomination....

 

[OzSpen]

.

OK.
Sorry I upset you, mate.

I don't know from where you got the idea I'm upset. I'm not!

I'm interested only in careful biblical exegesis and exposition.

Leading NT scholar and retired Anglican bishop in the UK, N T Wright, after a careful examination of the relevant Scriptures on women in ministry, concluded:

I believe we have seriously misread the relevant passages in the New Testament, no doubt not least through a long process of assumption, tradition, and all kinds of post-biblical and sub-biblical attitudes that have crept in to Christianity. Just as I think we need radically to change our traditional pictures of the afterlife, away from the mediaeval models and back to the biblical ones, so we need radically to change our traditional pictures both of what men and women are and how they relate to one another within the church and indeed of what the Bible says on this subject. I do wonder, sometimes, if those who present radical challenges to Christianity have been all the more eager to make out that the Bible says certain things about women, as an excuse for claiming that Christianity in general is a wicked thing and we ought to abandon it. Of course, there have been plenty of Christians who have given outsiders plenty of chances to make that sort of comment. But perhaps in our generation we have an opportunity to take a large step back in the right direction (Women's Service in the Church: The Biblical Basis).
​

It's time for you to deal with the challenges to your traditional model of the silence of women in teaching to a mixed audience. God should have told that to Junia (Rom 16:7), Catherine Booth of the Salvation Army, and Elizabeth Hooton, the first female Quaker woman preacher.

Oz

 

[Truth7t7]

The Church of the Nazarene gives its reply as a big fat YES!

From its inception, the Church of the Nazarene has recognised from Scripture and history that God calls women to preach and pastor. Brad Mercer has expounded on this in his article, ‘Women in Ministry and the Church of the Nazarene’ (Mercer 2013). In this article Brad states the Church of the Nazarene’s stance clearly.

Just because Brad Mercer and the Nazarenes believe It's ok, this does not change scripture concerning pastors being "Male" and the husband of one wife.

Many buildings that call themselves church, fly the rainbow flag, and have practicing homosexuals in leadership.

God does not have rainbow flag churches, with practicing homosexuals in leadership.

Pastors And Deacons Are To Be Married Men, Of Good Report, Ruling Their Own Houses Well.

1 Timothy 3:1-13KJV
3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[Windmillcharge]

A woman is to keep silent in the church, she is to learn from her husband at home.

Pastors And Deacons Are To Be Married men.

Pastors And Deacons Are To Be Married Men, Of Good Report, Ruling Their Own Houses Well.

1 Timothy 3:1-13KJV
3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

A woman is to remain silent in the Church service, at no time within the Church does a woman exercise authority over the man.

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

A woman is to obey and love her husband and family, be a home maker, simple.

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Full marks for quoting scripture and zero marks for not applying scripture.

Again a mature female Christian is talking with a new Christian. TThis new Chjristian has latched on to false teaching. Is this Christian woman allowed to correct what this new Christian is saying?

Because I believe it is part of every Christians duty to point out when another Christian is hold false docrine.

Also you have not said how many women are serving as missionaries, preaching to Men, in other countries in mission organisations supported by you and your church.

 

[OzSpen]

Just because Brad Mercer and the Nazarenes believe It's ok, this does not change scripture concerning pastors being "Male" and the husband of one wife.

Many buildings that call themselves church, fly the rainbow flag, and have practicing homosexuals in leadership.

God does not have rainbow flag churches, with practicing homosexuals in leadership.

Pastors And Deacons Are To Be Married Men, Of Good Report, Ruling Their Own Houses Well.

1 Timothy 3:1-13KJV
3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

7t7,

There are a number of issues in your posT that I could challenge biblically:

Just because Brad Mercer and the Nazarenes believe It's ok, this does not change scripture concerning pastors being "Male" and the husband of one wife.

Just because 7t7 believes pastors MUST be male and married, does not mean that the Scriptures teach the pastor-teacher role must be the exclusive role of males (Eph 4:11 NIV).

Pastors And Deacons Are To Be Married Men

Why, oh why, do you think Paul, writing to Timothy in Ephesus (1 Tim 1:3 NIV) in the first century would not give the example of female pastors and deacons? Ever heard of the Temple of Artemis (Diana) in Ephesus? What about the worship of the Greek goddess Aphrodite, the goddess of love and sex?

What was the identity of women in the first century?

Hebrew women were not allowed to divorce their husbands, but could be divorced for anything from burning the dinner (Hillel) to adultery (Shammai). In a culture in which women did not survive unless they were linked to the patriarchal household, it was disastrous to be divorced. Seen in this light, Jesus' proscription of divorce is markedly protective of women. The raising of the son of the widow of Nain is another example of Jesus' compassion for the poverty of a woman whose survival was threatened by the loss of her link to the patriarchal household. Most Hebrew women had minimal property rights. Theoretically women could inherit land, but in practice male heirs had precedence. Even if a woman did inherit property, her husband had the right to its use and its fruits (Women in Church Leadership).

However, I want to address your exclusion of women in ministry because of your statement: 'this does not change scripture concerning pastors being "Male" and the husband of one wife'.

Archaeology, tombstones & women presbyters

(image courtesy Catacombs of Priscilla, Rome)

It has been pointed out that in the first four centuries of the NT era, archaeology has found grave sites that confirmed there were women presbyters. ‘One tombstone reads, (don’t remember the names in order) ___ the daughter of Lois the presbyter’. This person stated that in many areas around the Mediterranean Sea, there have been discovered paintings of women in leadership positions and inscriptions in churches and on tombstones. These women are named and their positions are that of bishops and deacons. His view was that ‘archaeology demands that we reconcile what we have from Paul with the evidence’.

I don’t support that emphasis but consider it is worthy of further examination of the Scriptures. Are there examples in Scriptures of female deacons and presbyters (elders)?

What is the evidence from archaeology?

‘As far as the statement that there is no tradition of women priests, there’s good evidence from archaeology and iconography, in areas of what is now the former Yugoslavia, and southern Italy, that there were women presbyters, leaders of Christian communities in those places, in the early centuries. And a presbyter is what we would call a priest today’ (Johnson 2010:98).​

Some may say it doesn’t matter what archaeology shows regarding women in ministry. It is what the Bible teaches that is critical. Is that our line of reasoning when fish fossils are found on mountains, suggesting a possible association with a big flood like that associated with Noah’s Ark? Fossils should corroborate what the Bible teaches – and they do both for creation and women in ministry.

Even eminent, evangelical expositor, John MacArthuer, gets caught up in his anti-women in ministry presuppositions clouding his conclusions:

Servant translates diakonos, the term from which we get deacon. The Greek word here is neuter and was used in the church as a general term for servant before the offices of deacon and deaconess were developed. It is used of the household servants who drew the water that Jesus turned into wine (John 2:5, 9), and Paul has used the term earlier in this letter (Rom. 13:4, twice) to refer to secular government as “a minister of God to you for good” and even of Christ as “a servant to the circumcision,” that is, to Jews (15:8). When diakonos obviously refers to a church office, it is usually transliterated as “deacon” (see, e.g., Phil.1:1; 1 Tim. 3:10, 13) [Was Phoebe a deaconess? Grace to You].​

John M is a great expositor of Scripture, but here his presuppositions are influencing his conclusion that there are to be no women in ministry. He could not agree to Phoebe the deaconess because deacons have to be male. But in Rom 16:1, Phoebe is a female who has the ministry of deaconess. Shock horror!

I've exceeded my limit of words so I'll make another post below to provide biblical evidence of women in ministry.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

7t7,

Here is the further evidence:

Biblical evidence: A woman as deacon

(image of women in ministry, courtesy Catacombs of Priscilla, Rome)

Is there no evidence of any female in Scripture being designated as having the ministry of a deacon? My investigations of Scripture lead to the following understanding:

One is Phoebe in Rome who was …

• a deacon of the church (NIRV);
• a servant [or deaconess] of the church (ESV);
• a servant [or deaconess] of the church (HCSB);
• a deacon [or minister] in the church (ISV);
• a deacon [or minister] of the church (NRSV);
• a minister [diakonos] of the church (NABRE).

In addition, take a read of more evidence in Romans 16, where we have these women in ministry:

• ‘Phoebe, a deacon/servant of the church in Cenchreae’ (Rom 16:1);
• ‘Greet Priscilla and Aquila, fellow-workers (sunergoi) of me (Paul) in Christ Jesus’ (Rom 16:3). Priscilla is the woman and she is named before the male (possibly her husband), Aquila, indicating she might have had the more prominent ministry. She and her husband were ‘fellow-workers’ with Paul. She was not relegated to teaching only women and children as nothing of that kind of restriction is mentioned here.
• Rom 16:3 states that Priscilla and Aquila had a church that met in their house. Imagine that – a woman and a man leading a house church!
• Rom 16:7, ‘Andronicus and Junias, my relatives … outstanding among the apostles’. Junias is a female and is an apostle among the larger group of apostles (beyond the 12). There is debate among scholars over whether this refers to a male or a female.
• Rom 16:12, ‘Tryphaena and Tryphosa, the ones labouring in (the) Lord’. We are not told exactly what this ‘labouring’ was, but it does not say, ‘labouring, except for labour among a group that includes men and women’. In Douglas Moo’s commentary, he notes that these two ‘were probably slaves or freedwomen and may have been sisters’. He noted that both names, as Lightfoot noted, are found at about Paul’s time for servants in the imperial household’ (Moo 1996:925, 925 n. 53).

I commend to you the article, ‘The Neglected History of Women in the Early Church‘ (Christian History Institute), by Catherine Kroeger. One of the points she makes is:

Paul also mentions Phoebe in Romans 16, “a deacon of the church at Cenchreae” [Rom 16:1 Interlinear]. He calls her a prostatis or overseer [Rom 16:2 Interlinear]. This term in its masculine form, prostates, was used later by the Apostolic Fathers to designate the one presiding over the Eucharist. And Paul uses the same verb, the passive of ginomai (to be or become), as he uses in Colossians 1:23 [Interlinear]: “I was made a minister.” In the passive, the verb sometimes indicated ordination or appointment to an office. Thus one might legitimately translate Paul’s statement about Phoebe: “For she has been appointed, actually by my own action, an officer presiding over many.” The church in Rome is asked to welcome her and assist her in the church’s business.​

And I haven’t mention OT prominent women in ministry such as Deborah, Huldah, Esther, etc. [The above is from my article, Should churches have female deacons?

What about elders and deacons being the husband of one wife? See next post.

Oz

Works consulted

Johnson, A 2010. Roman Catholic Woman Bishop, in M E Fiedler (ed), Breaking through the Stained Glass Ceiling: Women Religious Leaders in Their Own Words, 96-99. New York, NY: Seabury Books.

Moo, D J 1996. The Epistle to the Romans (The New International Commentary on the New Testament). Grand Rapids, Michigan: Grand Rapids, Michigan / Cambridge, U.K: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I'm looking for insight on this topic (not a debate) My family is Methodist and growing up I attended a Methodist church and women as pastors was accepted. Where I am living now, there is a huge church of Christ population (I live in a small town, not many church options) and after attending their church for the last few years this topic is still uncertain in my mind. Where I attend a female can't lead a prayer if there is a male present, nor teach a class if a male is in it. Any role that a woman "has authority" over a male they are not permitted to do.

I would appreciate any insight on these roles. I am not looking to debate the subject, I know it can be sensitive - just looking for some clarity. Thank you.

Ok LC627, I am going to explain this to you in a way that will open your eyes, but I'll need you to pay close attention. I have many gifts, but my strongest is as a teacher of God's word. I count many of those who have responded to you in this thread as friends, so I don't mean to cause any strife by contradicting them, but most have it wrong.

Here is what you need to understand: In every single passage where this topic comes up in the NT, it is not discussing men and women but husbands and wives. The translators do an incredibly poor job of communicating this to the modern reader because they don't translate the original properly in the passages in question. The reason is because the Greek words for "men" and "women" are just as often translated "husbands" and "wives." You must look to the context to know which is the correct rendering.

Now watch:

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

These verses are not about women, they are about wives. The proper translation should be:

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your wives keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for wives to speak in the church.

Notice how he says, "but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." What law? He is referring to Genesis 3:16, which applies specifically to wives, not women. When you ask for someone to show you where the law states no woman can teach a man, you get dead silence.

Watch again:

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Again this in not a passage about women. It is a passage about wives.
Proper translation should be:

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged (widowed or married) women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young wives to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

That what word of God not be blasphemed? Genesis 3:16.
Watch again:

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

He was not talking here about women. He was talking about wives, and using the first husband and wife as his example, now relating the entire Genesis story to his argument.
Proper translation should be:

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the wife learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a wife to teach, nor to usurp authority over her husband, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but his wife being deceived was in the transgression.

Why were wives not allowed to teach their husbands? Because when a man and woman enter into a marriage agreement, they agree to become a reflection of the marriage between Christ and His bride the church, and the bride does not teach Christ anything. A husband must assume the responsibility to become her teacher in the word as a reflection of Christ to His bride ("husbands love your wives, cleansing them with the washing of the water in the word"), and she must assume the responsibility to hear and obey the word of God coming through him as the bride to Christ ("wives obey your husbands"), which means a man assumes an incredible responsibility spiritually when he marries. He will be held accountable to God for teaching her accurately.

This means that women are in no way inferior as teachers, and there is actually no NT command that forbids a woman from teaching in any capacity. The restriction merely applies to wives teaching their husbands, because inside the marriage relationship this would constitute "usurping authority" over him, and undermine their responsibility to be a reflection of Christ entering into relationship with the church.

Please respond if you read this. Not many understand the issue correctly.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It has been pointed out that in the first four centuries of the NT era, archaeology has found grave sites that confirmed there were women presbyters. ‘One tombstone reads, (don’t remember the names in order) ___ the daughter of Lois the presbyter’. This person stated that in many areas around the Mediterranean Sea, there have been discovered paintings of women in leadership positions and inscriptions in churches and on tombstones. These women are named and their positions are that of bishops and deacons.

‘As far as the statement that there is no tradition of women priests, there’s good evidence from archaeology and iconography, in areas of what is now the former Yugoslavia, and southern Italy, that there were women presbyters, leaders of Christian communities in those places, in the early centuries. And a presbyter is what we would call a priest today’ (Johnson 2010:98).

These two quotes are excellent, and I applaud your work in posting it.

Rom 16:7, ‘Andronicus and Junias, my relatives … outstanding among the apostles’. Junias is a female and is an apostle among the larger group of apostles (beyond the 12). There is debate among scholars over whether this refers to a male or a female.

About this, I would be curious to see the debate if you have anything. All the words are masculine in this text, with no variation among any of the manuscripts.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

A husband must assume the responsibility to become her teacher in the word as a reflection of Christ to His bride ("husbands love your wives, cleansing them with the washing of the water in the word"), and she must assume the responsibility to hear and obey the word of God coming through him as the bride to Christ ("wives obey your husbands"), which means a man assumes an incredible responsibility spiritually when he marries. He will be held accountable to God for teaching her accurately.

Hidden in Him, I agree with most of your post, except Ephesians 5:25-27. I am not saying this is how it is with every husband and wife but this is my own experience with Ephesians 5:25-27. When I first began to seek God, I went to my husband on a daily basis. I would plead, beg, cry, whine...do just about anything to get my husband to teach me God's word. My husband was passionate about the word of God. Often I heard him sharing with other men about God, but my husband would never invest in me. It hurt. The biggest blow was when he began telling men and others about occasions where, while out on a service call he ran across a desperate woman that was broken and crying and my husband would sit with her and attempt to lead her to Christ. I confronted my husband about the witnessing to other women alone in their homes and after quite a while of us arguing over it, his conclusion was "I feel like God has told me that I am not supposed to teach you but instead tell you to go to Him." My husband didn't say this to other women. Just me. It was like someone speaking to your hunger and saying you don't deserve to eat. I used Ephesians 5:25-27 to state my case telling my husband over and over he was supposed to wash his wife with the word of God. That it was his job to sanctify me. My husband kept insisting..."No. That is Christ's job has head of His church." For so long I couldn't understand why the one person I wanted to invest in me, wouldn't. Often he told me I was selfish for wanting to be fed when other women needed him. Sometimes, we do things and call it God's work, but it just feeds ego. Without realizing it, we gain some praise in the sight of others. The real work, the work that goes unseen by other men...is the last work we want to be held accountable for. So Ephesians 5:25-27 is the ideal but is not always the case. Not every woman can go to her husband but can only go to Christ. It is Christ that sanctifies and cleanses His body with the washing of the word. That HE (Christ) might present to himself a glorious wife(body), not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Ephesians 5:25-27
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

My husband was right. I am so thankful he sent me to God instead. It is Christ that washes and sanctifies. It was Christ that said I am worth being taught of Him. It was Christ(God) who supplied my daily bread when no one else would.

 

[Triumph1300]

Just because Brad Mercer and the Nazarenes believe It's ok, this does not change scripture concerning pastors being "Male" and the husband of one wife.

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't know from where you got the idea I'm upset. I'm not!

I'm interested only in careful biblical exegesis and exposition.

Leading NT scholar and retired Anglican bishop in the UK, N T Wright, after a careful examination of the relevant Scriptures on women in ministry, concluded:

I believe we have seriously misread the relevant passages in the New Testament, no doubt not least through a long process of assumption, tradition, and all kinds of post-biblical and sub-biblical attitudes that have crept in to Christianity. Just as I think we need radically to change our traditional pictures of the afterlife, away from the mediaeval models and back to the biblical ones, so we need radically to change our traditional pictures both of what men and women are and how they relate to one another within the church and indeed of what the Bible says on this subject. I do wonder, sometimes, if those who present radical challenges to Christianity have been all the more eager to make out that the Bible says certain things about women, as an excuse for claiming that Christianity in general is a wicked thing and we ought to abandon it. Of course, there have been plenty of Christians who have given outsiders plenty of chances to make that sort of comment. But perhaps in our generation we have an opportunity to take a large step back in the right direction (Women's Service in the Church: The Biblical Basis).
​

It's time for you to deal with the challenges to your traditional model of the silence of women in teaching to a mixed audience. God should have told that to Junia (Rom 16:7), Catherine Booth of the Salvation Army, and Elizabeth Hooton, the first female Quaker woman preacher.

Oz

7t7,

Here is the further evidence:

Biblical evidence: A woman as deacon

(image of women in ministry, courtesy Catacombs of Priscilla, Rome)

Is there no evidence of any female in Scripture being designated as having the ministry of a deacon? My investigations of Scripture lead to the following understanding:

One is Phoebe in Rome who was …

• a deacon of the church (NIRV);
• a servant [or deaconess] of the church (ESV);
• a servant [or deaconess] of the church (HCSB);
• a deacon [or minister] in the church (ISV);
• a deacon [or minister] of the church (NRSV);
• a minister [diakonos] of the church (NABRE).

In addition, take a read of more evidence in Romans 16, where we have these women in ministry:

• ‘Phoebe, a deacon/servant of the church in Cenchreae’ (Rom 16:1);
• ‘Greet Priscilla and Aquila, fellow-workers (sunergoi) of me (Paul) in Christ Jesus’ (Rom 16:3). Priscilla is the woman and she is named before the male (possibly her husband), Aquila, indicating she might have had the more prominent ministry. She and her husband were ‘fellow-workers’ with Paul. She was not relegated to teaching only women and children as nothing of that kind of restriction is mentioned here.
• Rom 16:3 states that Priscilla and Aquila had a church that met in their house. Imagine that – a woman and a man leading a house church!
• Rom 16:7, ‘Andronicus and Junias, my relatives … outstanding among the apostles’. Junias is a female and is an apostle among the larger group of apostles (beyond the 12). There is debate among scholars over whether this refers to a male or a female.
• Rom 16:12, ‘Tryphaena and Tryphosa, the ones labouring in (the) Lord’. We are not told exactly what this ‘labouring’ was, but it does not say, ‘labouring, except for labour among a group that includes men and women’. In Douglas Moo’s commentary, he notes that these two ‘were probably slaves or freedwomen and may have been sisters’. He noted that both names, as Lightfoot noted, are found at about Paul’s time for servants in the imperial household’ (Moo 1996:925, 925 n. 53).

I commend to you the article, ‘The Neglected History of Women in the Early Church‘ (Christian History Institute), by Catherine Kroeger. One of the points she makes is:

Paul also mentions Phoebe in Romans 16, “a deacon of the church at Cenchreae” [Rom 16:1 Interlinear]. He calls her a prostatis or overseer [Rom 16:2 Interlinear]. This term in its masculine form, prostates, was used later by the Apostolic Fathers to designate the one presiding over the Eucharist. And Paul uses the same verb, the passive of ginomai (to be or become), as he uses in Colossians 1:23 [Interlinear]: “I was made a minister.” In the passive, the verb sometimes indicated ordination or appointment to an office. Thus one might legitimately translate Paul’s statement about Phoebe: “For she has been appointed, actually by my own action, an officer presiding over many.” The church in Rome is asked to welcome her and assist her in the church’s business.​

And I haven’t mention OT prominent women in ministry such as Deborah, Huldah, Esther, etc. [The above is from my article, Should churches have female deacons?

What about elders and deacons being the husband of one wife? See next post.

Oz

Works consulted

Johnson, A 2010. Roman Catholic Woman Bishop, in M E Fiedler (ed), Breaking through the Stained Glass Ceiling: Women Religious Leaders in Their Own Words, 96-99. New York, NY: Seabury Books.

Moo, D J 1996. The Epistle to the Romans (The New International Commentary on the New Testament). Grand Rapids, Michigan: Grand Rapids, Michigan / Cambridge, U.K: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Not one word provided shows that women are "Pastors" or "Deacons"

The women were in "Helps Ministries"
servants to the church, Amen.

 

[Triumph1300]

It's time for you to deal with the challenges to your traditional model of the silence of women in teaching to a mixed audience.

That's a lie!

Not once did I say women should not be in the ministry of teaching!
Stop putting words into my mouth.

I know many women who are in this field and do an awesome job.

You can copy and paste long posts from historical sites as much as you want, but I believe there's NO EVIDENCE IN SCRIPTURE THAT WOMEN CAN BE PASTORS.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Often he told me I was selfish for wanting to be fed when other women needed him.

Ooooo... something I could not commend.

So Ephesians 5:25-27 is the ideal but is not always the case. Not every woman can go to her husband but can only go to Christ. It is Christ that sanctifies and cleanses His body with the washing of the word. That HE (Christ) might present to himself a glorious wife(body), not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Ephesians 5:25-27
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

My husband was right. I am so thankful he sent me to God instead. It is Christ that washes and sanctifies. It was Christ that said I am worth being taught of Him. It was Christ that supplied my daily bread when no one else would.

Ok, first off I understand your objection, and this really gets to the heart of it for many women. Your husband is/was at least able to teach if he so chose to. For many, their husbands are not.

But here is the problem with your position. Paul starts off verse 25 by directing his comment to husbands. The verses that follow are supporting this driving point. Paul is not redirecting responsibility to Christ in v.26-27, he is reinforcing his case that husbands are responsible to do just as Christ did. The point becomes, "Husbands, just as Christ is sanctifying and cleansing His bride through the word to present her to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing, so too must you." If not, the command "love your wives even as Christ also loved the church" becomes a stand-alone statement with nothing explaining it or clarifying its meaning.

See, the full statement is, "Husbands love your wives even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for her." This reminds me of something you said in your post. Let me see if I can find it.

Now let me make it clear, I'm not vilifying your husband. But this was your quote:

My husband was passionate about the word of God. Often I heard him sharing with other men about God, but my husband would never invest in me.

Investing in you is exactly what "Christ gave Himself" means. It's not merely talking about His going to the cross. It is about thereafter pouring out His Spirit upon her, to invest into her as much of the word of God as she was willing and able to receive, and in your case he was not doing this.

Now have circumstances changed somewhat in modern times? Yes. Women can get teaching from all sorts of outside sources that wouldn't threaten the marriage relationship. But this is still a husband's primary role in the marriage. It doesn't say anything in these passages about his responsibility for providing materially, though this is inferred. His primary role in reflecting Christ is to sanctify her through the word, as this is what fulfills the mystery of husband and wife representing Christ and His bride. It is Our Lord's greatest form of intimacy with us as His church, and so too does it need to be with a husband and wife who are in Christ.

The question about men who are incapable of teaching wives is more complex, but for me this one seems a little more cut and dried. Please understand also, part of the mystery of Christ and His bride is that He sent His Holy Spirit to become her Teacher, specifically so that she become ONE with Him in the deepest sense of the word, in heart, in mind, in will, and in soul. The husband likewise must do the same. How can the two partners become one in all the same senses if he is not completely sharing with her everything that he knows?

I appreciate your response. I believe this may be the first time someone has actually tried to explore the issue with me beyond merely debating over the translation and application of the passages in question.