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Featured Luther's Theology of the Cross

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Episkopos, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Luther came on the scene during a particularly bad time in the history of the Catholic establishment...

    He stood against the obvious excesses of the church in his time. But then he went further...much too far...in redefining biblical truth into more popular sounding beliefs that would render these accessible to the flesh. IOW...he threw out the baby with the bathwater.

    It would be like claiming a policeman was corrupt...which he is...but then also throwing out the laws of the land as a result. We need to make a distinction between the law and that which breaks the law.

    The Catholic institution was not ALL WRONG as Luther suggested. His ideas became known through mass media. And we have seen the effect of the printing press on propaganda. Take a human idea and mass produce it...and you have the "reformation."

    The Catholic establishment didn't really know how to combat this seduction away from the truth...namely because they didn't understand it (the truth) very well (either). They didn't understand the point of Luther's argument. And the same situation persists today. All the arguing is safely outside the truth. It is an argument over which error is more convenient. The Catholics have a better theology...but don't understand why it is better. And the Reformation KNOWS what it believes...but the beliefs themselves are in error.

    Luther invented terminology that the catholic church didn't engage in.

    Luther made a distinction between what he called the "theology of the cross" (his own views) and the "theology of glory" which he claims the RC church held to.
    These were his own terms. And these were used to justify a false argument. Rather than taking on the church with it's own terminology, he just invented his own and sought to pigeonhole 1,500 years of church history into a category of his own making, making these errors.

    So he did exactly what he accused the church of doing...making good evil and evil good.

    Luther made up a belief system that the flesh can religiously cling to. And since the printing press and Luther's protests people have been redefining truth freely, causing thousands of divisions through human interpretations. And all this following the lead of Luther who opened "Pandoras box," so to speak.
     
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  2. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Luther's theology of the cross is not the same as being under the power of the cross. Luther began the error of mixing up faith with beliefs...a belief system taken from the bible but erroneous nevertheless. That's why it is so popular. It reduces the faith to a system of beliefs. Without the propaganda effect of the printing press...I don't think Luther's ideas would have spread as they did. So then with Luther begins the phenomenon of mass media and mass indoctrination. Take a human idea about the bible...mass produce it...and people will accept it as truth because it comes to them through a medium that makes many receive the very same message at the same time. This gives it an artificial authority. The printing press makes what is written look like truth.

    The medium IS the message. So then freedom of interpreting the bible began in earnest with Luther and his indoctrinating reformation. A lie, that is mass marketed, will circle the globe 3 times before truth even gets it's shoes on. So the reformation is really the liberation of mankind to read whatever they want to from the bible. THAT is the message...whether people agree on anything isn't the point at all. In fact, the devil has been undermining the truth, basically unopposed, for quite some time.

    People argue over non-essentials and have lost completely what IS essential in the mix.

    Confusion reigns.

    Of course indoctrinated people can explain exactly what it is they believe...but any honest look at the bible will show a human opinion for what it is. But this requires HONESTY...a self-effacing honesty. This is an honesty which few Christians today possess. Indoctrination takes the place of honesty, humility and the fear of the Lord. It makes a false sense of security a priority. Offering a "saved" status to it's adherents. This is wholeheartedly accepted by carnal religious people.

    So then discussion isn't possible. The devil wins because of this. The church divisions continue to increase.

    Nobody can see the big picture. At least not yet.
     
  3. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Luther was right in his denunciation of the PRACTICE of the Catholic church. But he went too far in his attack on it's theology. Outward reformation was good...but not inward subversion of the truth.

    Luther was NOT an apostle. He wasn't even a spiritual man. Protestants have swallowed the lie that Luther was God's man the way Paul was. Luther had the political backing of the German princes. The world is the devil's to control through politics...not God's. God authority is not made with man-made weapons. This is such a basic thing to understand...or not. The weapons of a true spiritual man in Christ...are spiritual in nature.

    A tree is known of it's fruit.

    There is a curse on they who put their trust in man. But we are to trust the Lord. In Him alone there is blessing. In Him alone is truth found.

    But popular religion is popular. And people love what is popular. That's what makes it popular! :)

    But people HATE the truth.

    So the situation persists.
     
  4. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Well-Known Member

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    I find most people are obsessed with Heaven or Hell, as that's there subject matter, but I say it's about growing in Christ Jesus that's the main point in your life.

    I seen a cartoon with one stand with comforting lies and the other with unpleasant truths, you see a big line out front one and non at the other. :D

    If Luther did not have the backing of the Princes ect he would of been a sitting duck.

    All protestant religions sprouts from a political type of faction that controlled the position that they peddle, it's the same with the RCC but their are many more within such, with all different factions within just that alone, when one understands it's workings.

    When one looks at any religion over time they change, I have seen just from the 1960's the Lutheran Church has changed it's spots a lot and so as the C or E.
    One can look at the RCC and it slowly changed it's spots a lot from Vatican II on, progressively moving away from the Key foundation of Christ Jesus to just becoming more involved in mans works religion from when the doppelganger Pope Paul came in that this dribble kicked in and was peddled up to the point now of a total disgrace with Pope Frances who is an outright Satanist.

    I believe it was just the works of the Talmud that took a faction with in the RCC from around 1930's and this pox set in.
    The Talmud in fact do promote Child molesting and all Satanic things to undermine people as that's their bag, they destroyed Israel and Judah, lead them away from Christ Jesus and bastardise our Lord 24/7, wherever you look nowadays you can see their handy works at hand, demanding the destruction of peoples Souls, with mans works dribble, like all are equal ? sounds good to a Atheist for sure, but the fact is that the reality of this is that only the lowest denominator wins out, as such a thing can only be equal, they all become equal nothings under a God less Communism, enslaved to the great Whore.

    Where are all the Churches nowadays ? in bed with the great Whore !

    One only needs only Jesus Christ in your life and abide in him only, the religions of this world are a business first and foremost and that's a fact and that's why they have all failed, because priest are following their religious leaders and not truly Jesus Christ, so the proof of this is exposed in percentage of people who go to Church nowadays. people have abandoned such like a plague and the weeds have taken hold and choked the Nations and that's why we now have this 2ed coming trip festering like it is, because they have lost faith.
     
  5. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Well-Known Member

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    If the Churches truly promoted Christ Jesus first and foremost in peoples lives there would be no falling away and the weeds would not of strangled the people like has happened. the Churches have a lot to answer for, as they have failed Jesus Christ.
    Some of the dribble that I have heard from the Archbishop in my State :rolleyes: what a moron !
     
  6. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    Hello Reggie,

    Truly, it fulfilled psalm 2:1-3

    Why do the nations protest and the peoples grumble in vain?

    Kings on earth rise up and princes plot together against the LORD and his anointed:

    "Let us break their shackles and cast off their chains
    !"

    Peace be with you!
     
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  7. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    @Episkopos
    Luther took hold of the already unwieldy misunderstandings and practices of the system in place and as you say while trying to improve things or to fix things multiplied the whole problem generally rather than fix it. What he did accomplish as God led him [as a very fallible man who certainly failed a lot personally some times without realizing what he was doing] to do it, was open some doors that men and/or devils had worked hard to close. It is similar to what was accomplished with that first tower of Babel [Genesis chapter 11]. They were working hard to get to the higher place of heaven without really understanding their error, so God, who is not the author of confusion, confused their languages to open up for those few really interested in walking with God to more easily find His Highway of Holiness.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2019
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  8. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Amen. The religious system feeds on people for support. Yet the people look to it for truth.

    Where is Jesus Christ in all of the mix? The Cornerstone keeps getting rejected by the builders.
     
  9. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Luther's idea of justification is to cover up the truth. Like a fresh falling of white snow covering up a dung hill. So this fiction of...when God sees us, He only sees Jesus....who supposedly takes away sight from God.....not sin from us. Where is the power that transforms mankind in that? A salvation through a changeable God? Or does God not change at all? So the Reformation requires a diluted God with far less perception power in order to succeed.

    The Reformation mainly boils down to a "bait and switch" philosophy that seems to discard the main problems that the gospel raises up to the understanding of fallen man. All this from a monk who was tormented to find the truth of his own inability to overcome sin. Paul spoke of this in Romans 7.

    But Luther came up with a different solution. Instead of an actual encounter (which would be labeled as mystical and rejected by most people) with Jesus Christ...he made up a philosophy based on a human belief. THAT is something everyone can do (and thus avoiding the "mystical" label). As in...I believe I am saved by my choosing Christ to be MY personal sacrifice for sins I am doing right now..."so now I can justify myself and call myself saved...and you can do that too if you choose to." It was inevitable that someone somewhere would come up with this idea. It just so happened that the printing press and the political climate were just right in order to bring this agenda forward in what seemed like a divine timing. And I do believe that it was so promoted and so timed....as God's sending great delusion among they who don't love the truth...that they should believe a lie.

    What is lost in this scheme is truth, honesty, humility, and the fear of the Lord. These cannot come through such a ritual and remain part of our character. Something must be forsaken to arrive at this new religious certainty.

    But I ask you...where are the signs, the power of such a renewed fellowship with God. Where is the power that raised Jesus from the dead? Where is the holiness?

    So we see people half-converted....consecrated to some degree...but never coming to the full surrender so that God would empower by His grace. Always learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth. We would seem to have the expectation of salvation but without the power of it. Having a form of godliness but denying the power of it.

    We were warned of this in the last times.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  10. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    What is the lie that people accept in order to enter into delusion?

    The rejection of basic righteousness. The rejection of a comparative rightness of behaviour over all of mankind. God so loved the world...not just an exclusive group that claims Him for themselves.

    There is a popular slogan which shows the depth of the delusion among modern Reformists. And that slogan goes like this..."Good people go to hell, saved people go to heaven". (There is a documentary film made with that exact title.)

    BUT...unless our own basic righteousness (in things like honesty) EXCEEDS that of the Pharisees...we cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    So if we believe we are immune from prosecution of sins...sins we continue to do...then we become LESS righteous than unbelievers.
    If we think that a human belief in Jesus makes us special...without any say from God...then we are allowing delusion into our own souls.
     
  11. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Paul didn't glory in a theology of the cross...but in the power of the cross: a power that freed him completely from the bondage to the flesh.

    The cross of Christ and it's power is necessary in order for us to enter into Christ. We can't go into Christ sin and all. Sin is dealt with at the cross. Being dead to sin is a prerequisite to being alive to God. There is no such thing as a sinful holiness.

    So then a theology that sees only the benefits to a sin covering...but without the dealing with the carnal nature that desires to sin...and even makes us incapable of a life that is without sin...such a theology is heretical in that it seeks to take all without giving anything.

    The new covenant is God's all in exchange for HIS all. An exchanged life. But if we keep back our own lives even while seeking to have His new life as a back-up....we forego on the covenant. God's covenants are always conditional on obedience. The obedience of faith. We have faith in God so as to turn over our lives to Him so that even when we find that we are crucified...yet we look to Him to live His life through us. And this by a faith that works in love.

    So then the kingdom of God is very costly to us. It costs us everything. Yet it is freely given to us. I think that's where the confusion begins.
     
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  12. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Well-Known Member

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    They have empowered themselves, such people only talk at you and not too you I have found.

    They will say they can do this or that and I say who is it that you are talking to ? me or God ? are they are talking to me ? well in fact they are telling me ? but I could say, would you point such out to God ? or is it that you are telling God. or is it that they have found in the Bible some passage to use to back this gibberish up, but this has only been twisted to suit their agenda demanding all to swallow it, not to mention when I say look here bro the Bible condemns what they say. when you understand there are passages that condemn them in there agenda, but they only claim that this trumps it all regardless, because they are idolising such, only because it's feeding their own ego and they love it. like a dog that's of the leash running loose.

    One was boasting to me about how one can be a Sodomite and enter into Heaven, no I said one as such can not even enter into the Kingdom of God, because the Bible points out who can enter and who can not. he claims to be born again and that gives him the rights to heaven, but the fact is that he is not truly born again or he would not be under the power of such Sin. he is under the power of Sin because he does not recognise Sin as he is claiming that because he is in such a position, that he can just sweep such away as he is going to Heaven regardless because 'he' clams to be saved. but the wagers of sin is death.

    Not to mention such a one claims that we are all Sinners and that Jesus died for all, well well well, I thought that one must be truly Saved or is it that all are saved ? even the Satanist and the Devil himself ?:rolleyes:

    When one is truly born again one is not under the power of Sin, because such a one can identify such is a Sin and deal with it. on the other hand one is a Slave to Sin and is lost.
     
  13. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    I see the Christian life as a transitioning into a new reality. A new power and life. I see salvation as a process of discovering how deep the sin goes....together with how effective the cross of Christ is. Just look at Romans 7 and the testimony of Paul.

    So then a born again person is only half-way there. Christ in you is the hope of glory...not the glory itself. One must run the proper course to find the victory. And that course is by moving further into Christ.

    Paul exhorts us...who are already Christian.....to put on Christ. This is a further step. We are to put on the "new man" who is already holy.

    Putting something on is very different from having something within you. Nobody puts on a sandwich and nobody eats a coat.

    But these very different actions get confused as being the same.
     
  14. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Well-Known Member

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    I would say that with the seeking soul, Christ can come to you much in the same way as it was with Saul.
    Such hit me with a bang ! I was blown away and I knew Christ Jesus directly at that moment, I knew of him before this but now I know him personally, who he truly is in fact without a shadow of doubt at all.
    I had faith before no doubt but this is solid faith that can move mountains, but one still grows regardless from that point on regardless God willing.

    The power of Sin is exposed now all the more, as to the light one has and as such one does have much more power over the temptations of Sin, that does not mean that I don't Sin as I know that I do as I am human and as all the Saints confess the same, but it's not grave Sin that has the key of power over one because one understands such, because such is now truly exposed, your eyes and ears can see and hear, they are not stopped up or blind to such, as the Bible points out of some.

    I believe that once one is truly born again you are save and I do not believe that one can fall back, as Jesus says no one can snatch them out of his hand.

    As for putting on Christ well yes as to your faith, a baptised Christian can do that and I encourage such of one.
    From the point of one saved I think it's standing up with Christ in you, I have ate the sandwich and it's going too God willing to give me the strength to carry it through come hell or high water.

    I know of one who says he is born again and even demands this to all ( a dictator type ) but I know he has much faith and is well versed but I also know that he has doubts and is floating about and making demands that are not truly valid, due to his being indoctrinated by others, not to mention will not listen and has whims and stupid desires controlling him. he may be born again, but it's not of the holy Spirit, born again of a religion ? one may say.:confused:
     
  15. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    The bible calls this...the faith OF Christ. Not just a surmising or a speculative belief. But a living faith based on an actual encounter. It is an important distinction.

    I see this stage as a struggle walk...where there are 2 forces trying to pull us away from each other....the flesh and the Spirit. The race is only beginning. We win battles and lose some. But the war is the Lord's for they who trust in God.

    We can be seduced away from the truth...and restored again. I don't see a "done deal" status while we live here on earth. We are "in play" and everything we do has consequences.
     
  16. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    A theology is mainly a religious philosophy. Too often this approach obscures the reality of what God has done and is doing in favour of a theoretical affirmation that really has no meaning.

    Was Jesus theologically crucified at Golgotha? Were the soldiers that crucified Him theologians?

    Luther described an "alien righteousness" as a righteousness given to a person because he believes in the cross of Christ as somehow being beneficial to believe in.

    But that's not the way righteousness works...not even the righteousness of faith.

    Luther's idea of the cross is "alien" to the bible. So in that way he got the terminology right.

    So then Luther invented a very human "righteousness" through adherence of certain beliefs...as if a formulated belief system is what saves you. And many in the churches hold to this errant view.

    But no one is made righteous by adherence to a belief system. You are not more saved by sitting on a pew than on a park bench. So then error came into the church...ironically...as a "theological" error.

    So when you see the word "theological" it is mainly referring to a described error on how people misunderstand God.

    The cross of Christ is not a theological concept....but the power that brings us to death. We go from death to life. And that life is real also. It isn't a theological life.

    Again...theologians are postulating religious philosophies...and we are to avoid these. Vain philosophies are such because they are attempts to justify people in their sins.

    Colossians 2:8-23
    8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
  17. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Ha! Kind of like politics. Say (print) something enough times and the masses eat it all up and think they "have it down" and...stop there. Like a bunch of clones, really...empty sayings, empty faith...
     
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  18. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    But then there is mass reformation...which sounds like a good thing. But we have been going down rabbit trails for centuries...getting mixed up in the great delusions of our time.

    I believe it's time for truth and clarity. Allowing the "reformation" to be seen for what is really is...a blip in history where the church got side-tracked by an evil monk who drank too much and hated too many people (the Jews and anyone who met in homes).

    Luther represents human logic...not divine truth.
     
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  19. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    I was "confirmed" in a Lutheran church when I was young. I actually attended all of the confirmation classes, but I don't remember much of what I leaned. What is it about Luther's theology specifically that you object to, or is it his theology as a whole?

    Edit: I see that we posted at the same time. I'll read what you wrote in your last post. Also, I hadn't read all of your posts in this thread when I asked this question. So, I'll read them and see what you have to say.
     
  20. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    The whole premise of Luther's protests is based on a very human logic. It surmises that we already have everything from God that we will ever have...we just need to redefine things...which is what he did.

    So then a Christian becomes just a forgiven sinner. As if Jesus' power over sin was but a myth. And look at how many people rely on that very same human logic...a logic that excludes the God who does the impossible.

    Luther's idea of the cross sought to overturn 1,500 years of church history. Instead of becoming righteous in Christ he opposed that idea with one of his own calling it "alien righteousness"....meaning that God can't see our true state.

    But Luther's scheme is easily refuted if you know the difference between what God can do and what men can do.

    Luther plays on the ignorance of people.

    Remember that the Holocaust of the Jews was made possible because of Luther's hatred towards them. Luther also had Anabaptists burned at the stake. And he also championed a violent defense of his teachings in other ways...through the civil authorities.

    History will show that Luther was far from being a man of God.
     
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