Mary the Queen of Heaven?

[Raccoon1010]

Dear members,

I do not desire any to blaspheme against the holy sacred areas of God, his holy and sacred word or Christ.

First, in honest and truth from our lord, his father and our king, Heavenly Father, as king of kings, lord of lords, I will address the issues here from our kind and loving Lord and God.

Mary, mother of Jesus is honored as the woman blessed by our heavenly father to be the only mother of the Messiah, Jesus the Christ, as the bearer of the son of God. Found worthy by our father in heaven to care for him as a child and youth. The mother found with child of the holy ghost. The body of Christ, from God our father.

The holy christ, being the spirit together with the father. The spirit of Christ as the lord Jesus, being the word of God, having created all things, and without the word nothing was made.

Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother being as family for the holy spirit heavenly family before we were given bodies to live here on earth.

Heavenly mother, the holy spirit of mother of heavenly family.

Heavenly father, the holy spirit of father of heavenly family.

The sacred holy body of Christ, of Heavenly Father, in body sacred here on earth.

Found with blessed Mary, mother of Jesus of Nazareth, to care for him, in loving kindness. Suffering with Joseph to raise and care for him, being sought and persecuted in their time here on earth.

God the Father and our lord, the word of God, gave commandment, in loving word, to not taste, nor touch the fruit of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, as it would be death. And yet, by that old serpent's deceptions, they did eat of it.

They became fallen. And because of their disobedience a Christ was needed to redeem them from their fallen state. To reclaim them and their descendants from death, hell, to raise us from the dead and back to life and to believe on him, Jesus the Christ, to hope to be accepted into heaven someday.

God the father had created all things good as written of in Genesis.

And after Adam and Eve and surely their descendants inherited death, the love of father and son in heaven was made known to us, his human creations, thru Christ our Lord here on earth 2000 years ago. To carry our dead bodies, perhaps having dead spirits too, back to them in heaven, weeping over us, God and his heavenly family, angels of heaven. And made alive again to live in peace again, together as family.

Heavenly father and heavenly mother are "our family heavenly parents".

Joseph and Mary, honored to raise and care for our savior and Christ. The man, Emanuel, which means, " God among us", with body here on earth.

...

If you can get thru a discussion of Mary, and/or heavenly mother, holy angels without speaking evil, and leaving the holy sacred areas of God's word honored, I am made happy. And perhaps others also.

Having a family has always been our God's desire. Happiness, love, peace, life are his spirit.

Thank You,

Devin

 

[Brakelite]

NOBODY in Heaven is "dead", my faithless friend . . .

You are right. There's nobody in heaven who is dead. And there's nobody alive until the resurrection.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You are right. There's nobody in heaven who is dead. And there's nobody alive until the resurrection.

Thank you for yet another man-made SDA invention . . .

“Sol Sleep” was invented by the SDA because of the Biblical perversions of your founders. Heaven does NOT contain dead or “sleeping” people. People aren’t “asleep” in their graves. The ashes of those who have been cremated are not “asleep”. Servicemen who were buried at sea are not “sleeping”.

Rev. 6:9-10
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Ummm, does THAT sound like they’re “asleep”??

Acts 7:54-59
And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
Gee – did Jesus put Steven to sleep after receiving his spirit?

In 2nd Kings 2:11 we read, Elijah being taken up into Heaven the Bible says. It says NOTHING about Ellijah being in an “unconscious” state . . .

In Matthew 17:1-4, we read about the Transfiguration, where the Apostles witnessed Jesus, along with Moses and Ellijah in a glorified states conversing with each other.
Does THAT sound like they were taking a nap??

John 11:11-15 – Jesus tells His disciples, "After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his DEATH, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
14 So then he (Jesus) told them plainly, “LAZARUS IS DEAD, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Notice how Jesus uses “Sleep” in a metaphorical sense? When His disciples question Him – He clarifies that fact that Lazarus was DEAD. Jesus rose Lazarus from DEATH – not “Sleep”. He only used the word “Sleep” in a figurative sense . . .

Figurative or metaphorical and inclusive language is used throughout the Scriptures.
Matt. 2:3
“When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and ALL of Jerusalem with him”

Sooo, EVERY single person was “Troubled” about Jesus being born?
ALL of the babies were “Troubled”?
ALL of the sick and bedridden were “Troubled”?
ALL of the severely mentally-impaired were “Troubled”?
ALL of those in a coma or unconscious state were “Troubled”?
How about the UNBORN?
They're part of "ALL", are they not??

If NOT - then it does NOT actually mean "ALL". Just like the figurative sense of “Sleep” doesn’t actuallky mean “Sleep”. It means DEATH . . .

In John 10:9, Jesus says “I am the GATE.”
Does this mean that Jesus is an actual “Gate” with hinges and screws?
OR, is he using figurative language?

In John 6:35, Jesus says, “I am the BREAD of life.”
Is Jesus a loaf of bread or a dinner roll?
OR, is he using metaphorical language?

John 15:1 says that Jesus said: "I am the true VINE" and my Father is the GARDENER."
Do you actually believe that Jesus is a grapevine?
OR, is he again using figurative language?

The problem here is that the SDA can’t tell the difference . . .

 

[Brakelite]

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

So you believe the above is literal and evidence of "living souls" in heaven, while you accept these below as metaphorical... you pick and choose what suits your argument.

People aren’t “asleep” in their graves

The problem here is that the SDA can’t tell the difference . . .

The problem is that you find it impossible to actually discuss scripture without bringing up strawmen.

In 2nd Kings 2:11 we read, Elijah being taken up into Heaven the Bible says. It says NOTHING about Ellijah being in an “unconscious” state . . .

Obviously not. He didn't die did he.

In Matthew 17:1-4, we read about the Transfiguration, where the Apostles witnessed Jesus, along with Moses and Ellijah in a glorified states conversing with each other.
Does THAT sound like they were taking a nap??

Clearly both alive. Elijah the representative of all those living when Jesus returns and glorified without seeing death, Moses the representative of all those who will be resurrected from the grave, and anywhere else they ended up in death... like Moses.

John 11:11-15 – Jesus tells His disciples, "After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his DEATH, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
14 So then he (Jesus) told them plainly, “LAZARUS IS DEAD, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Notice how Jesus uses “Sleep” in a metaphorical sense? When His disciples question Him – He clarifies that fact that Lazarus was DEAD. Jesus rose Lazarus from DEATH – not “Sleep”. He only used the word “Sleep” in a figurative sense . . .

Jesus used the words death and sleep interchangeably as they meant the same thing. They sleep BECAUSE of their hope of a future resurrection. The second death is not a sleep. There will be no resurrection from that.

Figurative or metaphorical and inclusive language is used throughout the Scriptures.
Matt. 2:3
“When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and ALL of Jerusalem with him”

Sooo, EVERY single person was “Troubled” about Jesus being born?
ALL of the babies were “Troubled”?
ALL of the sick and bedridden were “Troubled”?
ALL of the severely mentally-impaired were “Troubled”?
ALL of those in a coma or unconscious state were “Troubled”?
How about the UNBORN?
They're part of "ALL", are they not??

If NOT - then it does NOT actually mean "ALL". Just like the figurative sense of “Sleep” doesn’t actuallky mean “Sleep”. It means DEATH . . .

In John 10:9, Jesus says “I am the GATE.”
Does this mean that Jesus is an actual “Gate” with hinges and screws?
OR, is he using figurative language?

In John 6:35, Jesus says, “I am the BREAD of life.”
Is Jesus a loaf of bread or a dinner roll?
OR, is he using metaphorical language?

John 15:1 says that Jesus said: "I am the true VINE" and my Father is the GARDENER."
Do you actually believe that Jesus is a grapevine?
OR, is he again using figurative language?

You self righteously and falsely accuse me of not recognising metaphorical language here, and yet you believe there are untold billions of souls living under a literal altar in heaven calling for revenge? And this is what you would likely call a bible study. You want me to bring up all the evidence that people do not go straight to heaven when they die but await the resurrection?

 

[BreadOfLife]

So you believe the above is literal and evidence of "living souls" in heaven, while you accept these below as metaphorical... you pick and choose what suits your argument.

So, you actually believe that Jesus is a Gate, a loaf of Bread and a Grapevine??

You really believe that somebody shook Moses awake so he could show up at the Transfiguration, only to go back to “sleep”??

You believe that literally ALL of Jerusalem was “greatly troubled” about the birth of Jesus??

Whether YOU believe in it or not - Rev. 6:9-11 shows that there LIVE souls are in Heaven.
They are NOT asleep . . .

The problem is that you find it impossible to actually discuss scripture without bringing up strawmen.

"Strawmen"??
HOW can the act explaininig the Biblical laguages used here be described as "building up Strawmen"??

Talk about grasping at straws . . .

Obviously not. He didn't die did he.

Moses DID (Deut. 34:5).

According to your SDA doctrines – he couldn’t have been at the Transfiguration because he WASN’T asleep . . .

Clearly both alive. Elijah the representative of all those living when Jesus returns and glorified without seeing death, Moses the representative of all those who will be resurrected from the grave, and anywhere else they ended up in death... like Moses.

Again – Moses died (Deut. 34:5).

Soooo, is the Resurrection of the Dead for ALL of the dead – or is it just for some?

Jesus used the words death and sleep interchangeably as THRY MEAN THE SAME THING They sleep BECAUSE of their hope of a future resurrection. The second death is not a sleep. There will be no resurrection from that.

WRONG.

In John 11:11-15, Jesus uses TWO words to describe the condition of Lazarus.
The FIRST one is

κοιμαο
Pronunciation: koy-mah'-o
Definition: 1) to cause to SLEEP, put to sleep 2) metaph. 2a) to STILL, CALM, QUIET 2b) to fall ASLEEP, to SLEEP 2c) to DIE.

koy-mah'-o means, “to SLEEP”. The LAST definition shows that is ALSO used as a synonym for “to DIE”. This is why the disciples thought Jesus was talking about actual sleep (John 11:12).

HOWEVER – Jesus clarifies His position by telling them that He was talking about the DEAZTH of Lazarus, by using the word, αποτηνεσκο (ap-oth-nace'-ko):

αποτηνεσκο
Pronunciation: ap-oth-nace'-ko
Definition: 1) to DIE 1a) of the natural DEATH of man 1b) of the violent DEATH of man or animals 1c) to PERISH by means of something 1d) of trees which dry up, of seeds which ROT when planted 1e) of eternal DEATH, to be subject to eternal misery in hell

There is NO getting around the fact that Jesus was talking about DEATH and not “Sleep” . . .

You self righteously and falsely accuse me of not recognising metaphorical language here, and yet you believe there are untold billions of souls living under a literal altar in heaven calling for revenge? And this is what you would likely call a bible study. You want me to bring up all the evidence that people do not go straight to heaven when they die but await the resurrection?

Um, FIRST of all – Rev. 6:9–11 is ONLY talking about the souls of the MARTYRS. It is NOT talking about ALL who have died in Christ.

Secondly – if YOU don’t understand that millions of souls can “fit” under the altar in Heaven – then you have ZERO grasp of the eternal spiritual realm.

Matt. 19:26, Luke 1:37, Mark 10:27
Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God ALL things are possible.”

 

[Brakelite]

So, you actually believe that Jesus is a Gate, a loaf of Bread and a Grapevine??

You really believe that somebody shook Moses awake so he could show up at the Transfiguration, only to go back to “sleep”??

You believe that literally ALL of Jerusalem was “greatly troubled” about the birth of Jesus??

Whether YOU believe in it or not - Rev. 6:9-11 shows that there LIVE souls are in Heaven.
They are NOT asleep . . .

Okay, millions of martyred people are living under a literal altar in heaven, still pleading for revenge in typical human carnal fashion. Not much of a joyful happy heavenly existence there. Is that their reward for giving their lives for Christ? You are the one who fails to recognise metaphor here: it is similar to the blood of Abel crying out to God from the ground for justice. “And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. ”
Genesis 4:10 KJV
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Here is the first martyr, not under an altar in heaven, but figuratively speaking from the ground where he lay buried.

Again – Moses died (Deut. 34:5).

And was resurrected by the same power that will resurrect you and I at the second coming. I agree they are not sleep.
“Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. ”
Jude 1:9 KJV

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“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. ”
Daniel 12:1 KJV

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“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: ”
1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJV

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“22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. ”
1 Corinthians 15:22-26, 42-44, 51-57 KJV

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The hope of the Christian resurrection has been the hope of the church for 2000 years. It is the Christian hope. Never was it the hope of the Christian Church to go straight to heaven upon death. Relinquishing one's spirit to God at death isn't a living soul. It is merely the life forces that kept the body alive. The body shall sleep the sleep of death and be raised at the second coming and taken to glory with Jesus to live in eternity with Him.



Your English comprehension skills are wanting. Elijah never died but was taken alive into heaven with a glorified body same as Jesus had when He was resurrected. Moses was resurrected and taken to heaven alive, with a glorified body. It isn't difficult.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Okay, millions of martyred people are living under a literal altar in heaven, still pleading for revenge in typical human carnal fashion. Not much of a joyful happy heavenly existence there. Is that their reward for giving their lives for Christ?

EVERYTHING happening in Rev. 6 is taking place in HEAVEN. As a matter of fact – we read in Rev. 4, 5 – the seals of the scrolls are opened up at the very THRONE of God.
Jesus (the Lamb), being the ONLY one worthy enough to open the scrolls.

The Altar that the souls of the martyrs are under is in Heaven.

You are the one who fails to recognise metaphor here: it is similar to the blood of Abel crying out to God from the ground for justice. “And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. ”
Genesis 4:10 KJV
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Here is the first martyr, not under an altar in heaven, but figuratively speaking from the ground where he lay buried.

Ay, yi, yi . . .
Are you serious??

Gen. 4:10
The LORD said, “What have you (Cain) done? Listen! Your brother’s (Abel)’s blood cries out to me from the ground.

Abel was NOT in Heaven because Jesus had not yet died and risen from the dead.

Anyway, according to YOUR aberrant SDA doctrines – neither Abel NOR his blood could have “cried out” because he was “ASLEEP” . . .

And was resurrected by the same power that will resurrect you and I at the second coming. I AGREE THEY ARE NOT SLEEP.

“Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. ”
Jude 1:9 KJV

HUHH??
You AGREE with me that Moses id not asleep?

I thought you said that ALL of the dead are “asleep” until the 2nd Coming?

The hope of the Christian resurrection has been the hope of the church for 2000 years. It is the Christian hope. Never was it the hope of the Christian Church to go straight to heaven upon death. Relinquishing one's spirit to God at death isn't a living soul. It is merely the life forces that kept the body alive. The body shall sleep the sleep of death and be raised at the second coming and taken to glory with Jesus to live in eternity with Him.

The body DIES – period.

Some are buried, where they become worm food . . .
Some are cremated, where they become ASH and are scattered . . ..
Some are chopped up into pieces and discarded . . .

ONE thing for sure is that they are not “asleep”.

Heb. 9:27
Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face JUDGMENT

NOTHING about “sleeping” before judgement.
Not a WORD . . .

Your ENGLISH comprehension skills are wanting. Elijah never died but was taken alive into heaven with a GLORIFIED BODY same as Jesus had when He was resurrected. Moses was resurrected and taken to heaven alive, with a glorified body. It isn't difficult.

WRONG.
English has NOTHING to do with this because it is NOT a Biblical language.

It is YOU who is trapped by a 21st century English understanding of a language and culture from THOUSANDS of years ago.
Time for a Bible and Linguistics Lesson . . .

The Jews got their understanding of “Heaven(s)” from Genesis.

Genesis 1:1
In the Beginning, God created the HEAVENS and the earth.

Their understanding was that God live in or above the highest physical “heavens/sky”.
The Hebrew word for “Heaven” is shamayim:

shamayim
Pronunciation: shaw-mah'-yim shaw-meh'

Definition: 1) HEAVEN, HEAVENS, sky 1a) VISIVLE HEAVENS, sky 1a1) as ABODE OF THE STARS 1a2) as the VISIBLE UNIVERSE, the SKY, ATMOSPJERE etc 1b) Heaven (as the abode of God)

As you can plainly see – the definition for the ”abode of God” is a PHYSICAL understanding – NOT a spiritual one.

Finally – Elijah did NOT have a glorified body like Jesus because the Resurrection hasn’t happened yet.
After going into “shamayim” (the heavens) - He went to the “Bosom of Abraham” (Luke 16:22-31). He was there until Jesus’s Resurrection. His spirit will be joined with his glorified body at the Resurrection of the Dead (1 Thess. 4:16).

 

[David in NJ]

ONE more time, Einstein . . .
Those are SHRINES.

An ALTAR, by definition, is a FLAT surface - like a table, designed for placing ut sacrifices to God on it.

I would say, "Nice try", but you didn't even do that . . .

If you turn away from idols and surrender to CHRIST, HE will wash away your sins.

 

[BreadOfLife]

If you turn away from idols and surrender to CHRIST, HE will wash away your sins.

An “idol’, by definition, is something or someone that is worshipped and placed BEFORE God.

I’ve never been subject to “idols” – and He HAS washed my sins away . . .

 

[David in NJ]

An “idol’, by definition, is something or someone that is worshipped and placed BEFORE God.

I’ve never been subject to “idols” –

Everyone has been subject to idols = so you are wrong to begin with.

and He HAS washed my sins away . . .

If true then,
No need to pray to Mary
No need for you to confess to a priest
No need for the rosaries
No need for the pope
No need for the Vatican
No need for the error of transubstantiation
No need for a false place called purgatory
No need for man-made religion
No need for works to earn salvation

Your only NEED is for you to obey the LORD JESUS CHRIST for Salvation and for the Holy Spirit

 

[BreadOfLife]

Everyone has been subject to idols = so you are wrong to begin with.

Then WHY are you only singling out Catholics, Einstein?

If true then,
a No need to pray to Mary
b. No need for you to confess to a priest
c. No need for the rosaries
d. No need for the pope
e. No need for the Vatican
f. No need for the error of transubstantian
g. No need for a false place called purgtory
h. No need for man-made religion
i. No need for works to earn salvation

a. So, it’s “wrong” to ask a fellow member of the Body of Christ to pray FOR you??
The Bible commands us to do that for each other (James 5:16, 1 John 5:16).

b. Confessing our sins to the Church is sanctioned by Jesus Himself (John 20:21-23, Matt, 16:19, 18:18).
Why would I purposely disobey Him?

c. No need to pray Rosaries – prayers of intercession?
Then, why do YOU ask people to pray when YOU or somebody else is sick or in distress??
Prayerful intercession is our DUTY as Christians.

d. No need for Church leadership??
Then WhY do Non-Catholic churches ALL have leaders?

e. No need for aany headquarters for the Church?
Then WHY do Non-Catholic churches ALL have leaders?

f. No need to believe in or obey Jesus when He gives us His Flesh to eat and Blood to drink (John 6:53-56)?
Not only did the Early Church believe UNANIMOUSLY in the Eucharist – MANY of your Protestant Fathers did as well.

g. Final Purification before entering heaven (Purgatory) was not only UNANIMOUSY taught by the Early Church – it’s Biblical.

h. I completely agree with you about their being NO need for man-made religions.
MY Church, however, was built by Jesus Christ (Matt. 16:18).

i. I ALSO agree with you that NO works can “earn” salvation. However – works are an essential element of Faith. Remember – “belief” isn’t enough (Matt. 25:31-46, James 2:17).. Even the DEMONS do that much (James 2:19).

FAITH– Belief + Works/Obedience

Your only NEED is for you to OBEY the Lord Jesus Christ for Salvation and for the Holy Spirit

Yup, OBEY.

Couldn’t have said it better myself . . .

 

[marks]

The word Antichrist literally means, in place of Christ. Growing up myself within Catholicism and taught by Marist Brothers and priests throughout my young life, I could not avoid the stark reality of Marian devotion replacing Jesus as Mediator. One might argue that Mary is the mediator between man and Jesus, but is such a thing seen as necessary? What is so scary about Jesus that we cannot approach Him directly? What is it that is asked of Him that we believe a mother's intercession is required before He gives us what we need? The so called ministry of Mary itself (not Mary herself as she is still in the grave as far as we know) is antichrist. It is in place of Christ. It has moved Christ to the side and promoted an idol. I dont ever remember any religious instruction directing me to pray to Jesus. The rosary itself focuses on Mary. And the Rosary was our focus. We hung them round our necks.
I understand many, even some on this forum, believe it is Mary herself in visions and appearances around the globe, and that people are being converted as a result. But converted to what? To Jesus? Maybe. To Mary? More likely.

All I can say is, the Holy Spirit lives in me, in Whom I speak with God, not Mary living in me, that's not happening. I have intimacy with God, not Mary.

Much love!