Matthew 19:30

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Bob Estey

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You are seeing it as the similitude (likeness) of man created in the image of God. But that likeness is not the message, for Jesus stated it in context as standing between all who were born before salvation, and those after. He was announcing the times of the fulfilment of the promises of God--from the apex.
Compare what I am saying to this:

[18] When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it.
[19] And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it. Ezekiel 33:18-19 RSV
 

ScottA

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I believe you'll find my observation is an accurate one.
I do, but only in the trenches of this world and its limited view. The greater view and word from God however, was to be a revelation from His perspective as an insight, not to the things of this world, but occurring in heaven.
 

ScottA

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Compare what I am saying to this:

[18] When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it.
[19] And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it. Ezekiel 33:18-19 RSV
Words for those in the trenches, indeed.
 

Bob Estey

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I do, but only in the trenches of this world and its limited view. The greater view and word from God however, was to be a revelation from His perspective as an insight, not to the things of this world, but occurring in heaven.
I think much of what the Lord taught us for practical things. Look at the commandments. People think if they rob a bank they will burn in hell forever, but I think the purpose of the commandment (Do no steal) is so that we don't spend decades in prison.
 

ScottA

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I think much of what the Lord taught us for practical things. Look at the commandments. People think if they rob a bank they will burn in hell forever, but I think the purpose of the commandment (Do no steal) is so that we don't spend decades in prison.
Such a perspective does not speak of all that the scriptures points to (i.e. the law and the prophets and every promise of God), as if all that life and God have to offer is our life in the flesh under the sun.
 

Bob Estey

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Such a perspective does not speak of all that the scriptures points to (i.e. the law and the prophets and every promise of God), as if all that life and God have to offer is our life in the flesh under the sun.
If you were in the Lord's shoes and wanted people to behave, perhaps the most effective way would be to threaten an eternity in hell if they didn't.
 

ScottA

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If you were in the Lord's shoes and wanted people to behave, perhaps the most effective way would be to threaten an eternity in hell if they didn't.
I am not sure what your point is.

But it sounds like your idea of what the world actually is, is off. The world is not some appendage to God's heaven where people decide their eternal fate by their works, as it may seem. But is the result of all that was before the foundation of the world--before the world was, making manifest everything everyone ever believed as evidence presented before the Judgement. Of which there are only two possible outcomes: light or darkness, life or death, blessing or cursing--which God divided beginning the first day.
 
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Bob Estey

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I am not sure what your point is.

But it sounds like your idea of what the world actually is, is off. The world is not some appendage to God's heaven where people decide their eternal fate by their works, as it may seem. But is the result of all that was before the foundation of the world--before the world was, making manifest everything everyone ever believed as evidence presented before the Judgement. Of which there are only two possible outcomes: light or darkness, life or death, blessing or cursing--which God divided beginning the first day.
My point is that the Lord has to teach us not to sin. Which one of us is going to tell him how to do that?
 

Fred J

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Yes, "first" refers to Israel, But they did not accept. They will be last to be restored..
The last refers to the Gentiles, who were restored first.
Roman 11:
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Jesus had Jewish disciples and followers according to the Gospel in the Holy Bible.

Even He sent them two by two to proclaim the Kingdom at hand and perform miracles.

Jesus also had many of His Jewish disciples stop following Him at one point of His teaching.

And in the day of Pentecost there were more than the 11 disciples, to cast a lot on the chosen few to replace Judas.

You're very close but doesn't add up based on the saying of Jesus, thank you.

Shalom in the name of Messiah Jesus
 

Triumph1300

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You're very close but doesn't add up based on the saying of Jesus, thank you.

Oh, you are welcome! No problem.
Well, it is actually referring to the pharisees.
(The Jewish "big shots" at the time, the ones trying to kill him and the ones telling people he worked miracles by satan)
 

Davy

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So what is this all about?:

But many that are first will be last, and the last first. Matt 19:30 RSV

Understanding that is not meant for those not of Christ's very elect. Likewise with the parable of the laborers of the field, and the parable of the tares of the field.
 

Bob Estey

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Understanding that is not meant for those not of Christ's very elect. Likewise with the parable of the laborers of the field, and the parable of the tares of the field.
How about this:

[18] When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it.
[19] And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it. Ezekiel 33:18-19 RSV
 

Davy

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Matt 13:12-15
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, 'By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
KJV


Mark 4:10-13
10 And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable.

11 And He said unto them, 'Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God:
but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

13 And He said unto them,
"Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?"
KJV
 

Fred J

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Oh, you are welcome! No problem.
Well, it is actually referring to the pharisees.
(The Jewish "big shots" at the time, the ones trying to kill him and the ones telling people he worked miracles by satan)
Okay, i get your point, thanks.

Now, before verse 30, in verse 27, Peter spoke about giving up everything and following Jesus, what shall they have in return?

Verse 28 & 29, Jesus answers all that they will have in return, ending by inheriting everlasting life.

By concluding in verse 30, isn't it those who with Him first and gave up everything shall be last to receive towards the end of their lives?

And those who give up everything, even to the last minute of their lives (like the thief on the cross), shall be first to receive?

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ from the FATHER
 
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Davy

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Scripture like Matthew 19:30 is about the idea that many are called, but few are chosen.

Here is an example by Jesus of the 'chosen' at the end of this world when the coming false Messiah shows up in Jerusalem...

Matt 24:23-24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders;
insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
KJV

Firstly, that Matt.24:23-26 Scripture is about a singular Antichrist appearing at the end of this world, working those "great signs and wonders" to deceive the whole world (see Revelation 13:4-8, and Rev.13:11-14 also).

But per Jesus in the above, He shows it will NOT be possible for His "very elect" to be deceived by that coming false-Messiah. Why? Because Christ's very elect are 'chosen', which means they do have eyes to see, and ears to hear, and are given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. That is what the idea of God's sealing for the end is about, like in Rev.9 that says only those without... God's seal will be subject to the locust stinging.

This is why Apostles Paul and Peter issued so many warnings to brethren against falling away and to not be deceived. They understood this difference between those 'called' only vs. those 'chosen.
 

Titus

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So what is this all about?:

But many that are first will be last, and the last first. Matt 19:30 RSV
The Jews are first the gentiles are last.
The Jews rejected Jesus but the gentiles accepted Him therefore the reversal.

Luke 13:28-30,
- There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God
And yourselves thrust out
They will come from the east and the west from the north and the south and sit down in the kingdom of God
And indeed there are last who will be first and there are first who will be last
 

Fred J

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The Jews are first the gentiles are last.
The Jews rejected Jesus but the gentiles accepted Him therefore the reversal.

Luke 13:28-30,
- There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God
And yourselves thrust out
They will come from the east and the west from the north and the south and sit down in the kingdom of God
And indeed there are last who will be first and there are first who will be last
i also take note for some of you, it refers to the Jews first and the Gentiles last.

This verse Jesus addressed to the Jews who were leaders of Israel in disbelieve and contending Him in Israel.

And, also those who believe and rejoice merely based on all the glorious things that were done by Jesus in Israel.

That's why He said, when the Master of the house shall be risen up the door will be shut to these in Israel, who've heard and seen already. (verse 25)

Therefore the Gospel will depart from them in Israel, and apparently will go to the Gentiles and Jews outside of Israel, who've not heard and seen.

Since He was addressing to the Jews in Israel, was He not referring to the remnant of Jews saved by grace in Israel shall be first? (Romans 11:6)

Also on the day of Pentecost, there were also devout Jews from east to the west, and north to the south present and were saved added to the remnant as well?

Wasn't Paul a chosen 'instrument' of Christ, who will bear His name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel outside of Israel?

Since he is the most wanted fugitive in Israel, where at one time a basket was used to have him escape from Israel?


And, finally until the fullness of Gentiles be come in, and so all Israel shall be saved, aren't they the last?

Again apparently scripturally, when the Gospel is done with the Gentiles and the fullness of them be come in already.

Finally, there'll be 'two witnesses' sent to Israel and will minister to the Jews there during the reign of 'anti-Christ'.

By these, how can we testify the Gentiles are last, when all Israel are last to be saved??

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord
 

Bob Estey

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The Jews are first the gentiles are last.
The Jews rejected Jesus but the gentiles accepted Him therefore the reversal.

Luke 13:28-30,
- There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God
And yourselves thrust out
They will come from the east and the west from the north and the south and sit down in the kingdom of God
And indeed there are last who will be first and there are first who will be last
How about this:

[18] When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it.
[19] And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it. Ezekiel 33:18-19 RSV
 

Titus

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i also take note for some of you, it refers to the Jews first and the Gentiles last.

This verse Jesus addressed to the Jews who were leaders of Israel in disbelieve and contending Him in Israel.

And, also those who believe and rejoice merely based on all the glorious things that were done by Jesus in Israel.

That's why He said, when the Master of the house shall be risen up the door will be shut to these in Israel, who've heard and seen already. (verse 25)

Therefore the Gospel will depart from them in Israel, and apparently will go to the Gentiles and Jews outside of Israel, who've not heard and seen.

Since He was addressing to the Jews in Israel, was He not referring to the remnant of Jews saved by grace in Israel shall be first? (Romans 11:6)

Also on the day of Pentecost, there were also devout Jews from east to the west, and north to the south present and were saved added to the remnant as well?

Wasn't Paul a chosen 'instrument' of Christ, who will bear His name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel outside of Israel?

Since he is the most wanted fugitive in Israel, where at one time a basket was used to have him escape from Israel?


And, finally until the fullness of Gentiles be come in, and so all Israel shall be saved, aren't they the last?

Again apparently scripturally, when the Gospel is done with the Gentiles and the fullness of them be come in already.

Finally, there'll be 'two witnesses' sent to Israel and will minister to the Jews there during the reign of 'anti-Christ'.

By these, how can we testify the Gentiles are last, when all Israel are last to be saved??

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord
Hello Fred J,
Jesus preached to the Jews first, they were first told to...
Mark 1:14-15,
- now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God and saying, the time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand repent ye and believe the gospel

The Jews were the first to hear the new gospel of Christ and the first who were taught about the kingdom of God being ready to be established.

Matthew 15:24,
- then Jesus said to the women I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel

Matthew 10:6,
- Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican James the son of Alphaeus and Lebbaeus whose surname was Thaddaeus, Simon the Canaanite and Judas Iscariot who also betrayed Him, these twelve Jesus sent forth and commanded them saying,
Go not into the way of the gentiles and into the city of the samaritans enter ye not:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel,

- and as ye go preach saying the kingdom of heaven is at hand,
heal the sick cleanse the lepers raise the dead, cast out devils freely ye have received freely give provide neither gold nor silver nor brass in your purses

The Jews were first taught about Jesus and the coming of His kingdom.
Some did believe but not as many as the gentiles that were taught the gospel last.

The rejection of the jews opened access for the gentiles to the new testament gospel,
Acts 13:46,
  - then Paul and Barnabus waxed bold and said it was nessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you(Jews) but seeing ye put it from you and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life lo we turn to the gentiles

Romans 11:12-15,
- now if the gentiles were enriched because the people of Israel turned down Gods offer of salvation think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it
 
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