Ministering Spirits ignored

[Earburner]

I am not trying to prove or disprove anything but the verses you quote in Timbo 6:13-16 actually do the opposite of what you are trying to proclaim **

I assume you are using the KJV (which I do also) and they have a tendency to put a trinitarian slant in many areas. Right or wrong…. it is not up to them (KJV) or us to slant one way or the other…. We just see how the Bible fits together and believe the divine revelation given to the men of God…. God will tell us what He wants us to know so we don’t have to guess or squeeze scripture to see what we believe.



Regarding the King of Kings Lord of Lords

Ezr 7:12 – Artaxerxes is called King of Kings by Nebuchadnezzar

Eze 26:7 – God calls Nebuchadnezzar King of Kings…. and again in Dan 2:37. And Nebuchadnezzar called Daniel a God of gods.

Neither of those make Nebuchadnezzar Jesus …or Daniel God.
Likewise, because the same title is used for two individuals does not mean they are somehow one being.

While the title King of Kings and Lord of Lords is attributed to Christ it is an ascription… assigned to the greatest of the best. In the Semitic languages the genitive case was often used to express the fact that something was the best.

In today’s vernacular we may use the G.O.A.T. or even something similar such as the “sale of all sales” the “catch of all catches” … etc

Several of the other versions are more accurate in their layout…. I have included two along with the Peshitta.



NIV

1Ti 6:11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness.

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

1Ti 6:13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Ti 6:15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.



NASB95

1Ti 6:13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,

1Ti 6:14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Ti 6:15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.



Peshitta (from Aramaic) (500 A.D.) verses 13-16

I charge you in the presence of God, the giver of life to all, and before Jesus Christ, who gave a good testimony before Pontius Pilate that you obey this charge without spot and without stain until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is to be revealed in his due time.

Blessed and almighty God, the king of king and Lord of Lords who alone has immortality dwelling in light which no man can approach, and whom no man has seen, nor can see; to him be honor and dominion forever and ever Amen.


**The reason these verses do not support your trinity theory is because there are clearly two beings involved: God and Jesus Christ. God is the blessed and only ruler whom no one has seen….and He will bring about Christ’s return. If they were relating to the triune, the verses would not differentiate between the two.

You are coming at me assuming that I am a Trinitarian, when I am not. I adhere to an Amillennial-Binitarian view.

You didn't hear my words: By the Spirit of Jesus, having God the Father dwelling within Him, it fully describes the Godhead of God the Father and His Son together, as being One IN Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 6:14-16
[14].....until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[15] Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; [16] Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light [of the Father] which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

God the Father, who is Eternal/Everlasting, does not need or require immortality. However, Jesus in His New resurrected life OF A NEW CREATION, being of "flesh and bone", sustained by His Spirit, did need immortality.
Edit:
 Revelation 17[14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful

Revelation 19
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

[Wrangler]

I adhere to an Amillennial-Binitarian view.

I kind of wish such distinctions were available with one's name. "Christian" is often a bit too general.

I can figure out Binartarian but don't grasp Amillennial as a major doctrinal point.

 

[Wrangler]

You didn't hear my words: By the Spirit of Jesus, having God the Father dwelling within Him, it fully describes the Godhead of God the Father and His Son together, as being One IN Holy Spirit.

And doesn't think Oneness Doctrine mean this same Holy Spirit is in us all, thereby making us gods?

 

[face2face]

No Christ?? What did you think the symbolic Tree of Life is? A literal fruit tree?

1 Timothy 6:14-16
By the Spirit of Jesus, having God the Father dwelling within Him, it fully describes the Godhead of God the Father and His Son together, as being One IN Holy Spirit.

[14].....until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[15] Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[16] Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen

Jesus Himself is that Immortal Potentate King of kings, and Lord of lords.

It's so disappointing you are unable to speak to the text. Sad really.

 

[Earburner]

It's so disappointing you are unable to speak to the text. Sad really.

It's far from being sad for me, because I don't operate with only the text through scholarly wisdom.
John 16
[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth ["I am...the truth..."], is come, he will guide you into ALL truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
1 Corinthians 2[5] That your faith should NOT stand in the wisdom of men, but [rather] in the power of God

 

[face2face]

It's far from being sad for me, because I don't operate with only the text through scholarly wisdom.
John 16
[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth ["I am...the truth..."], is come, he will guide you into ALL truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
1 Corinthians 2[5] That your faith should NOT stand in the wisdom of men, but [rather] in the power of God

As I said earlier, the thread is discussing passages from Genesis that show the Elohim's involvement with Adam and Eve, maybe you think you can carry your false teachings accross from another thread. Happy for you to comment on Genesis 3:22 and explain your Trinity there. See how you go!

 

[face2face]

Genesis 3:24

Who drove Adam & Eve out of the Garden?

Genesis 3:24 When he drove the man out, he placed on the eastern side of the orchard in Eden angelic sentries who used the flame of a whirling sword to guard the way to the tree of life.

Clearly they need to be compelled to leave!

We have already established this couldn't be God as His Brilliance would consume them...so who?

Also notable the Angelic beings to protect the way.

Are we seeing a theme here?

 

[Earburner]

As I said earlier, the thread is discussing passages from Genesis that show the Elohim's involvement with Adam and Eve, maybe you think you can carry your false teachings accross from another thread. Happy for you to comment on Genesis 3:22 and explain your Trinity there. See how you go!

For the sake of repetition, I don't believe in the trinity doctrine.

I adhere to an Amillennial- Binitarian view point, of which is indeed scriptural and spiritual, but contrary to most professing christians who are trinitarians, as well as those who view Jesus as having no pre-existence at all.
1 Cor. 2:9-16
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[GEN2REV]

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are SINGULAR!

Jesus is God!

No offense intended at all, but there are so many out there like yourself who intend to defend the trinity while actually supporting all opposition to it.

I totally agree with you that Jesus is God, but the official definition of the trinity is 3 separate, different persons.

"3 separate, different persons."

There is absolutely no way that those kinds of attributes can be made into a singular.

If they were 3 aspects of one person, then ok.

3 characteristics of one person, sure.

No matter who you have heard claim this, or how many times, there is just no way to make this True.

 

[Tommy Cool]

You are coming at me assuming that I am a Trinitarian, when I am not. I adhere to an Amillennial-Binitarian view.

Sorry if I misunderstood. After reading through your post I see where you are coming from.

 

[Helen]

I get people will see what they see, but surely there comes a time when you get a verse as clear as Genesis 3:22 where the possibilities cannot be anything but Angels speaking.

How can they believe A&E could ever become part of the Trinity? Or, for that matter imply their Trinity can experience evil and sin? I mean, it's as though the text no longer matters, and they will force upon an understanding at their will and pleasure? If not, ignore it because it doesn't fit!

What frustrates me is how do you communicate that Yahweh Elohim in that verse and within the broader context is speaking to the Angels and their work in creation and the training of the first pair.

Does the Trinitarian actually believe God was walking in the Garden after their sin? That Adam & Eve could stand in the very presence of Yahweh and His Brilliance? 1 Timothy 6:16 cmp Genesis 3:8

Do they explain this away? and how can you?

The damage they do to John 1 appears to be equally as severe as Genesis 1 - 3

For once I'd love an honest trinitarian come out and say "I dont know" how my doctrine fits those verses. It would be refreshing at the least to have that.

F2F

Just one question-

if as you say it is not the Lord speaking…how do you explain away His Church becoming the Bride of Christ ?
Do you make ‘Christ ‘ an angel there too?

I have no problem in believing what it says .

blessings ….H

 

[Earburner]

Genesis 3:24

Who drove Adam & Eve out of the Garden?

Genesis 3:24 When he drove the man out, he placed on the eastern side of the orchard in Eden angelic sentries who used the flame of a whirling sword to guard the way to the tree of life.

Clearly they need to be compelled to leave!

We have already established this couldn't be God as His Brilliance would consume them...so who?

Also notable the Angelic beings to protect the way.

Are we seeing a theme here?

So it's true, you do see the garden of Eden as an "orchard" of literal fruit trees.
OK, that's fine, but how were any of the supposed real fruit of the two trees able to impart "the knowledge of good and evil", or that of "eternal life"?

My guidance on this, is that neither of the two trees of themselves had supernatural powers, but rather is symbolic of two living personages.

Therefore, it is apparent that the supernatural power of the two symbolic trees possessed abilities to persuade A&E from their God given state of innocense.
One "tree" delivered the judgment of death, and the other would deliver the judgment of eternal life. Unfortunately (or purposely), we all know that the wrong choice was made first.

So now, eternal life had to be kept from A&E and all decendents, UNTIL the plan of God's salvation was to be manifested and enacted.

That plan of action was not fulfilled UNTIL the day of Jesus' first appearance in the flesh. It is He who has now delivered to us the judgment of eternal life (KJV John 3:18).
while the judgment of death still remains.

In order to escape from that first judgment, which is death, we MUST go to the tree of life, who is Jesus and "eat" of it, who is aka "the Bread of Life".(more symbolism).

Therefore, in my understanding, it's simply those two trees are just symbolic language describing the manifestations of two personages (Lucifer* and Jesus) dwelling in the Garden already, influencing A&E to choose either self will or God's will for their lives.
*Note: now satan- after His judgment and being cast out of heaven).

 

[face2face]

Just one question-

if as you say it is not the Lord speaking…how do you explain away His Church becoming the Bride of Christ ?
Do you make ‘Christ ‘ an angel there too?

I have no problem in believing what it says .

blessings ….H

Hi Helen
I believe that is where we go wrong, the angels behold the face of God and what they speak is affectation God speaking. You may have misunderstood the question. Adam & Eve are indeed sybolic of the Bride and Bridegroom - the question was "who drove them out?"...it must have been the angels.

 

[face2face]

So it's true, you do see the garden of Eden as an "orchard" of literal fruit trees.
OK, that's fine, but how were any of the supposed real fruit of the two trees able to impart "the knowledge of good and evil", or that of "eternal life"?

My guidance on this, is that neither of the two trees of themselves had supernatural powers, but rather is symbolic of two living personages.

Wow, surprise surprise we agree on something! Whew!

Therefore, it is apparent that the supernatural power of the two symbolic trees possessed abilities to persuade A&E from their God given state of innocence.
One "tree" delivered the judgment of death, and the other would deliver the judgment of eternal life. Unfortunately (or purposely), we all know that the wrong choice was made first.

So now, eternal life had to be kept from A&E and all decendents, UNTIL the plan of God's salvation was to be manifested and enacted.

Agree.

That plan of action was not fulfilled UNTIL the day of Jesus' first appearance in the flesh. It is He who has now delivered to us the judgment of eternal life (KJV John 3:18).
while the judgment of death still remains.

In order to escape from that first judgment, which is death, we MUST go to the tree of life, who is Jesus and "eat" of it, who is aka "the Bread of Life".(more symbolism).

Therefore, in my understanding, it's simply those two trees are just symbolic language describing the manifestations of two personages (Lucifer* and Jesus) dwelling in the Garden already, influencing A&E to choose either self will or God's will for their lives.
*Note: now satan- after His judgment and being cast out of heaven).

Okay so if you go back and re read my post the question asked was who drove A&E from the garden.
Can you answer this?
F2F

 

[face2face]

I guess the question remains; what are the consequences for those who profess the Trinity if A&E were made in the image of the Elohim (angels) and if Genesis 3:22 reveals it's impossible for a divine being to possess eternal life and be a sinner. This also precludes the idea of a fallen angel.
F2F

 

[Earburner]

Wow, surprise surprise we agree on something! Whew!

Agree.

Okay so if you go back and re read my post the question asked was who drove A&E from the garden.
Can you answer this?
F2F

Before I get into "who drove A&E from the garden", let's go back a little to Gen. 3:7-12, and examine the conversation between Adam and God. It is loaded with our [assumptions of experiences].
[7] And the eyes of them both were opened [their new found self consciousness of being aware of others], and they knew that they were naked [consciously visible to each other as being different]; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

[8] And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:
[A&E didn't see God, but by the sound of His voice, they knew where He was] and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees [other beings?] of the garden [sensing shame].
[9] And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? [Most likely a rhetorical question, to draw him out from hiding, and to provide an opportunity for honesty and confession]
[10] And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid [A&E could see each other and therefore assumed that God could see them also, but they themselves never saw God], because I was naked; and I hid myself [ashamed of himself, no longer clothed in innocence].
[11] And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked [Conscious of self and others]?Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? [Looking for honesty, confession of truth]
[12] And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. [Adam didn't answer God's question, attempting to avoid personal responsibility].

It is apparent that Adam never did see God, but only heard His voice, in His discussion with God. However after Adam answered God's call to him, he did audibly stand in God's invisible presence.

God drove them out of the garden by His Voice.

 

[face2face]

Before I get into "who drove A&E from the garden", let's go back a little to Gen. 3:7-12, and examine the conversation between Adam and God. It is loaded with our [assumptions of experiences].
[7] And the eyes of them both were opened [their new found self consciousness of being aware of others], and they knew that they were naked [consciously visible to each other as being different]; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

[8] And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:
[A&E didn't see God, but by the sound of His voice, they knew where He was] and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees [other beings?] of the garden [sensing shame].
[9] And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? [Most likely a rhetorical question, to draw him out from hiding, and to provide an opportunity for honesty and confession]
[10] And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid [A&E could see each other and therefore assumed that God could see them also, but they themselves never saw God], because I was naked; and I hid myself [ashamed of himself, no longer clothed in innocence].
[11] And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked [Conscious of self and others]?Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? [Looking for honesty, confession of truth]
[12] And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. [Adam didn't answer God's question, attempting to avoid personal responsibility].

It is apparent that Adam never did see God, but only heard His voice, in His discussion with God. However after Adam answered God's call to him, he did audibly stand in God's invisible presence.

God drove them out of the garden by His Voice.

So correct if I'm wrong but you are suggesting God never came into contact with A&E? If so, I can see how this is convenient for you but that's not how the record reads.

Genesis 3:21 The Lord God made garments from skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

You will not be able to maintain your trinitarian position while looking into Genesis 1-3 - its impossible.

F2F

 

[Earburner]

I guess the question remains; what are the consequences for those who profess the Trinity if A&E were made in the image of the Elohim (angels) and if Genesis 3:22 reveals it's impossible for a divine being to possess eternal life and be a sinner. This also precludes the idea of a fallen angel.
F2F

A&E were not divine. They were created as living souls- (nephesh-animal life), being innocent with free will. They did not yet have the knowledge of evil OR GOOD, until they exercised their God given ability to choose.
Without the saving God's Grace, through faith in Jesus, there is no form of eternal life or eternal existence of any kind for all who die without the literal Spirit of Christ.

Angels are not divine:
Satan's judgment came the same day as A&E, being committed to live in/on the earth and in it's atmosphere (to eat dust-Gen. 3:14). He is in "chains of darkness" (void of the Light of God's presence) for the remainder of time, as long as this present earth/globe is kept in existence by God. When it is brought to an end by God, satan's eternal existence ends also, for He has no other place of hope, that he is allowed to go to.

 

[face2face]

A&E were not divine. They were created as living souls- (nephesh-animal life), being innocent with free will. They did not yet have the knowledge of evil OR GOOD, until they exercised their God given ability to choose.
Without the saving God's Grace, through faith in Jesus, there is no form of eternal life or eternal existence of any kind for all who die without the literal Spirit of Christ.

Angels are not divine:
Satan's judgment came the same day as A&E, being committed to live in/on the earth and in it's atmosphere (to eat dust-Gen. 3:14). He is in "chains of darkness" (void of the Light of God's presence) for the remainder of time, as long as this present earth/globe is kept in existence by God. When it is brought to an end by God, satan's eternal existence ends also, for He has no other place of hope, that he is allowed to go to.

Still waiting for you to answer the question. Who clothed them?

 

[Earburner]

So correct if I'm wrong but you are suggesting God never came into contact with A&E? If so, I can see how this is convenient for you but that's not how the record reads.

Genesis 3:21 The Lord God made garments from skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

You will not be able to maintain your trinitarian position while looking into Genesis 1-3 - its impossible.

F2F

I am suggesting that the verse is left open to interpretation by assumption.

Yes, God did make clothes for them of animal skins for them to wear, but it doesn't literally say that HE Himself clothed them, or that anyone else clothed them.

Your interpretation would [read]:
Genesis 3:21 The Lord God made garments from skin for Adam and his wife, and [HE] [put] clothes [on] them.

KJV Gen. 3[21] Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and [HE] [put] clothes [on] them.