Missing from bible

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kiwimac

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Westcott and Hort were men of their time. They were churchmen first and foremost although they had both studied written Greek (classical) as Koine was largely unknown in their time. They were members of the Anglican Broad church movement which sought a middle road between the Anglo-Catholics on the one hand and the Presbyterians on the other.

So much of the bad-mouthing of these two men from the KJV-Only movement comes by way of sometimes crabbed, sometimes amalgamated quotes which make them appear to say things that their practice as Christians showed them to NOT, in fact, believe.

They were neither theological liberals nor fundamentalists.
 
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OzSpen

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Westcott and Hort were men of their time. They were churchmen first and foremost although they had both studied written Greek (classical) as Koine was largely unknown in their time. They were members of the Anglican Broad church movement which sought a middle road between the Anglo-Catholics on the one hand and the Presbyterians on the other.

So much of the bad-mouthing of these two men from the KJV-Only movement comes by way of sometimes crabbed, sometimes amalgamated quotes which make them appear to say things that their practice as Christians showed them to NOT, in fact, believe.

They were neither theological liberals nor fundamentalists.

Mac,

Do you have some quotations from them to demonstrate your points? If they were not theological liberals nor fundamentalists, what did they call their theological positions?

Some of the harshest criticisms against them seem to come from those who judge them for their work as textual critics and what they did to and with the Greek MSS. Do you have any views and citations on this?

Oz
 

kiwimac

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Their theological positions were Broad Church. But let me show you what I mean;
Here is their stated position om scripture:

Here is a growing collection of contextually accurate quotes from Westcott and/or Hort about Scripture:

"The books which are the divine record of Apostolic doctrine cannot be fitly considered apart from the societies in which the doctrine was embodied. A mere series of quotations can convey only an inadequate notion of the real extent and importance of the early testimonies to the genuiness and authority of the New Testament." (History of the Canon of the New Testament, Westcott, p.2)

"a belief in the authority of the books of the New Testament so widely spread throughout the Christian body, so deeply rooted in the inmost consciousness of the Christian Church, so perfectly accordant with all the facts which we do know, can only be explained by admitteing that they are genuine and Apostolic, a written Rule of Christian Faith and Life." (History of the Canon of the New Testament, Westcott, p.14)

“It was natural that a break should intervene between the inspired Scriptures and the spontaneous literature of Christianity, between the teaching of the Apostles and the teaching of the philosophers...” (History of the Canon of the New Testament, Westcott, p.20)

“The same Divine Power which watched over the fragmentary recital of the acts and words of the Lord and His disciples, so that nothing should be wanting which it concerns us to know, acted (as far as we can see) in like manner in preserving for our perpetual instruction those among the writings of the Apostles which had an abiding significance.” (History of the Canon of the New Testament, Westcott, pp. 42, 43)

“Their [the Holy Scriptures] catholicity is the constant mark of their divine origin; and the undesigned harmony which results from every possible combination of their different parts is the surest pledge of their absolute truth.” (History of the Canon of the New Testament, Westcott, p. 46)

“The testimony of the Apostolic Fathers is not however confined to the recognition of the several types of Christianity which are preserved in the Canonical Scriptures: they confirm the genuineness and authority of the books themselves.” (History of the Canon of the New Testament, Westcott, p. 47)

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"My design in all change has been to place in a clearer light the great laws of the interpretation of Holy Scripture, which (as I believe) alone vindicate most completely its claim to be considered as a message of God through men and to men." (Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, Westcott, preface to the second edition)

“At the same time, it is gratifying to see the evidence everywhere apparent of the author's [Westcott's] convictions as a devout Christian, and a firm believer in the authority and inspiration of the Sacred Word. A tone of hearty confidence in the Scriptures, as true and the source of truth, pervades the work.” (An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London: MacMillan & Co., 1902, p. viii)

"We have a Bible competent to calm our doubts, and able to speak to our weakness. It then becomes not an utterance in strange tongues, but in the words of wisdom and knowledge. It is authoritative, for it is the voice of GOD; it is intelligible, for it is in the language of men." (Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, Westcott, p.8)

"the personal conviction of the Inspiration and Completeness of Scripture depends in a great measure upon the accurate study of the Sacred Writings themselves" (Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, Westcott, p.36)

"Mere mechanical infallibility is but a poor substitute for a plenary Inspiriation, which finds its expression in the right relation between partial human knowledge and absolute Divine truth." (Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, Westcott, p.41)

“The various proofs which may be adduced in support of the doctrine of the plenary inspiration of Holy Scripture, according to the sense in which it has been already explained, are various in kind, and will necessarily appear more or less forcible at different times and to different minds.” An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London: MacMillan & Co., 1902, p.43)

“To speak of the proof of the Inspiration of the Scriptures involves, indeed, an unworthy limitation of the idea itself. In the fullest sense of the word we cannot prove the presence of life, but are simply conscious of it; and Inspiration is the manifestation of a higher life. The words of Scripture are spiritual words, and as such are spiritually discerned.” (An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London: MacMillan & Co., 1902, p.45)

Westcott had a "firm conviction of the unerring truthfulness of the Sacred writers" (Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, Westcott, p.45)

“But if we know by the ordinary laws of criticism that our Gospels are the only authentic records of the Saviour's life, while we believe that Providence regards the well-being of the Christian Church, are we not necessarily led to conclude that some divine power overruled their composition, so that what must otherwise seem a meagre and incomplete record should contain all that is fittest historically to aid our progress and determine our faith?” (An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London: MacMillan & Co., 1902, pp.46, 47)

“...and it cannot but seem that the same Power which so definitely circumscribed its [the Gospels'] limits determined its contents.” (An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London: MacMillan & Co., 1902, p. 47)

“From what has been said, it follows that the personal conviction of the Inspiration and Completeness of Scripture depends, in a great measure, upon the accurate study of the Sacred Writings themselves;” (An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London: MacMillan & Co., 1902, p. 59)

“Mere mechanical infallibility is but a poor substitute for a plenary inspiration, which finds its expression in the right relation between partial human knowledge and absolute Divine truth.” (An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London: MacMillan & Co., 1902, p. 64)

“The same Providence who guided the composition of the Bible, has also furnished a Commentary on it in the fortunes of mankind.” (An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London: MacMillan & Co., 1902, p. 65)

“...if we can trace, under various forms, one great idea of inspiration in the scattered societies of ancient Christendom – if we can find it incorporated into distinct systems and acknowledged by the most incongruous minds – if the universal consent of antiquity lead us to Scripture for the groundwork of our creed – we shall surely acknowledge that tradition has done for us a noble and necessary work, by maintaining an inspired Bible, a definite canon, and a general method of interpretation.” (An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London: MacMillan & Co., 1902, p. 403)



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"If the Bible were only a collection of ancient writings its readers would have a right to claim that those who deal with it should be conversant with the laws of literary criticism, and the methods of historical inquiry. And if it is, as we devoutly believe, the very source and measure of our religious faith, it seems impossible to insist too earnestly on the supreme importance of patience, candour and truthfulness in investigating every problem which it involves. The first steps towards the solution of a difficulty are the recognition of its existence and the determination of its extent. And, unless all past experience is worthless, the difficulties of the Bible are the most fruitful guides to its divine depths. It was said long since that 'God was pleased to leave difficulties upon the surface of Scripture, that men might be forced to look below the surface.'" (The Bible In The Church, Westcott, Preface p.x)

"The subject [(the Bible in the Church)] is one on which it is impossible to write without misgiving. If I have said anything which can be rightly construed as derogatory from the divine majesty of Holy Scripture, I am the first to wish it unsaid. If I have said anything inaccurately (and with all care it can scarcely be otherwise), I sincerely trust that I may be corrected. If I have said anything which may lead one student of the Bible to just and faithful views of its Divine authority, I thank God humbly for this fruit of painful and anxious work." (The Bible In The Church, Westcott, Preface p.xiii)

"Thus it is that the whole Bible is rightly claimed as the pledge and type of the comprehensiveness and unity of the Christian Faith" (The Bible In The Church, Westcott, p.2)

"It is only by acknowledging the variety and distinctness of the parts of which the Bible is composed that we can gain any adequate sense of its real unity, of its inherent completeness, of its internal witness to its proper Divine authority." (The Bible In The Church, Westcott, p.11)

"the Bible contains in itself the fullest witness to its Divine authority....legibly stamped with the Divine seal as 'inspired by God' in a sense in which no other writings are." (The Bible In The Church, Westcott, p.14-15)

"The utterance of Scripture is treated as the voice of God conversing with men. Through the written word the Wisdom of God addresses us." (The Epistle to the Hebrews, p.399)

"The Bible is the record, the inspired, authoritative record, of the divine education of the world." (The Epistle to the Hebrews, p.493)

"From first to last God is seen in the Bible conversing with man. He speaks to man as man can hear, and man replies as he can use the gift of the Spirit." (The Epistles of St. John, Westcott, Preface p.vii)
 
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Abiding Grace

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Kiwimac,

Greetings from across the ditch in Ozland. Why don't you provide us with some theological understanding of Westcott and Hort? Were they theological liberals to be avoided or is their work in textual criticism relating to Greek MSS of a high and balanced standard?

Oz

If I may, Westcott and Hort were high-churchmen of The Church of England. They have been accused falsely by KJVO's for years. It's a shame that people identifying as Christians would engage in such slander. But they do. I have considered that people are just repeating each other instead of doing their own research and I do think that it accounts for it. But the standard for being a Christian is absolute honesty and accuracy.

God speed
 
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bbyrd009

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why are some things missing from the bible such as chakras, energy fields, sound, frequencies,pineal gland and things of this nature? and if not missing where are they.

i think there are many truths in the eastern beliefs. these people know all about these things in their belief system yet in the west our bible says nothing of these things. when i mention these things to other Christians they think i am crazy and call this devils work. Tibetan Buddhist devote majority of their lives to spirituality and yet most western main stream Christians spend less than one day a week, with most of our focus on our job, our money, shopping and television. this makes no sense to me.
the Bible does give some hints, but i think the reasoning is bc the Bible is pitched to people who are raised to reason logically.

for instance "drying up the Euphrates to make way for the kings of the East" is...prolly what you are doing right now! :D
plus we have much evidence that Scripture is written dialectically, not logically, etc
 
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brakelite

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the Bible does give some hints, but i think the reasoning is bc the Bible is pitched to people who are raised to reason logically.

for instance "drying up the Euphrates to make way for the kings of the East" is...prolly what you are doing right now! :D
plus we have much evidence that Scripture is written dialectically, not logically, etc
The ot gives us clues as to the understanding of nt concepts. The first drying up of the Euphrates by Cyrus allowed him to enter Babylon as you would know. The future drying of the Euphrates must also be connected to Babylon, but not the ancient city in Iraq. Babylon the great, mother of harlots. The drying up of the river in connection to her i believe is the drying up of her support base. This allows for her destruction at the hands of the kings of the earth who hate her and burn her with fire.
 
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jaybird

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the Bible does give some hints, but i think the reasoning is bc the Bible is pitched to people who are raised to reason logically.

for instance "drying up the Euphrates to make way for the kings of the East" is...prolly what you are doing right now! :D
plus we have much evidence that Scripture is written dialectically, not logically, etc

birdy your one of the few to notice this. didnt Jesus tell His disciples it was them, the inner circle , given the secrets. to the crowds He spoke in parables and "general" teaching. i thnk the bible is like those general teachings but within there are greater secrets.
in todays Christinaty we are denounced (by many but not all) for venturing out side the mainstream parameter, yet no one thnks about these secrets.
 
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brakelite

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The ot gives us clues as to the understanding of nt concepts. The first drying up of the Euphrates by Cyrus allowed him to enter Babylon as you would know. The future drying of the Euphrates must also be connected to Babylon, but not the ancient city in Iraq. Babylon the great, mother of harlots. The drying up of the river in connection to her i believe is the drying up of her support base. This allows for her destruction at the hands of the kings of the earth who hate her and burn her with fire.
BTW, just to be clear. That support base is people. The harlot is only as strong as the numbers of her followers. In prophecy, 'seas', (as in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13:1,2) or waters in general, and in the harlots case the river Euphrates (upon which she sits) can be safely assumed as being "people, nations, tribes, and tongues". See Revelation 17:15 . THus Babylon is no longer a local literal city, but a global spiritual enterprise.
 

bbyrd009

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BTW, just to be clear. That support base is people. The harlot is only as strong as the numbers of her followers. In prophecy, 'seas', (as in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13:1,2) or waters in general, and in the harlots case the river Euphrates (upon which she sits) can be safely assumed as being "people, nations, tribes, and tongues". See Revelation 17:15 . THus Babylon is no longer a local literal city, but a global spiritual enterprise.
i'd at least suggest that Rivers seems to imply a subtly different concept than Seas, as Rivers seems to indicate Division in a diff way from the division of sea and dry land; i guess Euphrates even means or is derived from the word Division? So i'm agreeing with you @ "ppl, nations, tribes, tongues" when they are divided, but when the river dries up there is no more division right
 

bbyrd009

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birdy your one of the few to notice this. didnt Jesus tell His disciples it was them, the inner circle , given the secrets, to the crowds He spoke in parables and "general" teaching. i thnk the bible is like those general teachings but within there are greater secrets.
in todays Christinaty we are denounced (by many but not all) for venturing out side the mainstream parameter, yet no one thnks about these secrets.
hmm, i'd believe we're some of the first maybe quicker than the few here tbh, and even that is likely a happy accident of timing or something, dunno. Maybe having been oppressed in a certain way...do you have the same vocation your father has/had?
 

OzSpen

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birdy your one of the few to notice this. didnt Jesus tell His disciples it was them, the inner circle , given the secrets. to the crowds He spoke in parables and "general" teaching. i thnk the bible is like those general teachings but within there are greater secrets.
in todays Christinaty we are denounced (by many but not all) for venturing out side the mainstream parameter, yet no one thnks about these secrets.

What are 'these secrets'? Are they only seen or heard by the truly initiated?
 

CharismaticLady

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why are some things missing from the bible such as chakras, energy fields, sound, frequencies,pineal gland and things of this nature? and if not missing where are they.

i think there are many truths in the eastern beliefs. these people know all about these things in their belief system yet in the west our bible says nothing of these things. when i mention these things to other Christians they think i am crazy and call this devils work. Tibetan Buddhist devote majority of their lives to spirituality and yet most western main stream Christians spend less than one day a week, with most of our focus on our job, our money, shopping and television. this makes no sense to me.

Chakras, balancing energy fields, and the like are substitutes for the Holy Spirit. The pineal gland is an actual gland in the center of the brain that produces hormones. It is natural, not spiritual as in "third eye." Pagan countries know there is a spiritual realm, and want access to it, but use man-made methods of meditation to open one self up to obtain it, when there is really only one true way to the light side, and that is Jesus. You can still get to the spiritual realm but those methods open yourself up to the dark side.
 
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bbyrd009

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which would make the wholesale attack on the pineal gland pointless i guess
not buying it, sorry
What are 'these secrets'? Are they only seen or heard by the truly initiated?
nah, just be open-minded imo, there really are no secrets per se
i dont know the specifics IMO they would be meant for the individual and not meant to lead a group.
as lightning flashes from east to west
dont go to the kings of the east

etc maybe

far-easterners are raised to reason from the naive dialectic, or at least they used to be
 

Truman

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why are some things missing from the bible such as chakras, energy fields, sound, frequencies,pineal gland and things of this nature? and if not missing where are they.

i think there are many truths in the eastern beliefs. these people know all about these things in their belief system yet in the west our bible says nothing of these things. when i mention these things to other Christians they think i am crazy and call this devils work. Tibetan Buddhist devote majority of their lives to spirituality and yet most western main stream Christians spend less than one day a week, with most of our focus on our job, our money, shopping and television. this makes no sense to me.
Hi. There are 2 kingdoms in this world, God's Kingdom and Satan's kingdom. God alone creates. Satan warps what God has created. When it comes to things of the dark kingdom, they are backed by very intelligent, powerful, supernatural, and deceptive beings.
They have been around for some time and have watched and interfered with billions of lives. They know exactly how to deceive people. After all, the word says that Satan deceives the whole earth. He absolutely hates God and everything He's created. Especially us.
Jesus said that as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man. The days of Noah are known as a time when the sons of man (fallen angels) came to earth, took wives, and had offspring that are known as the Nephilim. These included giants, though there were and are others. The same thing is happening now. see Genesis 6.
Tradition has the Flood event as a children's story. This couldn't be farther from the truth. The giants ate all the food the people could bring them, then they ate the people. The fallen Watchers gave all kinds of harmful information to mankind, including a corrupt zodiac, how to wage war, how to make weapons, etc. Much, if not most, of today's evils, were caused by them, and others like them.
The enemy corrupted all sorts of animals, which is how I believe dinosaurs came about. Most of all, they corrupted mankind including blending human and animal genetics. They even genetically modified plants in order to feed their offspring.
God sent the flood to wipe out all of this. He saved 8 people, Noah, his 3 sons, and their 4 wives because they had good genes.
Eastern religions such as Hinduism were started because these beings called themselves gods and expected the people to worship them. The same with Greece and Rome and many others.
The first of the 10 commandments of God states, "You shall have no other gods before Me." Even 10 of the 12 tribes of Israel were exiled by God for devil worshipping. Except for Yahweh, God Almighty, no one deserves to be worshipped, especially not those whose goal is to destroy what God has created.
Everything outside the Kingdom of God isn't. Having had multiple experiences with the enemy, I've learned the hard way that these things are nasty, hateful, beings who want to dominate people. A dead Nephilim spirit is called a demon. They didn't teach that one in Sunday school, either.
When one dabbles with the occult, they are playing with fire and the enemies of God. This includes UFOs. These beings have done me nothing but harm. I'd advise you to stay far from them. Including witches and Ouija boards.
Having said all this, I want to say that God meets us where we are. "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ." Romans 8:1 NIV I hope I haven't talked your ears off. You have a nice day. Ron.
 
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Spurgeon's Girl

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Mac,

Do you have some quotations from them to demonstrate your points? If they were not theological liberals nor fundamentalists, what did they call their theological positions?

Some of the harshest criticisms against them seem to come from those who judge them for their work as textual critics and what they did to and with the Greek MSS. Do you have any views and citations on this?

Oz

Try this: Westcott and Hort Resource Centre - FAQs

You can not only find their quotes, which KJVO's change to suit their nonsense, but the actual biographies. They are free to download. God Bless.