My God

[Helen]

I listen perfectly. Why do you quote the Scriptures when they have no authority?

Stranger

Can I jump in here and answer this question....I have read all the posts you two keep sending each other

I think I agree with @mjrhealth ....
I DO believe God spoke the bible and anointed-men harkened , heard, and wrote what God told them to write.
The bible is our menu and map to where we are going and where we have come from. The bible shows us the heart of God and His plan of salvation.

But the flip side is ( for me) is that it is not the word of God today. It came from Him, spoken by Him...but today we have it in us....washed up on an island we would still have it....within us written on our heart.
The Word of God is living, alive...it is Jesus Christ Himself.
John 1 which we all know..."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Jesus the Word is now within.

Back in August I started a thread...about the same thing.
There is no life in the white a pages, black print, and leather binding. It could be used as a door stop. It is not holy although some have holy bible written on it and some people are supersticious enough to make it into a kind of god...or like a lucky talisman.

Do I love it? YES...I have about 25 of them!!
Do I read it yes...do I quote it ...yes.
But, only when the Holy Spirit takes it, breaths upon it, and quickens it by His anointing , does it becomes the relevant Word of God for today to us.

I do believe that when we take a verse , like Samson picked up the jawbone of an ass...and quote it into the face of the Devil in time of need or sickness...it becomes 'spirit and life' it is the Word of God.
We can quote a scripture and it can be no more anointed than a nursery rhyme...but by faith , like at the pool of Bethesda, God 'stirs the water' and it becomes a firm weapon in our hand.
I'm sure that you know all this anyway...I was just waiting for one of you to say it! LOL

This is the August thread where I mentioned the bible being just a book , until God moves upon it. I think this is what mjrhealth is saying too.
Bible = 'Books.'

 

[tabletalk]

Can I jump in here and answer this question....I have read all the posts you two keep sending each other

I think I agree with @mjrhealth ....
I DO believe God spoke the bible and anointed-men harkened , heard, and wrote what God told them to write.
The bible is our menu and map to where we are going and where we have come from. The bible shows us the heart of God and His plan of salvation.

But the flip side is ( for me) is that it is not the word of God today. It came from Him, spoken by Him...but today we have it in us....washed up on an island we would still have it....within us written on our heart.
The Word of God is living, alive...it is Jesus Christ Himself.
John 1 which we all know..."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Jesus the Word is now within.

Back in August I started a thread...about the same thing.
There is no life in the white a pages, black print, and leather binding. It could be used as a door stop. It is not holy although some have holy bible written on it and some people are supersticious enough to make it into a kind of god...or like a lucky talisman.

Do I love it? YES...I have about 25 of them!!
Do I read it yes...do I quote it ...yes.
But, only when the Holy Spirit takes it, breaths upon it, and quickens it by His anointing , does it becomes the relevant Word of God for today to us.

I do believe that when we take a verse , like Samson picked up the jawbone of an ass...and quote it into the face of the Devil in time of need or sickness...it becomes 'spirit and life' it is the Word of God.
We can quote a scripture and it can be no more anointed than a nursery rhyme...but by faith , like at the pool of Bethesda, God 'stirs the water' and it becomes a firm weapon in our hand.
I'm sure that you know all this anyway...I was just waiting for one of you to say it! LOL

This is the August thread where I mentioned the bible being just a book , until God moves upon it. I think this is what mjrhealth is saying too.
Bible = 'Books.'

It seems from your above statements that you really do agree with mjrhealth, that the bible is not the word of God today.
Can you tell me if most Charismatics believe as you do, about the bible?

 

[Helen]

It seems from your above statements that you really do agree with mjrhealth, that the bible is not the word of God today.
Can you tell me if most Charismatics believe as you do, about the bible?

Goodness @tabletalk I have no idea what "most" Christians think, let alone most Charismatics...I have been out of the loop far too long.
I wrote that thread that I mentioned above ...because at that time people were arguing ( ha! whats new) and saying things like "prove this and prove that"...and it was "the bible, the bible, the bible"...
What in post post that you quoted do you disagree with?

I said- "In think I agree with mjrhealth. ..."
As you know by reading the many posts with Stranger mjrhealth has not stated clearly how he sees it...he may not even agree with what I wrote at all!!

If you read my post...I believe that the bible is only " the word of God for today".. when God's Spirit breaths upon it. Other than that...as I already said...I see it as a revelation of Gods Plan, a map, a menu , even a love letter..of The Beginning and The End...
.it is just black print on white paper until He breaths upon it and speaks something..which is then our fresh manna for today...
Just like any novel...it is still great reading for pleasure...full of wonderful things...full of TRUTH ...but it must be read with one ear open to see if God is going to take a verse and speak from it and it become God Word for us personally, for TODAY.

Either that is understood or it's not. I can't say it any better or clearer than that.
God doesn't 'need it' to speak to you...does He??
How many times have you woken in the morning and hear Him say something deep in your spirit?
He , the living God communes with us in our spirit.
We all know that most often He will take a bible verse and speak it to us in a new and living way...but we don't need a bible in our hand for that. We commune with His in the Spirit..
We live with Him in the Spirit.
Would I want to be without a bible...no...but unlike some I wouldn't have nervous breakdown if they were banned. ( which, by the way the world is going, that could happen)
I have found that many..even some close friends of ours...love to study, love the Greek and Hebrew, ...always trying to find stuff to agree with or not agree with in the bible...and that's good...much better than hours spent before the TV . Yet, their hours are spent with in fellowship their bibles and commentaries, rather than spent 'one to one' with the Father.. a 'relationship with the bible' can never outweigh a face to face time with God , hearing what His word is saying today.
But, each to their own. I just feel that some are a bit out of balance that's all.
Surely God wants us to hear what He is saying TODAY....not only what He has said?

Just saying...

 

[twinc]

It seems from your above statements that you really do agree with mjrhealth, that the bible is not the word of God today.
Can you tell me if most Charismatics believe as you do, about the bible?

the bible clearly tells us who or what is the word of God today but it seems this is unaccepted and unacceptable - Hebrews 1 tells us clearly but this is not understood and not acceptable it seems - it is at Lk.10:16 and Jn.10:27 - twinc

 

[Stranger]

Can I jump in here and answer this question....I have read all the posts you two keep sending each other

I think I agree with @mjrhealth ....
I DO believe God spoke the bible and anointed-men harkened , heard, and wrote what God told them to write.
The bible is our menu and map to where we are going and where we have come from. The bible shows us the heart of God and His plan of salvation.

But the flip side is ( for me) is that it is not the word of God today. It came from Him, spoken by Him...but today we have it in us....washed up on an island we would still have it....within us written on our heart.
The Word of God is living, alive...it is Jesus Christ Himself.
John 1 which we all know..."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Jesus the Word is now within.

Back in August I started a thread...about the same thing.
There is no life in the white a pages, black print, and leather binding. It could be used as a door stop. It is not holy although some have holy bible written on it and some people are supersticious enough to make it into a kind of god...or like a lucky talisman.

Do I love it? YES...I have about 25 of them!!
Do I read it yes...do I quote it ...yes.
But, only when the Holy Spirit takes it, breaths upon it, and quickens it by His anointing , does it becomes the relevant Word of God for today to us.

I do believe that when we take a verse , like Samson picked up the jawbone of an ass...and quote it into the face of the Devil in time of need or sickness...it becomes 'spirit and life' it is the Word of God.
We can quote a scripture and it can be no more anointed than a nursery rhyme...but by faith , like at the pool of Bethesda, God 'stirs the water' and it becomes a firm weapon in our hand.
I'm sure that you know all this anyway...I was just waiting for one of you to say it! LOL

This is the August thread where I mentioned the bible being just a book , until God moves upon it. I think this is what mjrhealth is saying too.
Bible = 'Books.'

OK. If anointed men hearkened, heard, and wrote, what God wanted them to write, which sounds like (2 Peter 1:20-21) and (2 Tim. 3:16), why is what is written of God, not the Word of God, as it claims to be?

The Bible shows us many things because it is God's revelation to us. The Word of God.

You say the Bible is not the Word of God today. OK. Then throw your Bibles away. Why do you keep them? Don't tell me this road map stuff. If it isn't for today then get rid of them. You don't need them.

If the Bible is not for today, why do you love it? If it is not for today, why would the Holy Spirit waste His time in using it?

I have never discounted the Holy Spirit in the use of the Word of God. But even though that Bible is sitting on a table in a room full of atheists, it is still the Word of God.

Jesus is the living Word. The Scriptures are the written Word. And this Jesus acknowledged. "It is written".

Stranger

 

[twinc]

OK. If anointed men hearkened, heard, and wrote, what God wanted them to write, which sounds like (2 Peter 1:20-21) and (2 Tim. 3:16), why is what is written of God, not the Word of God, as it claims to be?

The Bible shows us many things because it is God's revelation to us. The Word of God.

You say the Bible is not the Word of God today. OK. Then throw your Bibles away. Why do you keep them? Don't tell me this road map stuff. If it isn't for today then get rid of them. You don't need them.

If the Bible is not for today, why do you love it? If it is not for today, why would the Holy Spirit waste His time in using it?

I have never discounted the Holy Spirit in the use of the Word of God. But even though that Bible is sitting on a table in a room full of atheists, it is still the Word of God.

Jesus is the living Word. The Scriptures are the written Word. And this Jesus acknowledged. "It is written".

Stranger

what is being misunderstood is that though the bible is the word of God who has also spoken and speaks outside the bible - the bible clearly tell us why it was written - twinc

 

[Helen]

OK. If anointed men hearkened, heard, and wrote, what God wanted them to write, which sounds like (2 Peter 1:20-21) and (2 Tim. 3:16), why is what is written of God, not the Word of God, as it claims to be?

The Bible shows us many things because it is God's revelation to us. The Word of God.

You say the Bible is not the Word of God today. OK. Then throw your Bibles away. Why do you keep them. Don't tell me this road map stuff. If it isn't for today then get rid of them. You don't need them.

If the Bible is not for today, why do you love it? If it is not for today, why would the Holy Spirit waste His time in using it?

I have never discounted the Holy Spirit in the use of the Word of God. But even though that Bible is sitting on a table in a room full of atheists, it is still the Word of God.

Jesus is the living Word. The Scriptures are the written Word. And this Jesus acknowledged. "It is written".

Stranger

Thanks.
Maybe it is just all semantics ...it is just that "to me" the bible sitting on my table are indeed the words of God. Totally. No problem there.
Okay, maybe I am splitting hairs...I see a difference between the written words of God...and what he speaks into our everyday life today.
You mentioned Jesus ...So we see Him in the wilderness being tempted .
If He had taken a scroll/bible and hit the Devil with it, would it have done the same thing as it did when the words God had spoken "back then" were spoken by Jesus? We know the answer..it's silly. It was the spoken anointed word that had the power, not any scroll/bible that Jesus may have been able to lay His hands upon. That would not scare or rebuke the Devil we know that.

"To me" the word of God for today is what God is speaking to me today. More often than not it is while I am reading the bible.
Bottom line, Jesus is the Word of God as John 1 shows..He always was , from before the Beginning. As you say the scriptures are the written word..Jesus is the Living Word.
I just see a difference, ...you don't... but no problem. It doesn't change anything really.
BTW You quoted me right...sorry..my bad...how I should have worded it is in saying :- that the Bible 'in itself' is not the word of God for Today. What I mean is within it when quickened it contains a word for today....but sitting on the shelf it is just the written word which is doing no one any good today.

I know that we are all very different...in my life for the last 50 I live as our old first pastor taught us which was....Get before God while the dew is still on the Manna...listen to God, and receive fresh manna for today. We live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, not by the word that proceeded. So, old habits die hard...not that I want them to die...it has held me in good stead all these years. Maybe some get saved, read their bibles, and are satisfied in their Christian life. Nothing wrong with that. I am just one who believes there is more intimacy than that.
If I am wrong...at least I have enjoyed the journey.

 

[tabletalk]

Goodness @tabletalk I have no idea what "most" Christians think, let alone most Charismatics...I have been out of the loop far too long.
I wrote that thread that I mentioned above ...because at that time people were arguing ( ha! whats new) and saying things like "prove this and prove that"...and it was "the bible, the bible, the bible"...
What in post post that you quoted do you disagree with?

I said- "In think I agree with mjrhealth. ..."
As you know by reading the many posts with Stranger mjrhealth has not stated clearly how he sees it...he may not even agree with what I wrote at all!!

If you read my post...I believe that the bible is only " the word of God for today".. when God's Spirit breaths upon it. Other than that...as I already said...I see it as a revelation of Gods Plan, a map, a menu , even a love letter..of The Beginning and The End...
.it is just black print on white paper until He breaths upon it and speaks something..which is then our fresh manna for today...
Just like any novel...it is still great reading for pleasure...full of wonderful things...full of TRUTH ...but it must be read with one ear open to see if God is going to take a verse and speak from it and it become God Word for us personally, for TODAY.

Either that is understood or it's not. I can't say it any better or clearer than that.
God doesn't 'need it' to speak to you...does He??
How many times have you woken in the morning and hear Him say something deep in your spirit?
He , the living God communes with us in our spirit.
We all know that most often He will take a bible verse and speak it to us in a new and living way...but we don't need a bible in our hand for that. We commune with His in the Spirit..
We live with Him in the Spirit.
Would I want to be without a bible...no...but unlike some I wouldn't have nervous breakdown if they were banned. ( which, by the way the world is going, that could happen)
I have found that many..even some close friends of ours...love to study, love the Greek and Hebrew, ...always trying to find stuff to agree with or not agree with in the bible...and that's good...much better than hours spent before the TV . Yet, their hours are spent with in fellowship their bibles and commentaries, rather than spent 'one to one' with the Father.. a 'relationship with the bible' can never outweigh a face to face time with God , hearing what His word is saying today.
But, each to their own. I just feel that some are a bit out of balance that's all.
Surely God wants us to hear what He is saying TODAY....not only what He has said?

Just saying...

I appreciate your reply and I'll think on it! Thanks.

 

[Stranger]

what is being misunderstood is that though the bible is the word of God who has also spoken and speaks outside the bible - the bible clearly tell us why it was written - twinc

Nothing God says 'outside the Bible' will be contrary to what He has said in the Bible. And, where do you say the Bible clearly tells us why it was written?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Thanks.
Maybe it is just all semantics ...it is just that "to me" the bible sitting on my table are indeed the words of God. Totally. No problem there.
Okay, maybe I am splitting hairs...I see a difference between the written words of God...and what he speaks into our everyday life today.
You mentioned Jesus ...So we see Him in the wilderness being tempted .
If He had taken a scroll/bible and hit the Devil with it, would it have done the same thing as it did when the words God had spoken "back then" were spoken by Jesus? We know the answer..it's silly. It was the spoken anointed word that had the power, not any scroll/bible that Jesus may have been able to lay His hands upon. That would not scare or rebuke the Devil we know that.

"To me" the word of God for today is what God is speaking to me today. More often than not it is while I am reading the bible.
Bottom line, Jesus is the Word of God as John 1 shows..He always was , from before the Beginning. As you say the scriptures are the written word..Jesus is the Living Word.
I just see a difference, ...you don't... but no problem. It doesn't change anything really.
BTW You quoted me right...sorry..my bad...how I should have worded it is in saying :- that the Bible 'in itself' is not the word of God for Today. What I mean is within it when quickened it contains a word for today....but sitting on the shelf it is just the written word which is doing no one any good today.

I know that we are all very different...in my life for the last 50 I live as our old first pastor taught us which was....Get before God while the dew is still on the Manna...listen to God, and receive fresh manna for today. We live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, not by the word that proceeded. So, old habits die hard...not that I want them to die...it has held me in good stead all these years. Maybe some get saved, read their bibles, and are satisfied in their Christian life. Nothing wrong with that. I am just one who believes there is more intimacy than that.
If I am wrong...at least I have enjoyed the journey.

You see a difference? That is fine. Then as I said, throw your Bible away. It is not necessary. Just don't quote it anymore or use it anymore. That would be hypocritical. When involved with theological discussions, then just tell them what Jesus has been telling you.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

You see a difference? That is fine. Then as I said, throw your Bible away. It is not necessary. Just don't quote it anymore or use it anymore. That would be hypocritical. When involved with theological discussions, then just tell them what Jesus has been telling you.

Stranger

Stranger we are talking about two different things here.
You are claiming that it is God's word for you today. And that is obviously enough for you.
That's fine.
I am saying for today I need to hear from Father...I have said already a few times...He speaking out of the pages when His Spirit anoints the verses. Which is different than just reading a few verses and saying "God spoke to me today."

Obviously I must be more needy than you are...I need to hear His word more than just what He has said, but also what He is saying today.

Making extreme statements like 'throw away the bible'....and 'using it is hypercritical ...'..
when we are both fully aware that in court cases the Prosecution and Defence quote portions to state their case and and refer back to other cases....
Stranger, I am not BOL , I thought we could have a pleasant conversation here.
Oh well. Don't bother to respond , just let it go now.

 

[Stranger]

Stranger we are talking about two different things here.
You are claiming that it is God's word for you today. And that is obviously enough for you.
That's fine.
I am saying for today I need to hear from Father...I have said already a few times...He speaking out of the pages when His Spirit anoints the verses. Which is different than just reading a few verses and saying "God spoke to me today."

Obviously I must be more needy than you are...I need to hear His word more than just what He has said, but also what He is saying today.

Making extreme statements like 'throw away the bible'....and 'using it is hypercritical ...'..
when we are both fully aware that in court cases the Prosecution and Defence quote portions to state their case and and refer back to other cases....
Stranger, I am not BOL , I thought we could have a pleasant conversation here.
Oh well. Don't bother to respond , just let it go now.

Sorry.

Just because I say the Bible is the written Word of God does not mean I discount anyones spiritual relation to God. And, can God give you a fresh and new word in your life concerning your daily experience? Of course. He may do it through another believer, or the Bible, or by the Spirit of Christ in you. None of these things require me to not believe that the Bible is the written Word of God. And that written Word of God serves as a protection to any new word we may receive.

I think it is necessary sometimes to see the final conclusions of what we may be saying. Are my statements extreme...maybe. But I consider unbelief concerning the Bible as the written Word of God, very extreme.

So tell me, why should you, or anyone else, believe that the Bible is not the written Word of God?

Stranger

 

[Helen]

Sorry.

Just because I say the Bible is the written Word of God does not mean I discount anyones spiritual relation to God. And, can God give you a fresh and new word in your life concerning your daily experience? Of course. He may do it through another believer, or the Bible, or by the Spirit of Christ in you. None of these things require me to not believe that the Bible is the written Word of God. And that written Word of God serves as a protection to any new word we may receive.

I think it is necessary sometimes to see the final conclusions of what we may be saying. Are my statements extreme...maybe. But I consider unbelief concerning the Bible as the written Word of God, very extreme.

So tell me, why should you, or anyone else, believe that the Bible is not the written Word of God?

Stranger

As to the part of your quote I Bolded...I can see maybe where we thought we were saying two different things.
I totally agree that the 'written word' does indeed protect us from any "NEW" (..you say 'WORD', I would use 'REVELATION'!! )
Any new revelation a person think they have received, should always be suspect until it is found within the pages of the bible .
My own plumb-line is the tabernacle pattern. More so because God said the Moses- " Be sure that you build it according to the pattern that was shown thee on The Mount."
We see all the symbols in the tabernacle patter..Brazen altar = the cross etc etc ...but I am probably preaching here to the choir.

What I was speaking about was getting fresh revelation light..(or like you said ..'a new word') on what is already there within the written word ie, something new that I had not seen or noticed before...' " God speaking to me today"
It happened to me the other week, ScottA mentioned some scripture or some chapter and 'for me' the lights came on..God through that, showed me something I had not seen...that "to me' was God speaking to me that day, something totally new...hidden before that moment and then revealed like a fog rolling away....it was obviously always there, but I had just never seen it there before.

I guess that is what I am meaning when I speak of the difference between- 'the word that proceeded from God..and the living word which is proceeding every day..the scripture says - it is the every day proceeding word that we live by. Matt 4 Maybe not everyone looks for God to show them something , or guide their life that way...but I do. Our old pastor a thousand years ago told us that God was a NOW God...and that He was more willing to speak to us than we are to listen.

Just show how much easier it is to talk face to face in conversation, compared to trying to express thought clearly through writing it!

 

[Stranger]

As to the part of your quote I Bolded...I can see maybe where we thought we were saying two different things.
I totally agree that the 'written word' does indeed protect us from any "NEW" (..you say 'WORD', I would use 'REVELATION'!! )
Any new revelation a person think they have received, should always be suspect until it is found within the pages of the bible .
My own plumb-line is the tabernacle pattern. More so because God said the Moses- " Be sure that you build it according to the pattern that was shown thee on The Mount."
We see all the symbols in the tabernacle patter..Brazen altar = the cross etc etc ...but I am probably preaching here to the choir.

What I was speaking about was getting fresh revelation light..(or like you said ..'a new word') on what is already there within the written word ie, something new that I had not seen or noticed before...' " God speaking to me today"
It happened to me the other week, ScottA mentioned some scripture or some chapter and 'for me' the lights came on..God through that, showed me something I had not seen...that "to me' was God speaking to me that day, something totally new...hidden before that moment and then revealed like a fog rolling away....it was obviously always there, but I had just never seen it there before.

I guess that is what I am meaning when I speak of the difference between- 'the word that proceeded from God..and the living word which is proceeding every day..the scripture says - it is the every day proceeding word that we live by. Matt 4 Maybe not everyone looks for God to show them something , or guide their life that way...but I do. Our old pastor a thousand years ago told us that God was a NOW God...and that He was more willing to speak to us than we are to listen.

Just show how much easier it is to talk face to face in conversation, compared to trying to express thought clearly through writing it!

All that you said sounds good. So, is there any reason for you and others to believe that the Bible is not the written Word of God?

Stranger

 

[Helen]

All that you said sounds good. So, is there any reason for you and others to believe that the Bible is not the written Word of God?

Stranger

Not at all for me. It is indeed the written word of God, it is what God has said through inspired writers that He anointed.
What I maintain is, it alone on my shelf is what God has said...unless I open it,and , unless the Holy Spirit anoints something as I read...it remains , what God has said....
Anointed, and made alive to me as I read, it then becomes the word of God for me TODAY...as it is a "Now moment" .
* Something much like..
1) .reading an old love letter from my husband and enjoying it...
2) The phone rings and I hear him speak to me.today. I hear his voice.
Are we getting close yet?

I can't speak for others, but this is where 'I' stand on difference between the written word of God, and the Living Word of God.
Helen

 

[Stranger]

Not at all for me. It is indeed the written word of God, it is what God has said through inspired writers that He anointed.
What I maintain is, it alone on my shelf is what God has said...unless I open it,and , unless the Holy Spirit anoints something as I read...it remains , what God has said....
Anointed, and made alive to me as I read, it then becomes the word of God for me TODAY...as it is a "Now moment" .
* Something much like..
1) .reading an old love letter from my husband and enjoying it...
2) The phone rings and I hear him speak to me.today. I hear his voice.
Are we getting close yet?

I can't speak for others, but this is where 'I' stand on difference between the written word of God, and the Living Word of God.
Helen

Maybe. I would say as that book sits on the shelf, it is still what God is saying. It is not what God has said.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

Maybe. I would say as that book sits on the shelf, it is still what God is saying. It is not what God has said.

Stranger

No problem there...we are allowed to see things differently , the tail and the head of the elephant are still a part of the elephant.
I'd just say that I have the head end and you have the tail end.

 

[Stranger]

No problem there...we are allowed to see things differently , the tail and the head of the elephant are still a part of the elephant.
I'd just say that I have the head end and you have the tail end.

Sounds good.

Stranger

 

[amadeus]

Maybe. I would say as that book sits on the shelf, it is still what God is saying. It is not what God has said.

Stranger

Perhaps our problem is that we are bound up in time. You and I and every person. God is not. "God spoke" and "God speaks" and "God will speak" may seem necessary to us and have different meanings for us because of the time element, but what is it that God sees. What is that God conveys without regard to yesterday, today or tomorrow?

 

[pia]

I have answered you countless times. but you refuse to answer "one " question, because simply you cant, You are playing games. You claim scripture has authority, well these forum are testament that they do not as do your empty words. If teh Bible was teh word of God than all christians would be walking in the truth, it would be impossible for them not to be yet here we are.... You have an Idol you need to defend, thats Ok so does our friend. I have none, Jesus is not an idol neither is God nor the Holy Spirit who agree with one another. God has set no requirements for Himself to agree with a book. That is your idea not His.

Could quote teh bible but you would just get irritated again.

I am sure that if I havnt answered you someone would pipe up in your defense..

Extremely good post !