My problem, personal yes problem with BORN again

[PinSeeker]

1 John 3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

We get our glorified bodies at Christ's return, and not before.

Absolutely. Not sure if you're insinuating I said otherwise, but I certainly did not.

Notice it says when He is revealed, that is when He returns to this world at the second coming, we all get transformed. This must be the first resurrection as this is when the dead in Christ rise first.

Disagree. Yes, the dead in Christ rise first, but this is the second resurrection. Not to say the KJV or NKJV is "bad," necessarily, but the King James versions, both the KJV and the NKJV, are a little hard to understand there, because of the antiquated language. It's really no different, but the English Standard Version (ESV) and the New American Standard (NASB) are both clearer to our modern ears:

"Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like him, because we shall see Him as He is." (ESV)

"Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is." (NASB)​

When Christ appears, everyone will see Him. But we, the elect of God, will see Him as He is and will be transformed and thus just like Him. This is when He returns, of course. And this will be immediately following the second resurrection, which is physical/bodily, just as Christ's was. And this is because of our having experienced the first resurrection, when we received our faith, which is the gift of God, which we received even when we were dead in our sin and made alive together with Christ and raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:5-6.

Yes, here's a very important point: When this happens, He will not be revealed to us for the first time. Using a good concordance, if you do a word study on the word 'revealed,' you will see verses like the following:

ON ONE HAND:

• "At that time Jesus declared, 'I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children...'" (Matthew 11:25)
• "All things have been handed over to Me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Mim." (Matthew 11:27)
• "And Jesus answered him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.'" (Matthew 16:17)
• "In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, 'I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.'" (Luke 10:21)
• "I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” (John 1:31)
• so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38))

ON THE OTHER HAND:

• "Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known." (Luke 12:2)
• "...so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed." (Luke 17:30)

The point is that there are two "revealings," if you will:

1. In the first, we are given in this life eyes to see and ears to hear ~ faith. And this is the first resurrection, and only experienced by God's elect.
2. In the second, He is revealed in person to all, so is therefore general, and we, as God's elect, will be like him, because we will see Him as He is (as John says in his first epistle). This is the second resurrection.

When the TRUMPET Sounds this will occur

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
New King James Version
51 Behold, I tell you a [a]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
New King James Version
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [a]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Sure. This is the second resurrection ~ our part in it as believers.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Scott Downey]

Absolutely. Not sure if you're insinuating I said otherwise, but I certainly did not.


Disagree. Yes, the dead in Christ rise first, but this is the second resurrection. Not to say the KJV or NKJV is "bad," necessarily, but the King James versions, both the KJV and the NKJV, are a little hard to understand there, because of the antiquated language. It's really no different, but the English Standard Version (ESV) and the New American Standard (NASB) are both clearer to our modern ears:

"Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like him, because we shall see Him as He is." (ESV)

"Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is." (NASB)​

When Christ appears, everyone will see Him. But we, the elect of God, will see Him as He is and will be transformed and thus just like Him. This is when He returns, of course. And this will be immediately following the second resurrection, which is physical/bodily, just as Christ's was. And this is because of our having experienced the first resurrection, when we received our faith, which is the gift of God, which we received even when we were dead in our sin and made alive together with Christ and raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:5-6.

Yes, here's a very important point: When this happens, He will not be revealed to us for the first time. Using a good concordance, if you do a word study on the word 'revealed,' you will see verses like the following:

ON ONE HAND:

• "At that time Jesus declared, 'I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children...'" (Matthew 11:25)
• "All things have been handed over to Me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Mim." (Matthew 11:27)
• "And Jesus answered him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.'" (Matthew 16:17)
• "In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, 'I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.'" (Luke 10:21)
• "I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” (John 1:31)
• so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” (John 12:38))

ON THE OTHER HAND:

• "Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known." (Luke 12:2)
• "...so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed." (Luke 17:30)

The point is that there are two "revealings," if you will:

1. In the first, we are given in this life eyes to see and ears to hear ~ faith. And this is the first resurrection.
2. In the second, He is revealed in person to all, and we, as God's elect, will see Him as He is as John says in his first epistle, and this is the second resurrection.

Sure. This is the second resurrection ~ our part in it as believers.

Grace and peace to you.

what your calling the second is the first
What Is the First Resurrection? (biblestudy.org)

When does this first resurrection take place? It occurs when the "last trumpet" sounds. This trumpet is the last of seven to be prophetically blown (see Revelation 8:1 - 9:21; 11:15 - 18). Paul discusses this trumpet when he states, " . . . but when the last trumpet sounds, we shall all be changed in an instant . . . the dead will be raised" (1Corinthians 15:51 - 52, see also 1Thessalonians 4:16 - 17).

 

[PinSeeker]

what your calling the second is the first.

We will agree to disagree.

When does this first resurrection take place?

I've been very clear in my laying this out. I will say again that it is when we, having been dead in our trespasses since birth (even conception), are, each at our own appointed time, made alive together with Christ and raised us up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-9. And this is what is in view in Revelation 20:4-6.

It occurs when the "last trumpet" sounds.

I get (again) that's your line of thought. I disagree. We do agree that this last trumpet sounds upon Jesus's return, for sure.

This trumpet is the last of seven to be prophetically blown (see Revelation 8:1 - 9:21; 11:15 - 18). Paul discusses this trumpet when he states, " . . . but when the last trumpet sounds, we shall all be changed in an instant . . . the dead will be raised" (1Corinthians 15:51 - 52, see also 1Thessalonians 4:16 - 17).

Sure. I will say again that this is the second ~ which is a really important word in Scripture; as you know, I'm sure, Jesus is the second Adam ~ so second, to be understood in the same light as final, and ultimate, among other things (which necessarily means that there had to have already been a first, of course). If you believe this is the first resurrection, Scott, then when do you believe the second ~ again, the final, the ultimate ~ resurrection to take place? Well, I have well understood what you have said before, that "the second resurrection is the resurrection of the wicked," but this cannot be; the second ~ final, ultimate ~ resurrection is general, the final, physical resurrection of all ("an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out"; John 5:28-29), including those who have died in Christ (they/we are "resurrected to life"; John 5:29) and those who have died not in Christ, but in Adam (this is their only resurrection; they are "resurrected to judgment"; John 5:29). This is what is in view in Revelation 20:11-12.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I wanted to explore this further...↑

I said this
By the way to live again and reign with Christ this 1000 years, they have to no longer be disembodied living spirits, they also need a living physical body again...

You said this
Disagree. Just as Christ yielded up His spirit to the Father (Matthew 27:50), committed His spirit to the Father (Luke 23:46), gave up His spirit to the Father (John 19:30), so will it be for us, God's elect, when we physically die (as He did on the cross). Just like the thief crucified on Jesus's right, when we physically die, which will occur for each of us individually, our spirits will be with Jesus in paradise that very day (Luke 23:43). This is because we have experienced the first resurrection. And then on the Day of Christ, yes, when He returns to earth, when we, God's elect, are physically resurrected, our spirits will be reunited with our physical, resurrected bodies.
---------------------------------------------------------
I say this
Christ has a glorified body, not just a spiritual existence, John tells us we will have a body like He has. And we shall see Christ as He is.
Jesus when he appears to the disciples, to offer proof of his being physically alive, and not just some ghost says,

You are correct Scott. However this will not apply to the church. the church began at Pentecost and ends at the rapture sometime before the 70th week of Daniel commences.

Those who live and reign with Jesus on earth for the millennial kingdom will be resurrected OT saints, and tribulation saints. When we see Rev. 19-20, we see the church in heaven being wed to Jesus before He returns. We have already been rejoined with out body and have already had it glorified.

Then in Rev. 19 we see Jesus return to fight and defeat the antichrist and the armies of the world. And not going into all the activities that take place when Jesus returns, there is the first resurrection of REv. 20 and those are the ones who along with the survivors of the trib who did not take the mark enter the paradise earth.

 

[PinSeeker]

The church began at Pentecost and ends at the rapture sometime before the 70th week of Daniel commences.

By "the church," Ronald, do you mean the the church age? If so, I agree with at least that part; this is the age of the church (Christ's church), in which it is being built, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:20-22 ~ we are being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, and in Him we are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. I agree that it started at Pentecost, but I would say that the church age ends when the structure is complete at the end of the age, when all of Israel, including Gentiles and Jewish believers ~ when the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in and then the partial hardening that is on Israel now is removed ~ all of Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-26).

This is when Christ's millennial reign ~ in/from heaven, from the right hand of God, through the course of which the saints have been coming to life and reigning with Him for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6) ~ the millennium, the age of the Church, which is synonymous with "these last days" in which the Father "has spoken to us by His Son" (Hebrews 1:2)... is brought to a close. Indeed, the "us" in Hebrews 1:2 is His Church.

NOTE: By Christ's Church, I am most assuredly not referring to the Roman Catholic Church, but the one holy, apostolic, catholic (universal, including people of all tongues, tribes, and nations) Church of Jesus Christ, which as of now is still invisible in the sense that we don't fully know who all is included.​

When the millennium ends, when the Church age is brought to a close, when God's Israel is complete, this will be when Jesus returns. From this point on, Christ rules in Person for eternity. His return will certainly be a rapturous event, when He takes hold of His church by force, so to speak, in the true sense of being caught up (Greek harpazō) with the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:17). In this, Christ is not taking His Church out of the world, or removing them from it, but rather we are being caught up to Him ~ going out to meet Him, as a King's subjects usher him into his kingdom in his return. In this way, it is very much like Jesus's triumphal entry into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, but this will be the ultimate fulfillment of that foreshadowing of Christ's true and final return. It will certainly be a rapturous event, the return of the King (Lord of the Rings reference...), but there is no "rapture," where the church is removed from the earth for any period of time whereby then people have "one last chance" to repent and believe.

When we see Rev. 19-20, we see the church in heaven being wed to Jesus before He returns. We have already been rejoined with out body and have already had it glorified.

This is a misunderstanding. The events of Revelation 20 are not a continuation from the events at the close of Revelation 19. This speaks to the construction of Revelation as a whole. It is not purely sequential, but rather a retelling (in different ways, using different imagery) of the Church age leading up to the return of Jesus several ~ seven, actually ~ times. Revelation 20:1 through Revelation 21:8 is actually the seventh retelling. With regard specifically to Revelation 19 and Revelation 20, Revelation19:11-21 is to be seen as the same event described in Revelation 20:7-10. Consider the following:

• Similar language from Ezekiel 38-39 is used in the various descriptions of the final battle.
• The judgment of Satan in 20:10 parallels the judgments against Babylon (Revelation 17-18) and against the Beast and the False Prophet (Revelation 19:11-21). These enemies of God all receive their doom, and the visions depicting their doom are thematically rather than chronologically arranged.
• Certain features in Revelation 20:11-15 correspond to earlier descriptions of the Second Coming (Revelation 6:14; Revelation 11:18).
• Most important, all Christ’s enemies have been destroyed in Revelation 19:11-21. If Revelation 20:1-6 were to represent events later than Revelation 19:11-21, there would be no one left for Satan to deceive in Revelation 20:3.

Thus, 20:1-15 is to be seen as a 7th cycle leading to the Second Coming. It parallels all the other cycles, rather than representing a unique period chronologically later than any of the others.

...there is the first resurrection of Rev. 20 and those are the ones who along with the survivors of the trib who did not take the mark enter the paradise earth.

With everything in view above, again I say that the first resurrection takes place over the course of the millennium. The language of the first resurrection obviously implies that there is a second. In this context, the first and second resurrections have a suggestive relation to the first and second death. The mention of the second death in Revelation 20:6 clearly implies a first. And we know from the general teaching of Scripture what both of these are. The first death is bodily death. The second death is consignment to hell, the final abode of the wicked (Revelation 20:14-15). The second death is spiritual in character, and accompanies bodily resurrection (John 5:29). The first death is preliminary, while the second death is final and irreversible. It is last. As there is a first heaven and earth and a second or last (Revelation 21:1), so there is a first and last death. Moreover, the first death, in its curse character, is a sign of the coming of the more terrible second death (Genesis 3:19).

These facts provide the decisive clues for understanding the first and the second resurrection. The first resurrection is preliminary, while the second resurrection is final and last. The second resurrection is clearly bodily resurrection. It is clearly the remedy for the first death, bodily death. Conversely, the first resurrection is a kind of remedy for the second death, according to Revelation 20:6. The first resurrection guarantees freedom from the second death. The various symmetries suggest that the first resurrection, like the second death, is paradoxical in character. As the second death implicitly includes and accompanies an act of bodily resurrection, so the first resurrection implicitly includes and accompanies bodily death. We find an allusion to just this bodily death in Revelation 20:4, the souls of those who had been beheaded. The phrase refers to those who have suffered martyrdom for not worshiping the Beast. These are now disembodied souls living in the presence of God and of Christ, as represented in Revelation 6:9-10. The important thing to see is that these souls are living, triumphant, because of their union with Christ and victory through his blood (Revelation 12:11). The assertion and enjoyment of their triumph is not simply postponed until the Second Coming. They enjoy victory even at the moment of the death, for God places them in positions of authority and judgment in the heavenly realms (thrones, Revelation 20:4). The judges and earthly authorities who condemned them to death are already beaten by this greater authority that the saints exercise in heaven.

The picture in Revelation 20:4-6 thus answers a very pressing and practical problem during times of intense persecution. When Christians are a tiny, powerless minority, when great imperial powers are arrayed against them, is there any hope for victory? What happens when Christians see some of their brothers and sisters put to death? It appears to worldly eyes that Christians have been decisively defeated. The world has won the battle. The persecuting governors are very much alive and as powerful as ever, while the Christians have been simply wiped out. Christianity appears to be a meaningless, hopelessly weak religion. Does God not care? Is he really in control? And what could possibly undo the defeat that Christians have suffered through their martyrdom? Revelation 20:4-6 answers that heavenly realities must be included in true reckoning. And when we see these realities, the tables are completed turned. Defeating Christians is impossible. Even when demonic forces rage and strut and do their utmost, they only succeed in establishing Christians in positions of real and permanent power! The reigning of saints in verse 4 corresponds to the promise in 2:26-27 and 3:21.

So what is the first resurrection? The correlations between first and second death and first and second resurrection suggest that the first resurrection is a picture of the spiritual life of martyrs who reign with Christ between the time of their martyrdom and the Second Coming. So... The first resurrection is the raising of individuals from death in sin to life in Christ, which is our spiritual new birth of the Spirit (John 3:5-8; Romans 6:8-11; Colossians 3:1-4; Ephesians. 2:6; 1 Peter 1:3).

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

By "the church," Ronald, do you mean the the church age? If so, I agree with at least that part; this is the age of the church (Christ's church), in which it is being built, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:20-22 ~ we are being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, and in Him we are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. I agree that it started at Pentecost, but I would say that the church age ends when the structure is complete at the end of the age, when all of Israel, including Gentiles and Jewish believers ~ when the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in and then the partial hardening that is on Israel now is removed ~ all of Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-26).

The whole church is raptured before the tribulation begins at some point from now until right before Israel and the AC enter into that 7 year covenant. Remember we are also the espoused to jesus- HIs fiancee'. the church is shown in heaven in REv. 19 and it says she had made herself ready. If the church ends after Jesus returns then obviously the church is not made ready for there will still be believers on earth, they have not been clothed in fine linen white and clean!

There were saints before Israel, there were saints in Israel, there are saints in the church age and there will be saints after the church is raptured!

This is when Christ's millennial reign ~ in/from heaven, from the right hand of God, through the course of which the saints have been coming to life and reigning with Him for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6) ~ the millennium, the age of the Church, which is synonymous with "these last days" in which the Father "has spoken to us by His Son" (Hebrews 1:2)... is brought to a close. Indeed, the "us" in Hebrews 1:2 is His Church.

RNo teh church is not reigning with Jesus. those who reign with Jesus are those saints who refused to take the mark and were beheaded. god made it very specific who would reign. Yes the us in Hebrews is the church, the body of Christ , the bride of christ. It ends before the tribulation begins.

This is a misunderstanding. The events of Revelation 20 are not a continuation from the events at the close of Revelation 19. This speaks to the construction of Revelation as a whole. It is not purely sequential, but rather a retelling (in different ways, using different imagery) of the Church age leading up to the return of Jesus several ~ seven, actually ~ times. Revelation 20:1 through Revelation 21:8 is actually the seventh retelling. With regard specifically to Revelation 19 and Revelation 20, Revelation19:11-21 is to be seen as the same event described in Revelation 20:7-10. Consider the following:

• Similar language from Ezekiel 38-39 is used in the various descriptions of the final battle.
• The judgment of Satan in 20:10 parallels the judgments against Babylon (Revelation 17-18) and against the Beast and the False Prophet (Revelation 19:11-21). These enemies of God all receive their doom, and the visions depicting their doom are thematically rather than chronologically arranged.
• Certain features in Revelation 20:11-15 correspond to earlier descriptions of the Second Coming (Revelation 6:14; Revelation 11:18).
• Most important, all Christ’s enemies have been destroyed in Revelation 19:11-21. If Revelation 20:1-6 were to represent events later than Revelation 19:11-21, there would be no one left for Satan to deceive in Revelation 20:3.

Thus, 20:1-15 is to be seen as a 7th cycle leading to the Second Coming. It parallels all the other cycles, rather than representing a unique period chronologically later than any of the others.

A 7th cycle? Nope.
And rev. 20 is a continuation! Jesus promised to come back and judge and grant people admission ot the kingdom on earth. Rev. 19 shows Him coming and REv. 20 shows those who get to rule and the first resurrection. They are sequential. There is nothing in Scripture to warrant saying they are not sequential.

Th eonly language similar is the terms Gog and Magog! Those involved are different, the way they are destroyed is different, and the results are different. They are not the same.
Rev. 6:14 is not the second coming- it is simply a recognition by worldly people that the 70th week of Daniel or the tribulation has begun!
Rev. 11:18? it is declaring the time period ofr all these things has commenced. Time is Kairos which denotes a time pewriod not a day or singular event.

These facts provide the decisive clues for understanding the first and the second resurrection. The first resurrection is preliminary, while the second resurrection is final and last. The second resurrection is clearly bodily resurrection. It is clearly the remedy for the first death, bodily death. Conversely, the first resurrection is a kind of remedy for the second death, according to Revelation 20:6. The first resurrection guarantees freedom from the second death. The various symmetries suggest that the first resurrection, like the second death, is paradoxical in character. As the second death implicitly includes and accompanies an act of bodily resurrection, so the first resurrection implicitly includes and accompanies bodily death. We find an allusion to just this bodily death in Revelation 20:4, the souls of those who had been beheaded. The phrase refers to those who have suffered martyrdom for not worshiping the Beast. These are now disembodied souls living in the presence of God and of Christ, as represented in Revelation 6:9-10. The important thing to see is that these souls are living, triumphant, because of their union with Christ and victory through his blood (Revelation 12:11). The assertion and enjoyment of their triumph is not simply postponed until the Second Coming. They enjoy victory even at the moment of the death, for God places them in positions of authority and judgment in the heavenly realms (thrones, Revelation 20:4). The judges and earthly authorities who condemned them to death are already beaten by this greater authority that the saints exercise in heaven.

This word salad is a lot of verbage signifying nothing! Implications, paradoxes, assertions etc. are hogwash. Teh first resurrection is a physical resurrection unto eternal life! The second resurrection is only for the lost! It is trhat si8mple and easy, just as it is written.

 

[PinSeeker]

The whole church is raptured before the tribulation begins at some point from now until right before Israel and the AC enter into that 7 year covenant.

Well, let's just say there are many good Christians who believe along the same lines as you on this, but there are also many good Christians who would agree with me. You and I disagree.

rev. 20 is a continuation! Jesus promised to come back and judge and grant people admission ot the kingdom on earth. Rev. 19 shows Him coming and REv. 20 shows those who get to rule and the first resurrection. They are sequential.

Yes, I get that you and other dispensationalists think so, loud and clear. We can agree to disagree.

There is nothing in Scripture to warrant saying they are not sequential.

One of the most substantial things is in Revelation 19-20 itself. As I said, if Revelation 19 and 20 are purely sequential, then, since all Christ’s enemies have been destroyed in Revelation 19:11-21, there is no one left for Satan to deceive when we get into Revelation 20:1-6, specifically to Revelation 20:3. So even on it's face, Revelation 20:1-6 is clearly backtracking to a point in time at least somewhat before the events of Revelation 19:11-21.

teh church is not reigning with Jesus.

Not in its entirety yet, no. Some of us are reigning not with Jesus, but in Him.

Yes the us in Hebrews is the church, the body of Christ , the bride of christ. It ends before the tribulation begins.

The Church age ~ the age of the Gentiles, and then the removal of the partial hardening on Israel ~ will end, not the Church. And... the time of tribulation is now. All this will come to an end at the return of Christ.

A 7th cycle? Nope.

Yes.

Rev. 6:14 is not the second coming- it is simply a recognition by worldly people that the 70th week of Daniel or the tribulation has begun!
Rev. 11:18? it is declaring the time period ofr all these things has commenced. Time is Kairos which denotes a time pewriod not a day or singular event.

Here is how John structured Revelation:

I. Prologue 1:1-3
II. Greeting 1:4-5a
III. Body 1:5b-22:20

A. Thanksgiving 1:5b-8
B. Main part 1:9-22:6

1. What you have seen 1:9-20
2. What is 2:1-3:22
3. What is to be 4:1-22:5

a. Cycle 1: 7 seals 4:1-8:1
b. Cycle 2: 7 trumpets 8:2-11:19
c. Cycle 3: symbolic figures and the harvest 12:1-14:20
d. Cycle 4: 7 bowls 15:1-16:21
e. Cycle 5: judgment of Babylon 17:1-19:10
f. Cycle 6: white horse judgment 19:11-21
g. Cycle 7: white throne judgment 20:1-21:8
h. The 8th and culminating act: new Jerusalem 21:9-22:5​

C. Final instructions and exhortations 22:6-20​

IV. Closing salutation 22:21​

This word salad is a lot of verbage signifying nothing!

LOL! Well, I can say the same thing about what you're saying, Ronald. Maybe it's better to have a thoughtful discussion rather than just yelling and screaming and stomping up and down and ranting and raving, no?

Teh first resurrection is a physical resurrection unto eternal life! The second resurrection is only for the lost!

Disagree on both counts. The first resurrection is individual, at some point in our lifetime, when we are born again of the Spirit, resurrected spiritually and raised to new life in Christ (Ezekiel 36, Ephesians 2, 1 Peter 1, Revelation 20:4-6, among other references). The second is general, experienced by all, and takes two opposite forms, either to life or to judgment (John 5:28-29, Revelation 20:11-12).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

One of the most substantial things is in Revelation 19-20 itself. As I said, if Revelation 19 and 20 are purely sequential, then, since all Christ’s enemies have been destroyed in Revelation 19:11-21, there is no one left for Satan to deceive when we get into Revelation 20:1-6, specifically to Revelation 20:3. So even on it's face, Revelation 20:1-6 is clearly backtracking to a point in time at least somewhat before the events of Revelation 19:11-21.

If you think that it is because you have been taught wrong. The survivors of the tribulation who are saved will enter the millenial kingdom on earth. They will repopulate the earth. In Isaiah it shows that someone 100 years old will be considered an infant. And they will have to that birthday to receive Christ or die. so when satan is loosed after the thousand years He will lead a outh rebellion.

Well, let's just say there are many good Christians who believe along the same lines as you on this, but there are also many good Christians who would agree with me. You and I disagree.

Yes there is a huge gap between dispys and covenantal believers in eschatology.

Yes, I get that you and other dispensationalists think so, loud and clear. We can agree to disagree.

At least I flow smoothly and cleanly. Covenantal eschatology requires that only the book of revelation is sometimes sequential, sometimes not and it then requires a man to tell you which is and which is not! I see that as a dangerous position to leave whole chapters of Scripture up to a man.

Not in its entirety yet, no. Some of us are reigning not with Jesus, but in Him.

And what does that exactly mean? I see in Gods Word that many will reign WITH Christ, but I do not see a reign in christ.

The Church age ~ the age of the Gentiles, and then the removal of the partial hardening on Israel ~ will end, not the Church. And... the time of tribulation is now. All this will come to an end at the return of Christ.

So you believe we are now living in the 70th week of Daniel or the 7 year tribulation?

Here is how John structured Revelation:

Well I do not have a problem with that, though I do not think John knew that was what he was doing. It seems He was just writing what god told him to. But so I understand you correctly what are the cycles about? are they repetitions all occurring simultaneously?

LOL! Well, I can say the same thing about what you're saying, Ronald. Maybe it's better to have a thoughtful discussion rather than just yelling and screaming and stomping up and down and ranting and raving, no?

Thats what I have been doing! Just trying to have a thoughtful debate.

Disagree on both counts. The first resurrection is individual, at some point in our lifetime, when we are born again of the Spirit, resurrected spiritually and raised to new life in Christ (Ezekiel 36, Ephesians 2, 1 Peter 1, Revelation 20:4-6, among other references). The second is general, experienced by all, and takes two opposite forms, either to life or to judgment (John 5:28-29, Revelation 20:11-12).

Well I am only using the words god inspired to be written by John in Rev. 20. John called that THE first resurrection. If it was good enough for God to inspire, and John to wrtite, I think it is good enough to call it that.

and sorry but there is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection. REsurrection is a standing again. We were never alive spiritually, to be killed spiritually to be resurrected spiritually. We were born dead spiritually! That is the rebirth not a resurrection.

 

[PinSeeker]

If you think that it is because you have been taught wrong.

So you think. Okay, no offense, but your manner of conversation, at least from time to time, is very off-putting to me. That you think I am incorrect in my thinking is quite obvious, and you can rest assured that I think the same of you.

The survivors of the tribulation who are saved will enter the millenial kingdom on earth.

They will exit the millennial kingdom, as will everyone else, because when Jesus returns, the millennial kingdom will be no more, and the eternal kingdom ~ the kingdom in its fullness ~ will have begun. The non-survivors (the wicked) will be sent away from the new heaven and new earth upon execution of the final Judgment.

In Isaiah it shows that someone 100 years old will be considered an infant. And they will have to that birthday to receive Christ or die.

LOL! What? Where are you talking about, Ronald?

At least I flow smoothly and cleanly.

Again, Ronald, no offense, but dispensationalism is filled with contradictions. Such as:

• If there were a "Rapture" that to occur upon Jesus's return, and then He returns again after the "Great Tribulation" for the Judgment, then He has two Second Comings ~ or maybe a Third Coming? ~ which is antithetical to Scripture. We can see in 1 Thessalonians 4 that when He returns, it is once and for all, and surely not "in secret," but with His own "cry of command," and "with the voice of an archangel," and "with the sound of the trumpet of God" (v.16)
• Related to number 1, if there were a seven year Great Tribulation, then the folks who are still here would know, at least pretty much, when Jesus's return ~ or second return, or second second coming... ~ would be. But that would be antithetical to Scripture. The "date-setters" would be happy, I guess...

Covenantal eschatology requires that only the book of revelation is sometimes sequential, sometimes not and it then requires a man to tell you which is and which is not! I see that as a dangerous position to leave whole chapters of Scripture up to a man.

Well I would, too, if that were true, but it's not. As I said, Revelation is structured in a way that it is sequential in each of its sections/cycles, and each of the sections/cycles are parallel, or concurrent.

I see in Gods Word that many will reign WITH Christ, but I do not see a reign in christ.

You and I, Ronald, because we are still alive ~ we haven't yet left this life ~ are reigning in Christ. As Paul says in Ephesians 2:5-6, we have been made alive together with Christ ~ by grace we have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places. Several other passages (1 Peter 5:14; Philippians 1:1; Romans 8:1). Colossians 3:3) speak of our being in Christ. You know this.

On the other hand, Revelation 20:4-6 is speaking of the specifically of saints who have died. They are the ones reigning with Christ. Yes, I am very much aware that Revelation 20:4-6 says, "They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years," and so John is speaking in the past tense as if he has been shown the entire age as if it has already happened. But this is currently happening and increasing in scope, and will surely happen in its entirety, which is the blessing to us who are reading, that God's plans in saving all of His elect will not fail. So, as believers die in this age, they are coming to life and reigning with Christ over the course of this millennium, since Pentecost, and will continue to do so until the end of the age.

So you believe we are now living in the 70th week of Daniel or the 7 year tribulation?

No, actually, I believe that the 70-week period of Daniel's vision terminates in the first advent of Christ and His ministry, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, so that the whole period is from our standpoint past, not at all future.

Gabriel tells Daniel of one period of 70 weeks. Literally, it is 70 “sevens” (the Hebrew word for week). 70 is a symbolical number. Seven is the number of the covenant of God with His people; 10 is the number of fullness. 70, therefore, symbolizes the fulfilment of the covenant of Jehovah, the covenant with Abraham and his seed. The 70 weeks are the period of time from the command to rebuild Jerusalem to Jesus Christ, as the period of the fulfilment of the covenant. In this period, the covenant will be fulfilled. This one period of 70 weeks ends in an event in which, according to verse 24, six things are realized, the finishing of transgression, etc. All of these occur during the first advent of Christ Jesus (from His Incarnation through His resurrection and ascension). In other words...

The breakdown of the 70 weeks in detail: The period begins with the going forth of a command to build Jerusalem (v. 25). This is the decree of Cyrus that Judah may return to Canaan in 537 B.C. 69 weeks takes us to Christ Jesus, “Messiah Prince” (v. 25). This period is divided into two parts: 7 weeks (the period of the troublous building of Jerusalem) and 62 weeks (the period between the testaments). So the 69 weeks takes us up to “Messiah Prince" ~ they extend from Cyrus’ decree to the birth of Jesus. Then, the 70th week follows, the “one week” of verse 27. This is the period of the life and work of Jesus Christ that belongs to His first advent, inclusive of the resurrection, ascension, and perhaps, the outpouring of the Spirit. The period of Jesus’ ministry was the 70th week, the period of the fulfilment of the covenant. So, the 70-week period terminates in the first advent of Christ, so that the whole period is from our standpoint past, not at all future.

Well I do not have a problem with that, though I do not think John knew that was what he was doing. It seems He was just writing what god told him to.

Hm. Well, there's no way to know, really. I would disagree with what you say here about John, but I can't argue with you. But the structure of the book is what it is. Did John completely understand? Well, I would say probably more than you give him credit for, but all that is immaterial, really.

Thats what I have been doing! Just trying to have a thoughtful debate.

Well, in fits and spurts, maybe... I'm kidding with you, here, Ronald. But it seems you've gotten, at times, a little bit to... emotionally involved, shall we say...

Well I am only using the words god inspired to be written by John in Rev. 20.

There's more to it than just using the words, Ronald.

John called that THE first resurrection. If it was good enough for God to inspire, and John to wrtite, I think it is good enough to call it that.

Case in point (see above). Yes, but the nature of the first resurrection is at issue, and when it occurred/occurs. See above.

and sorry but there is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection. Resurrection is a standing again. We were never alive spiritually, to be killed spiritually to be resurrected spiritually.

Resurrection is being raised from the dead. We are resurrected from the spiritual dead, from death in our sins.

We were born dead spiritually!

Agreed.

That is the rebirth not a resurrection.

It's both. The rebirth follows our former state of death in our sin, which we have from our physical conception and birth. And we are raised to life in Christ, no longer dead in our sin but alive and living to God. Spiritually, we have been resurrected from the dead, made alive in Christ, born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So you think. Okay, no offense, but your manner of conversation, at least from time to time, is very off-putting to me. That you think I am incorrect in my thinking is quite obvious, and you can rest assured that I think the same of you.

Yeazh I try to soften my sound, but at nearly 68 it is hard to teach this old dog new tricks. I am not mad or trying to be insulting, I have always been very very blunt and direct and nowadays that is taken as very insulting.

They will exit the millennial kingdom, as will everyone else, because when Jesus returns, the millennial kingdom will be no more, and the eternal kingdom ~ the kingdom in its fullness ~ will have begun. The non-survivors (the wicked) will be sent away from the new heaven and new earth upon execution of the final Judgment.

that is incorrect biblically. The OT is packed with facts about life on earth during the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth! Jesus returns in Rev. 19, and then we see in 20 that those who had not taken the mark and were beheaded live and reign with HIm for 1,000 years. Here on earth. we arew not in the millenial kingdom now. We are not living on the earth Jesus is directly reigning over. Jesus is lLord of the Universe, but satan is still allowed to be the ruler of the planet.

LOL! What? Where are you talking about, Ronald?

That the people who survive "Armageddon" who are believers will enter the kingdom and repopulate the restored earth. they will have sex and bear children and repopulate the planet. It says a sinner will not live past 100. And sinner in the context is an unbeliever! So people will have till their 100th birthday to receive Christ as messiah on the millenial earth.

there are enormous amounts of Scripture that speaks of the millenial kingdom on earth and what takes place. I would recommend Dr. A. FRuchtenbaums epic esachatological work "Footsteps of the Messiah". He goes in to great detail on the 1,000 year kingdom and what will take place on teh earth and hwo the earth will look all from Scripture.

No, actually, I believe that the 70-week period of Daniel's vision terminates in the first advent of Christ and His ministry, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, so that the whole period is from our standpoint past, not at all future.

Gabriel tells Daniel of one period of 70 weeks. Literally, it is 70 “sevens” (the Hebrew word for week). 70 is a symbolical number. Seven is the number of the covenant of God with His people; 10 is the number of fullness. 70, therefore, symbolizes the fulfilment of the covenant of Jehovah, the covenant with Abraham and his seed. The 70 weeks are the period of time from the command to rebuild Jerusalem to Jesus Christ, as the period of the fulfilment of the covenant. In this period, the covenant will be fulfilled. This one period of 70 weeks ends in an event in which, according to verse 24, six things are realized, the finishing of transgression, etc. All of these occur during the first advent of Christ Jesus (from His Incarnation through His resurrection and ascension). In other words...

The breakdown of the 70 weeks in detail: The period begins with the going forth of a command to build Jerusalem (v. 25). This is the decree of Cyrus that Judah may return to Canaan in 537 B.C. 69 weeks takes us to Christ Jesus, “Messiah Prince” (v. 25). This period is divided into two parts: 7 weeks (the period of the troublous building of Jerusalem) and 62 weeks (the period between the testaments). So the 69 weeks takes us up to “Messiah Prince" ~ they extend from Cyrus’ decree to the birth of Jesus. Then, the 70th week follows, the “one week” of verse 27. This is the period of the life and work of Jesus Christ that belongs to His first advent, inclusive of the resurrection, ascension, and perhaps, the outpouring of the Spirit. The period of Jesus’ ministry was the 70th week, the period of the fulfilment of the covenant. So, the 70-week period terminates in the first advent of Christ, so that the whole period is from our standpoint past, not at all future.

YOur math is terrible! If you hold the 70th week began with Cyrus decree in 537 B.C. then 70 7's or 490 years takes us to 47 B.C. So that is wrong because Jesus was not born in 47 BC 4-6 BC by our modern Calander yes.

Also the intercalary period was 400 years not 434 years.

Jesus never made a 7 year covenant with Israel.

Jesus did not end the practice of the sacrificial system while on earth. Rome did that in 70AD. Jesus ended the covering that teh blood of bulls of goats gave by shedding His blood, but the system kept in practice till 70 AD.

Well, in fits and spurts, maybe... I'm kidding with you, here, Ronald. But it seems you've gotten, at times, a little bit to... emotionally involved, shall we say...

Well you can believe it or not, but when I write I am cool calm collected. sometimes amazed or amused but never angry or looking to squash someone.

Resurrection is being raised from the dead. We are resurrected from the spiritual dead, from death in our sins.

But that is not the first resurrection of Rev. 20.

also in order to be resurrected. One has to be alive first! We were never alive spiritually. We were born spiritually dead. That is why salvation is never called a spiritual resurrection but a new birth! Because the moment we are saved we are born- nor resurrected spiritually.


Well I am off till Tues or Weds to visit one of our 6 kids with his wife and precious granddaughter. Till then- Peace.