New Views on the Rapture

[veteran]

Who among any of us here are able to say that Christians who believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture are condemned for believing that?

To put it bluntly, none of us is qualified to do that.

The people that believe this are people that love Jesus just as much as you and I.

You should be more concerned how well they are going to handle it if it is found they are incorrect and Jesus doesn't return until after the Tribulation.

Using the standard some people her are using, if the Pre-Trib Rapture turns out to be correct, those who don't believe it will not be taken up.....because they didn't believe it. Regardless of their relationship with Jesus.


So, to put it more succinctly, a belief in something such as the Pre-Trib Rapture does NOT negate a Christian's salvation if it is wrong.

They have still given their life to Jesus, trying to live a life free of sin, trying to serve him with their whole heart.

If you believe they are wrong, you should pray they "see the light" or that they are spiritually mature enough in God to handle it when the time their believe the Rapture was going to occur passes.

Not one person on this board is qualified to say this specfiic believe negates their salvation.

God's Word is Truth, and we can either be in align with It, or not. It's each person's choice. There's little consolation for those who disregard It and instead play with It like it's some roulette wheel. There's no sugar coating it like the soothsayers like to do in order to drum up business behind the pulpit. If their congregations are too weak-minded to heed God's Word as written, then both them and their blind leaders fall in the ditch.

The great apostasy that Apostle Paul revealed will happen per 2 Thess.2 is specifically about the act of bowing in false worship to a pseudo-Christ, the one he called the "man of sin", "son of perdition" and "that Wicked". Our Lord Jesus also warned to not believe on the 'pseudochristos' who many will say is Christ, and He gave details of what that false one is going to do in Rev.13. He also gave us the event order and signs of when to expect His coming and our gathering to Him as after that tribulation per the Matt.24 and Mark 13 chapters, and the rest of God's Word aligns with that event order.

For those who refuse to heed His warning about that, what else is left there for them to default to but that false messiah who comes first? Some simply are getting ready to hookup the jumper cables wrong and it's gonna' cause a huge arc, causing them trouble, simply for not heeding the Instructions as written.

 

[Duckybill]

You don't have opinion?

What is opinion anyway? If two people study on how to charge a car battery using a charger, and one of them mixes up the positive and negative sides, what's going to happen, in your opinion?

Certainly I have opinions. But I don't go around telling others that they are gonna worship the anti-Christ if they don't believe in the rapture. That's the same as telling them they are going to Hell, BTW.

Ducky I am not suggesting anyone "be silent" on the subject - unless they want to claim that someone who believes in Pre-Tribulation has somehow forfeited their salvation.

A person who says that a Pre-Tribber is more likely to worship the anti-Christ shows there is no real interst there in finding out any truth.

Once the discussion has moved to something like that, any chance of real give and take is gone.

Thanks for clarifying. I agree with much of what you say.

 

[Foreigner]

God's Word is Truth, and we can either be in align with It, or not. It's each person's choice. There's little consolation for those who disregard It and instead play with It like it's some roulette wheel. There's no sugar coating it like the soothsayers like to do in order to drum up business behind the pulpit. If their congregations are too weak-minded to heed God's Word as written, then both them and their blind leaders fall in the ditch.

The great apostasy that Apostle Paul revealed will happen per 2 Thess.2 is specifically about the act of bowing in false worship to a pseudo-Christ, the one he called the "man of sin", "son of perdition" and "that Wicked". Our Lord Jesus also warned to not believe on the 'pseudochristos' who many will say is Christ, and He gave details of what that false one is going to do in Rev.13. He also gave us the event order and signs of when to expect His coming and our gathering to Him as after that tribulation per the Matt.24 and Mark 13 chapters, and the rest of God's Word aligns with that event order.

For those who refuse to heed His warning about that, what else is left there for them to default to but that false messiah who comes first? Some simply are getting ready to hookup the jumper cables wrong and it's gonna' cause a huge arc, causing them trouble, simply for not heeding the Instructions as written.

-- I am confused as to what you are saying. Pre-Tribbers are waiting to be saved via the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

But they read the Word just like you and know how the anti-Christ is going to be recognized and what to avoid just as well as you. (Matt 24: 6-7)

I am sorry but I just can't make the jump that if the Rapture doesn't occur when they expect it that they are automatically more likely bow down to the Anti-Christ.

To the contrary, if they aren't Raptured as they expect, they will turn even deeper into the Word to understand and be prepared for what is to come.

Matt. 24 states that except for Grace even the strongest of Christians would be misled. Many WILL be misled regardless of their stance on the Rapture. (Matt. 24:10)

The Tribulation will see many Christians - today's Pre-Tribbers, Mid-Tribbers, Post-Tribbers - bowing down and worshiping the anti-Christ.

Just because a person is a Post-Tribber does not mean they automatically will make it through the Tribulation.

That is why, Pre, Mid, or Post Trib, we are to be asking the Holy Spirit for wisdom and discernment.


.

 

[aspen]

Who among any of us here are able to say that Christians who believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture are condemned for believing that?

To put it bluntly, none of us is qualified to do that.

The people that believe this are people that love Jesus just as much as you and I.

You should be more concerned how well they are going to handle it if it is found they are incorrect and Jesus doesn't return until after the Tribulation.

Using the standard some people her are using, if the Pre-Trib Rapture turns out to be correct, those who don't believe it will not be taken up.....because they didn't believe it. Regardless of their relationship with Jesus.


So, to put it more succinctly, a belief in something such as the Pre-Trib Rapture does NOT negate a Christian's salvation if it is wrong.

They have still given their life to Jesus, trying to live a life free of sin, trying to serve him with their whole heart.

If you believe they are wrong, you should pray they "see the light" or that they are spiritually mature enough in God to handle it when the time their believe the Rapture was going to occur passes.

Not one person on this board is qualified to say this specfiic believe negates their salvation.

I agree. Also, the idea that one group of believers is more likely to fall away does not take into account how vulnerable we all are to heresy and antichrists.

 

[veteran]

-- I am confused as to what you are saying. Pre-Tribbers are waiting to be saved via the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

But they read the Word just like you and know how the anti-Christ is going to be recognized and what to avoid just as well as you. (Matt 24: 6-7)

No, those on the pre-trib doctrines do not read The Word of God the same way, for there is only Scripture support for our gathering to Christ at His coming after... the tribulation, not before it (Matthew 24:29-32; Mark 13:24-27). There simply is no Scripture support for a coming of Christ prior to the tribulation, period.

Few if any of those on the pre-trib doctrine realize how the coming pseudo-Christ is going to play our Lord Jesus, even doing miracles and wonders like our Lord Jesus would do. Instead, most of them are taught the Antichrist is going to fulfill the role of the antichrist types of past history, like the Roman emperors, kings of Assyria, Babylon, etc., and that he will be easily recognizable. That's one of the problems those on the pre-trib doctrines have difficulty with per Scripture. This is why Apostle Paul gave the warning of 2 Corinthians 11 about the "another Jesus", linking that with how the serpent deceived Eve.

The world ecumenical movements happening right now, with various religions of the world joining hands to admit they all worship the same God, is a major 'sign' of how the pseudo-Christ is going to fool a major portion of Christian brethren. Already many Christian leaders in the West are getting on-board with that movement, and accept that Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc., all worship the same God, but just under different names. Deceived Christian pastors who take part in that won't have a problem telling you the pseudo-Christ is The LORD, and their LORD too, everybody's LORD, regardless of religion, name, or language. When the pseudo-Christ does show up, who do you think those pastors will be telling you that is, and what you as a Christian should do?

I am sorry but I just can't make the jump that if the Rapture doesn't occur when they expect it that they are automatically more likely bow down to the Anti-Christ.

To the contrary, if they aren't Raptured as they expect, they will turn even deeper into the Word to understand and be prepared for what is to come.

I'd like to think all on that pre-trib doctrine won't be deceived by that coming pseudo-Christ playing the "another Jesus". But Paul did speak of the falling away of many believers for that time (2 Thess.2:3-4). It won't be because of God's Word that many of those will fall away to the deception. It will be because of their heeding the doctrines of their deceived leaders instead of God in His Word. Their pastors are not heeding God's Word as written on these matters anymore than their congregations.

Matt. 24 states that except for Grace even the strongest of Christians would be misled. Many WILL be misled regardless of their stance on the Rapture. (Matt. 24:10)

The Tribulation will see many Christians - today's Pre-Tribbers, Mid-Tribbers, Post-Tribbers - bowing down and worshiping the anti-Christ.

Just because a person is a Post-Tribber does not mean they automatically will make it through the Tribulation.

That is why, Pre, Mid, or Post Trib, we are to be asking the Holy Spirit for wisdom and discernment.

Only those of Christ's servants that keep their focus on Him, and refuse to bow to the coming pseudo-Christ, and instead wait for Christ to gather them after that false one's working, will be overcomers through Jesus Christ, and thus His elect. That includes any of the saints that are killed for not bowing to the pseudo-Christ also. So clearly, someone who understands that pseudo-Christ must come first to do that evil working of deception will be more prepared to make that stand for Jesus during the tribulation. That is what post-trib belief contains, i.e., an understanding that we must all go through the tribulation and overcome it through Christ Jesus, waiting for His return to gather us.

Honestly look at how pre-trib doctrines understand our Lord's Messages about being the first one 'taken' in the field per Luke 17. A closer look at what He taught with the last verse of Luke 17 reveals being the first one 'taken' is not about a rapture to Him, but rather like a dead carcase being gathering to the eagles (vultures) where they will be. It is a warning for us against being deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ.

So I say, let the unbelieving Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Satanists, etc., flock to that pseudo-Christ when he comes. But we who are to remain in Christ Jesus all the way to the end, let us NOT flock to that fake pseudo-Christ, and believe not on that false one who comes first.

 

[rockytopva]

Raptured out...

 

[Foreigner]

I am sorry Veteran but nothing you have said gives credence to the idea that just because someone is a Pre-Tribber, they are any less qualified to recognize the anti-Christ - or the others that are going to show up (some doing "signs and wonders") claiming to be Him.


Scores of Christians will be deceived - Pre, Mid, and Post Tribbers alike. That is, But that is due to the strength of their personal relationship with Jesus.


I will point out one simple fact that seems to be overlooked about Pre-Tribbers. They expect to see Jesus in the sky and be drawn up to met Him there.


So by that doctrine alone they are pre-disposed to rejecting the a 'pseudo-Christ' that is walking the earth - even if it appears he can do miracles.


Again, just because someone is a Pre-Tribber, it does not mean the identity of the anti-Christ is lost on them.


They ARE aware of what the Bible says is going to happen on the earth at the end of times - whether they are here or not.


I know a young man who leans towards the Pre-Tribulation Rapture but readily points the Christians that Revelation mentions being persecuted means that:

A. - The Rapture may not happen until after the Tribulation.

-or-

B. - The scripture is talking about those who, after millions are taken in the Rapture, realize this whole "Jesus thing" is real, and give their lives to Christ.

In either case, He is aware of how to identify the anti-Christ and the events that are going to transpire where he is here or not.


As I said before, neither you nor I are qualified to judge their salvation quotient based on this one belief.

 

[veteran]

I am sorry Veteran but nothing you have said gives credence to the idea that just because someone is a Pre-Tribber, they are any less qualified to recognize the anti-Christ - or the others that are going to show up (some doing "signs and wonders") claiming to be Him.

Such a statement as that already reveals you're not really aware of the coming pseudo-Christ that our Lord and His Apostles warned of us for the last days. It only reveals what men's doctrines have told you about their antichrist doctrines, and not what all God's Word reveals about that false one. In honesty I say that.

Apostle John taught about one particular antichrist that was to come separately from the "many antichrists" (followers of the one). The followers of the Antichrist are easy to recognize. They are simple flesh men that can only claim to be Jesus Christ, without the works to deceive like the pseudo-Christ will do. Paul gave a specific warning about the coming Antichrist sitting in the temple, showing himself to be God, working great signs and wonders. None of the "many antichrists" have ever done that.

Scores of Christians will be deceived - Pre, Mid, and Post Tribbers alike. That is, But that is due to the strength of their personal relationship with Jesus.

The only ones who will be deceived are those that don't remain in Christ. For those that know Christ's return and our gathering to Him is after the tribulation, the only way they will be deceived is by deliberately turning away from Christ while knowing who the Antichrist is.

I will point out one simple fact that seems to be overlooked about Pre-Tribbers. They expect to see Jesus in the sky and be drawn up to met Him there.

So by that doctrine alone they are pre-disposed to rejecting the a 'pseudo-Christ' that is walking the earth - even if it appears he can do miracles.

Post-tribbers believe Jesus is coming with the clouds too, like how He ascended into Heaven. But some of us also believe the 'harpazo' event is simply about the change at the twinkling of an eye to our "spiritual body" at that time when Christ appears, just as Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 about the resurrection.

There is nothing 'pre-disposing' those on pre-trib from falling away to the pseudo-Christ who comes first. It's because our Lord and His Apostles showed that false one MUST come first, and because there's nothing written about a rapture to Christ PRIOR to the tribulation. That tribulation is the period when that false one will be here on earth while we all are still here and our gathering to Christ is still expecting.

Again, just because someone is a Pre-Tribber, it does not mean the identity of the anti-Christ is lost on them.

They ARE aware of what the Bible says is going to happen on the earth at the end of times - whether they are here or not.

It's written that our gathering to Christ is not until AFTER the tribulation. Those on pre-trib expect to be gathered PRIOR to the tribulation. That's an early gathering. Since the pseudo-Christ comes first per Scripture, those pre-tribbers will be exactly the ones he is going to gather to himself. That's what the untimely fig metaphor is about. It's what The Lord's "blessed are the barren" parable is about. That's what being the first one taken in the field is about. It's about being gathered too early, and to the wrong one.

I know a young man who leans towards the Pre-Tribulation Rapture but readily points the Christians that Revelation mentions being persecuted means that:

A. - The Rapture may not happen until after the Tribulation.

-or-

B. - The scripture is talking about those who, after millions are taken in the Rapture, realize this whole "Jesus thing" is real, and give their lives to Christ.

In either case, He is aware of how to identify the anti-Christ and the events that are going to transpire where he is here or not.

As I said before, neither you nor I are qualified to judge their salvation quotient based on this one belief.

I have judged no man unto condemnation. All I've done is give warning against deception to the first one that comes as written, the pseudo-Christ our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned that must come first. That's why I can say those on the Pre-trib doctrines are in danger with that not being an opinion.

 

[Foreigner]

Such a statement as that already reveals you're not really aware of the coming pseudo-Christ that our Lord and His Apostles warned of us for the last days. It only reveals what men's doctrines have told you about their antichrist doctrines, and not what all God's Word reveals about that false one.

- Ah, I see. You have a good day Veteran.

 

[veteran]

- Ah, I see. You have a good day Veteran.

I hope you understood my meaning. There's a difference with men's popular notions about the identity of the antichrist and what God's Word reveals about the final antichrist.

You have a good day too brother.

 

[Charlie]

To whom it may concern:

2. Thess. 2:3-4, from the KJV, reads:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.[]b]

The temple in question will not be built until after the start of the 7 year tribulation period therefore it will not be possible for the antichrist to sit in that temple until after the start of the 7 years.

As a pre-tribber, I have been interested in the falling away that has been taking place and have concluded, if I should be on earth at the time the antichrist will sit in the tribulation temple, I will know I have not been "accounted worthy" to 'escape all these things that shall come to pass', as per Luke 21:34-36.

God Bless you. Charlie

 

[TWC]

To whom it may concern:

2. Thess. 2:3-4, from the KJV, reads:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.[]b]

The temple in question will not be built until after the start of the 7 year tribulation period therefore it will not be possible for the antichrist to sit in that temple until after the start of the 7 years.

So basically it's imminent, but because certain things have to happen first, it's not imminent?

As a pre-tribber, I have been interested in the falling away that has been taking place and have concluded, if I should be on earth at the time the antichrist will sit in the tribulation temple, I will know I have not been "accounted worthy" to 'escape all these things that shall come to pass', as per Luke 21:34-36.

God Bless you. Charlie

When this doctrine proves false (it's not like scripture hasn't done this already...), how many do you think are going have serious doubts about their salvation? What happens when someone then comes along to offer what they think they're looking for? Those who fall to a lie easily refuted with scripture are much more susceptible to fall for a lie that really calls for understanding and discernment. I'm sure the five foolish virgins from Matthew 25 would've had the same mentality, thinking, "Oh, if my lamp runs out of oil before the bridegroom comes, then I'll know I should've brought some with me."

 

[veteran]

Truly, what kind of mental state is that which thinks like, "well, if I'm still here when the Antichrist shows up, it has to mean I wasn't worthy enough to escape"?

That is evidence of confusion. It's a sign of being so bull-dog-headed in holding to a doctrine of man, that even when the events don't turn out according to men's doctrine, then some excuse for it must be dreamed up, because it could never... be a lie to start with! It sounds too good to be a lie, just can't be!

Apostle Paul was spot-on when he proclaimed those being 'drunken in the night', and because of that state they don't remain sober and watching. The Pre-trib rapture doctrine isn't associated with the idea of 'immanence' for nothing.

 

[Charlie]

So basically it's imminent, but because certain things have to happen first, it's not imminent?

When this doctrine proves false (it's not like scripture hasn't dandone this already...), how many do you think are going have serious doubts about their salvation? What happens when someone then comes along to offer what they think they're looking for? Those who fall to a lie easily refuted with scripture are much more susceptible to fall for a lie that really calls for understanding and discernment. I'm sure the five foolish virgins from Matthew 25 would've had the same mentality, thinking, "Oh, if my lamp runs out of oil before the bridegroom comes, then I'll know I should've brought some with me."

How do you interpret the 'accounted worthy' of Luke 20:35-36 and 21:36?

They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Rev.3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

They'll be accounted worthy and will escape, my friend.

God Bless you. Charlie

 

[Duckybill]

So basically, those here against pre-trib continuously speculate and make false accusations against pre-tribbers. When I first started reading in this forum I wasn't aware how blatantly hostile some of you are against pre-trib. It is far beyond what I realized. Do you really believe you have obtained salvation by living this way? Basing your salvation upon the 'rapture' doctrine won't save anyone. Some of you have a rude awakening coming.

 

[veteran]

Let's just see the true order of events Apostle Paul proclaimed in 2 Thess.2, instead of relying on the false leanings of men's doctrines...


The MAIN QUESTION to be answered here, is who comes first, the pseudo-Christ, or our True Lord Jesus Christ?

II Th 2:1-12
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

The subject? The "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ", and "by our gathering together unto Him." Ain't no room for error there. That's the subject Apostle Paul is giving here. He's going to reveal in what order that is also.


2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Some false prophets had crept in among them, distorting this subject of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him, even involving fake letters passed off as being from Paul and Christ's Apostles. Paul warned to not be troubled by them, that the day of Christ is at hand. The "day of Christ" phrase is "day of The Lord" per the Greek.

So already, Paul gave one time marker for Christ's coming and our gathering to Him. It's on "the day of The Lord". Paul also gave that same marker in his first Epistle to the Thessalonians. It's in 1 Thessalonians 5, where he proclaimed "the day of The Lord" will come "as a thief in the night." The events of "the day of The Lord" are what ENDS this present world. The OT prophets were given to write much about that day. Peter also proclaimed this in 2 Peter 3:10, associating the burning of the elements (man's works) off this earth. Do you think that means the end of the pseudo-Christ's working too? You bet it does.


3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Both those two verses above go together. Don't let any man deceive you; why would Paul say that? It was because of the false prophets that had crept in among those Thessalonian believers. Paul gives two major signs that must occur BEFORE "that day" comes. Before what "day" comes? The day of The Lord, which is about the time of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him from verses 1 & 2, remember?

The 2 signs are: 1) there come a falling away first, and 2) that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

What working will that man of sin be revealed by? Again 2 signs Paul gives for that: 1) opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, and 2) so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

That temple there... is NOT the Body of Christ. NO false one can pollute the True Temple of God, which Paul clearly showed in Ephesians is represented by our Lord Jesus as its Chief Cornerstone, and His Apostles and the prophets as the foundation, and we His Body as lively stones. That's one of the main distinctions of how we 'know' Paul is speaking of a literal temple, in Jerusalem, which through history has been known to Israel as God's Temple, even with our Lord Jesus referring to the second temple in Jerusalem as the "house of God" (Matt.12; Luke 6).

That is not the only evidence for this temple Paul speaks of being a literal temple in Jerusalem. Around 170 B.C., a man named Antiochus IV conquered Jerusalem and went into the second temple and sacrificed swine upon the altar, and setup an idol abomination to pagan Zeus worship. That's the pattern for the "abomination of desolation" event our Lord Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel in Matt.24 and Mark 13.

So there you have it brethren. Paul was very, very direct that the final Antichrist, "that man of sin", "the son of perdition", MUST come first along with a great falling away of believers.


5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul then asks them didn't they remember before when he spoke to them of those things? Then he's going to give the order to them one more time...


6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Someone is withholding that "man of sin" until it's time for him to be revealed to do his evil working on earth.

Will that "man of sin" have to be here on earth before our Lord's coming to destroy him with the brightness of His coming? Yes, of course!!

Notice Paul also tells us that false one who comes first will work according to Satan "with all power and signs and lying wonders." Does that sound like the same pseudo-Christ our Lord Jesus warned us about in Matt.24:24 and Mark 13:22? Yes. Does that sound like the very same "another beast" our Lord showed John by vision in Revelation 13? Again, YES!


10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Just how is it brethren, that some deny Paul's declaring that false one must come first, and then afterwards our Lord Jesus' coming to destroy him and to gather us?

That phrase "they received" is Greek 'dechomai' which can mean 'to take by the hand, to take up' (Thayer's). It has free will associated with it. The deceived do not 'take by the hand' The Truth, nor the love of The Truth. They are subject to the "spirit of slumber" (Rom.11:8). And thus God's Word has become 'a stone of stumbling' to them (1 Pet.2:8; Isaiah 8).


11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(KJV)

That "strong delusion" and "lie" Paul speaks of is about the falling away of many of God's people to that man of sin when he comes to sit in a temple in Jerusalem for the last days.

Many in the pulpits are following iniquity when trying to preach against that order of events Paul gave there. The Pre-trib rapture doctrine is a doctrine of 'iniquity' because it goes DIRECTLY AGAINST that order Paul gave there.

There is no reason to give the deceived even a little room for their pre-trib rapture doctrine being true, for this order of Christ's return and our gathering to Him which Paul gave there is SOLID, IMMOVABLE. It cannot be both ways. It is only one way which God's Word declares, and that is with Christ's return and our gathering after that false one's evil working on earth. Christ's coming will destroy that pseudo-Christ, showing the false one MUST be on earth working evil when Christ returns to gather us. This is a major Scripture evidence that supports Matt.24 and Mark 13 about Christ's return to gather us AFTER the tribulation He mentioned.

 

[Charlie]

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Someone is withholding that "man of sin" until it's time for him to be revealed to do his evil working on earth.

Will that "man of sin" have to be here on earth before our Lord's coming to destroy him with the brightness of His coming? Yes, of course!!

Charlie -- It is interesting to note how a change in the emphasis can change our understanding of some scriptures.. The above is a case in point.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Someone is withholding that "man of sin" until it's time for him to be revealed to do his evil working on earth.

The man of sin will be on earth before the Lord's coming to destoy him with the brightness of His coming but, the man of sin will NOT BE REVEALED to do his evil working until after he who now letteth will let has be taken out of the way.

God Bless you. Charlie

 

[Amazing Grace]

You know it doesn't matter what you believe in relation to the Rapture.

You know Jehovah's Witnesses believe in a kind of Rapture.

Many False Prophets and teachers of God's Word are happy to give long and meaningful sermons about the Rapture (whatever version of it they have decided to believe or teach).

The main problem is many of these people who do believe in a Rapture DENY Christ.

They don't believe in the Deity of Christ and they do not teach repentance and that salvation can only be received through what Jesus did for us on the Cross.

So peddling another gospel they lead people astray.

So back to the Rapture. If you are not Saved in Christ you will not be Raptured at ALL. Even if you believe that a Christian has to go through the Tribulation if you are not Saved through repentance and the blood of Christ you will never SEE the Kingdom of God.

Many supposed Christians today not only don't believe in a Rapture, they deny the Diety of Christ and reject their is Eternal Punishment and many more teaching that were taught in the Church when I was young. I don't even recognise the Christianity of today or should I call it the Xianity since most have removed Christ from their salvation teaching today.

Not sure what version of the Bible you believe in or what parts of the Bible you feel are essential to your own brand of Faith.

I pray and hope that you will come to at least the Truth that you cannot earn your way to Heaven and you need to repent and recieve the FREE GIft Jesus provided for mankind. Salvation is a gift from God that was purchased through the Blood of His own Son.

Once you have repented and recieved salvation you will be filled with the Holy Spirit. Pray and ask the Lord to reveal to you everything you need to know on while you are on this Earth.

2PE 1:2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

2PE 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

2PE 1:10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[gemmax]

Hey, Everyone


Regarding the Rapture. I've been a Christian for many years, and have become convinced that the belief that there will be a 'Rapture" or "Meeting in the Sky" now seems quite clear to me. As one studies the Word, particularly the events of the end times , it just doesn't fit that those who have already given their lives to the Lord would have to prove their faith by literally giving their lives for their faith; particularly since that requirement has not been required of all that have gone before, and that seems a sort of Judgement to me. I believe that Jesus will indeed meet us in the air and take us to live with Him. I also believe that we will be the army that comes back with Him for the Second Coming when He actually comes to Earth again.

 

[veteran]

Hey, Everyone


Regarding the Rapture. I've been a Christian for many years, and have become convinced that the belief that there will be a 'Rapture" or "Meeting in the Sky" now seems quite clear to me. As one studies the Word, particularly the events of the end times , it just doesn't fit that those who have already given their lives to the Lord would have to prove their faith by literally giving their lives for their faith; particularly since that requirement has not been required of all that have gone before, and that seems a sort of Judgement to me. I believe that Jesus will indeed meet us in the air and take us to live with Him. I also believe that we will be the army that comes back with Him for the Second Coming when He actually comes to Earth again.

You may believe some of those things as you wish, but quite a bit of what you say there just isn't Biblical. There's plenty of Scripture evidence for how believers have had to suffer persecution, especially with the OT prophets and in Paul's case...

Heb 11:36-38
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
(KJV)

Apostle Paul speaking of his own trials and sufferings...

2 Cor 11:23-31
23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
(KJV)

To fear death of the flesh and persecutions that come from following Christ Jesus is to be weak in the Faith. Fearing death also puts one's emotions in play for the false prophets to use against a believer. The pre-trib rapture preachers use that particular fear tactic a lot, not making up the hedge for God's people to stand in the battle of the day of The Lord (Ezek.13).