No Escape : From Hell

[GodsGrace]

Sorry to waste everybody's time, I must be getting old I don't know, I heard one time when this guy was fairly old.. and he was talking to somebody on the public bus and he made no sense at all.. I reread my comments over and over, I thought the words made sense.

Thanks for your advice though i'll try better next time.

You live in Arizona?
Your day is ended.
Mine is just beginning!

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry to waste everybody's time, I must be getting old I don't know, I heard one time when this guy was fairly old.. and he was talking to somebody on the public bus and he made no sense at all.. I reread my comments over and over, I thought the words made sense.

Thanks for your advice though i'll try better next time.

Walter,
I was in Arizona many moons ago.
I got out in Bumblebee - many cacti - to take some pictures.
Our first stop. It was 113°
I couldn't breath!
Ran back to the rented car.
Beautiful state.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Wow. You sure do like to write...
but you don't like to READ.

YOU said the early Christians were being deceived.

How “early” are we speaking here?
The first Christians were protected from the foretold apostasy by the presence of the apostles. Paul said that the apostles were acting as a “restraint” against that apostasy, even though it was starting to make it’s presence felt. (2Thess 2:6-12) Once the apostles were “out of the way”, the restraint was gone, and corruption soon overtook “the church”.

If Jesus and the apostles had foretold this apostasy, then nothing was going to stop it….the church introduced it and it happened unimpeded from the second century onward.
You can pretend it didn’t happen, but we will all find out when Jesus makes his judgment.

By the time Roman Catholicism was mandated by the Emperor, in the 4th century, the weakened church, (already corrupted from within) was ripe for that takeover….all Constantine did was allow many pagan Roman beliefs and celebrations to slip in and by placing a thin veneer of “Christianity” over these beliefs and practices, the whole population were all catered for….everyone was happy. Christianity looked like paganism and paganism sort of resembled Christianity….

I asked you
HOW could they have known they were being deceived since they DID NOT HAVE A BIBLE WITH WHICH TO CONFIRM THE DECEPTION.

Thank you…….exactly.

You see, it was a question to expose your wrongful thinking....the error in your logic.

I don’t think you have thought this through…..

A person CANNOT know if what they're being taught is legitimate UNLESS they have something with which to compare it.

Thank you again! The church made sure that no one outside of the church would never be able to check anything….and they got away with it for centuries!

My statement is this:
THE EARLY CHURCH WAS TEACHING EXACTLY WHAT THE APOSTLES TAUGHT.

THE EARLY CHURCH KEPT HERESY OUT OF THE CHURCH.

If there was no way to check….and since the words of the apostles were recorded in the Christian Scriptures, as the church gained more power, no one had any way to check the authenticity of anything after the apostles passed away….the church forbade anyone to possess a copy of the Bible.

The “heresy” that they tried to “keep out” was actually the truth, that they didn’t want anyone to know…..the power they gained over time, corrupted them….just as Jesus said it would. God didn’t stop it, because he was the one who predicted it. It didn’t happen recently….

But, alas, in 1840 or so some heresy once gain crept into the church.
And some fell for it.

But, just like in olden times,
THE CHURCH is fighting to keep it out.

The 1800’s was a time of spiritual awakening…the Reformation had broken the power of a corrupted church, but it didn’t unite Christianity….instead, it broke it up into many disunited sects.
As the time drew near for Christ’s return, God was going to wake up those who didn’t accept the unsubstantiated, though accepted teachings of the church systems of Christendom.

You don't trust ANYONE!

That’s not true….I trust God….I trust Jesus…and I trust the Bible….because as John tells us…..
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. ….And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:44; 65 ESV)

If God is the one who draws people to the truth taught by his Son, then he also fails to draw those in whom he finds an unteachable spirit….

WHY do you trust Charles Taze Russell???

I examined the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses for two years….and I checked everything with what the Bible said…..everything was spot on.…fully supported in Scripture, and completely different to the church in which I was raised. It all rang true….and here I am….over 50 years later….still as convinced that it is the truth as I was when I first committed myself to Jehovah in baptism, as a disciple of his Son.

 

[Marymog]

My Church or Leader is ultimately the Bible.. I can explain why I believe something with the Bible alone.

For example I believe in these fundamental beliefs and I let the Bible do all the talking and explaining, I don't have to add any commentary.

- Salvation is a free gift. read these scriptures...
- I observe all Jesus words. read these scriptures...
- I observe all the Bible words. read these scriptures...
- Many inherit the Earth living forever upon it and a little flock inherits heaven and they become priests and judges.. scriptures...
- God gave specific instructions to Moses to engage in war with enemy nations, Jesus gave new instructions on how we are to treat our neighbors, our brothers and sisters and even our enemies. [ We have brothers and sisters in every nation totaling 1,108 languages. ]
- All our fundamental beliefs can be explained with scriptures alone.
- When the Bible does not directly address a topic, Jehovah's Witnesses rely on Bible principles and an informed conscience to make decisions. They research relevant scriptures, and pray for wisdom.

Hey Walter,

Since your "Church or Leader is ultimately the Bible" what do you make of these passages? Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you. Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Who rules over you that you are submissive too? Who is the overseer of your flock that the Holy Spirit has chosen?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Sorry....what? I am an Australian....what has “Thanksgiving” got to do with those who are not American?

You really do get lost in your traditions, imagining that the world is somehow...”American” in all its practices. You got us with Halloween, a relatively new adoption in my country and a wildly successful commercial celebration of all things gruesome and evil....and all the commercial rubbish will continue with the annual circus that is Christmas....soon to descend on a world increasingly struggling to provide food and shelter for their families.
How come santa (an anagram of satan) is so generous to the rich kids but neglects the poor ones? And how come that time of year is notorious with law enforcement officers as the most connected with drunkenness and domestic violence? Where are the happy families?....Fragmented and fighting over who gets the kids at Christmas...often with alcohol fuelled animosity.

Do all the pretty trees and lights make the world’s problems go away?...or has this celebration become an expensive burden with an emotional connection that makes it hard for people not to celebrate it? Where in the Bible will I find a single birthday celebration of any one of God’s ancient servants? The date of Christ’s birth is not mentioned, because Jews did not celebrate birthdays....it was just another pagan adoption.

Don’t get me started....”hell” for many people is right here on earth...

Lol AJ....You crack me up. Out of the kindness of my heart I wished you a Happy Thanksgiving not knowing that you are not American. You turn that kind jester into a bizarre rant.

I now see the kind of person you are....and it isn't pretty!

God bless........Mary

 

[Marymog]

Thank you again! The church made sure that no one outside of the church would never be able to check anything….and they got away with it for centuries!

If there was no way to check….and since the words of the apostles were recorded in the Christian Scriptures, as the church gained more power, no one had any way to check the authenticity of anything after the apostles passed away….the church forbade anyone to possess a copy of the Bible.

The “heresy” that they tried to “keep out” was actually the truth, that they didn’t want anyone to know…..the power they gained over time, corrupted them….just as Jesus said it would. God didn’t stop it, because he was the one who predicted it. It didn’t happen recently….

Hey AJ,

You do realize that this is complete and utter non-factual, non-historical non-sense? Don't you?

Please run (don't walk) away from the false teacher who taught you this. If you have taught yourself this rubbish, I feel bad for you.

God Bless.....Mary

 

[GodsGrace]

How “early” are we speaking here?

Hmmm. You should have asked that way back when....
but, as far as I'm concerned, the early church or Chistians is before the year 300 or 400...maybe 400 is stretching it.

The first Christians were protected from the foretold apostasy by the presence of the apostles. Paul said that the apostles were acting as a “restraint” against that apostasy, even though it was starting to make it’s presence felt. (2Thess 2:6-12) Once the apostles were “out of the way”, the restraint was gone, and corruption soon overtook “the church”.

I don't know what 2 Thes 2:6-12 states so I cannot reply to that.
You should POST scripture - but I find that many do not do this.

You say the Apostles were acting as a restraint?
Looks like they didn't do such a good job.
John was worried about apostacy already being in the church.

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Gnostics had already infiltrated the church.
There were 12 Apostles...HOW do you think they kept heresy out of the church?
HOW did they protect the church?
They couldn't.

The church was protected because, at some point, it was decided by the orthodox church as to what would be Christian and what would not BASED ON APOSTOLIC TEACHINGS.

This was done at Councils.
Yes Ma'am. Man-made councils.

For instance, the first council was at Nicea in 325AD.
The reason this council was called is because some were teaching that Jesus was not God.

Since the original and orthodox church, based on APOSTOLIC TEACHING, has always taught that Jesus is God....
it called this council to CONFIRM and DECLARE that Jesus is God.

Of course, having abandoned the church...the JWs do not believe this.
They DIVIDE the church of God.

The ORTHODOX CHURCH protected Christianity....
Apostles really could not. (individually I mean).

If Jesus and the apostles had foretold this apostasy, then nothing was going to stop it….the church introduced it and it happened unimpeded from the second century onward.
You can pretend it didn’t happen, but we will all find out when Jesus makes his judgment.

You do have a problem understanding Auntie Jane.
THE CHURCH PREVENTED HERESY....
it did NOT cause it.

It's really tiring to have to repeat this.
Why not just learn some history?

Councils are, then, from their nature, a common effort of the Church, or part of the Church, for self-preservation and self-defence. They appear at her very origin, in the time of the Apostles at Jerusalem, and throughout her whole history whenever faith or morals or discipline are seriously threatened. Although their object is always the same, the circumstances under which they meet impart to them a great variety, which renders a classification necessary.

First Ecumenical Council: Nicaea I (325)​

The Council of Nicaea lasted two months and twelve days. Three hundred and eighteen bishops were present. Hosius, Bishop of Cordova, assisted as legate of Pope Sylvester. The Emperor Constantine was also present. To this council we owe The Creed (Symbolum) of Nicaea, defining against Arius the true Divinity of the Son of God (homoousios), and the fixing of the date for keeping Easter (against the Quartodecimans).

source: New Advent Encyclopedia

(or you could use any source)


The HERESY was that Jesus is not God.
The church always taught that He IS God.
So the church protected what was always believed by THE CHURCH.

By the time Roman Catholicism was mandated by the Emperor, in the 4th century, the weakened church, (already corrupted from within) was ripe for that takeover….all Constantine did was allow many pagan Roman beliefs and celebrations to slip in and by placing a thin veneer of “Christianity” over these beliefs and practices, the whole population were all catered for….everyone was happy. Christianity looked like paganism and paganism sort of resembled Christianity….

Emporer Constantine did NOT mandate Christianity.

Please post something that states that he did.
As usual, you have history all mixed up.

And WHICH pagan beliefs do you believe Constantine ALLOWED to slip into Christianity?

Thank you…….exactly.

I don’t think you have thought this through…..

Thank you again! The church made sure that no one outside of the church would never be able to check anything….and they got away with it for centuries!

Not addressing this again.
You clearly do not understand the illogical thinking YOU brought up a few posts ago.

If there was no way to check….and since the words of the apostles were recorded in the Christian Scriptures,

Do you mean letters?
Some of the letters were referred to as scripture....
but the NT did not exist yet.

as the church gained more power, no one had any way to check the authenticity of anything after the apostles passed away….the church forbade anyone to possess a copy of the Bible.

If you want to make this accusation...
you're going to have to post at least a couple of practices the church began that were not taught by the Apostles.
Frankly, I can't think of any.

The “heresy” that they tried to “keep out” was actually the truth, that they didn’t want anyone to know…..the power they gained over time, corrupted them….just as Jesus said it would. God didn’t stop it, because he was the one who predicted it. It didn’t happen recently….

This is such a crazy statement, I will not be replying to it.
You have your history ALL MIXED UP.

The 1800’s was a time of spiritual awakening…the Reformation had broken the power of a corrupted church, but it didn’t unite Christianity….instead, it broke it up into many disunited sects.

Yes Ma'am.
And as I've asked you before..
IS THIS WHAT JESUS WANTED?


John 17:20-21
20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21 that they may all be one;

As the time drew near for Christ’s return, God was going to wake up those who didn’t accept the unsubstantiated, though accepted teachings of the church systems of Christendom.

The JWs got the dates for the return of Jesus wrong too. More than once.
Ever ask youself WHAT ELSE they got wrong?

That’s not true….I trust God….I trust Jesus…and I trust the Bible….because as John tells us…..
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. ….And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:44; 65 ESV)

I replied to this too but you never explained the conflict between two verses I posted.
This is because you do not reply to posts....
You just post a speech to say what YOU want to say.
You shoulda been a politician.

If God is the one who draws people to the truth taught by his Son, then he also fails to draw those in whom he finds an unteachable spirit….

Whoa!
You're sounding a bit calvinistic.
Are you sure you have your theology right?

You're saying that God draws some people but not others?

This is not what Jesus taught, and you claim to be following Jesus:

John 12:32
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to Myself."

I examined the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses for two years….and I checked everything with what the Bible said…..everything was spot on.…fully supported in Scripture, and completely different to the church in which I was raised. It all rang true….and here I am….over 50 years later….still as convinced that it is the truth as I was when I first committed myself to Jehovah in baptism, as a disciple of his Son.

I'm happy for you Auntie Jane.
I won't be changing your mind...
I just wish you had correct information and stopped hating the church you grew up in so much.
The JWs did a good job on you.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Lol AJ....You crack me up. Out of the kindness of my heart I wished you a Happy Thanksgiving not knowing that you are not American. You turn that kind jester into a bizarre rant.

I now see the kind of person you are....and it isn't pretty!

God bless........Mary

Well, I guess we also see what kind of person you are MM....Are you the “kind jester” that you depict?
Be careful how loudly you laugh....it has a way of coming back to bite you. (1 Cor 10:12)

What you deemed as a “bizarre rant” was simply an expose’ of the bizarre rituals observed by those in Christendom....who claim to be “Christians” but who have adopted many pagan celebrations, renamed them, and somehow justified them....in complete defiance of Paul’s warning in 2 Cor 6:14-18....

What Relation Can There Be between Righteousness and Iniquity? “Do not associate with unbelievers. For what basis can there be for a partnership between righteousness and lawlessness? What do light and darkness have in common? Can Christ ever be in accord with Beliar? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? Can there be an agreement between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God, and for this we have God’s word:“I will live in them and walk among them. I will be their God,and they shall be my people. Therefore, come out from their midst and separate yourselves from them, says the Lord. Do not touch anything unclean, and I will welcome you. I will be a father to you, and you shall be my sons and daughters,says the Lord Almighty.” (NCB)

If we want to become “sons and daughters” of “the Lord Almighty” we are told to “come out from their midst and separate” ourselves from what is to God, spiritually “unclean” practices connected to worship.

Has Christendom done this, or have they embraced these occasions and pretended that God somehow approves of them? The RCC played a large role in “Christianizing” the paganism, but actually they just “paganized” the Christianity.

Research the origins of two of the most popular events on the “Christian” calendar....Christmas and Easter.....and see for yourself where they came from. Neither have anything to do with Jesus, nor were they observed by the first Christians. They are nothing but empty commercial ‘holidays’ in the world...but still “holy days” to some....but they never were “holy” to God.
These two occasions earn more money for the churches than any others....they are not in any hurry to drop them, in spite of knowing their origins. Genuine Christians won’t touch them.

 

[walter]

Can both persons be right?

To me very important people to listen to are Jesus actual words or the Apostles actual words from long ago. Not something I could say!!

Some words in the Bible are easy to understand some are difficult to understand. I sure wish we could agree on something.

 

[Aunty Jane]

as far as I'm concerned, the early church or Chistians is before the year 300 or 400...maybe 400 is stretching it.

The early church was the one founded by Jesus and his apostles, not what “the church” became after the apostolic period, where the foretold apostasy with “weeds” “sown by the devil”, would corrupt the Christian Faith...and lead it away from God.

Like the Jewish faith, it started off well, with God giving his people laws to live by, and penalties for disobedience and failure to observe what God had given as instruction to his chosen nation.
By the time of Christ’s arrival, the Jews were so far off the rails, that God had his son expose them as frauds and hypocrites! He did not send Jesus to those religious leaders, but to the ones who were “lost” due to their neglect and self interest.

“You hypocrites! How rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you when he said: ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ” (Matt 15:7-9 NCB)

Teaching “Commandments of men as doctrines”....just like the CC did from the second century onward.
Same scenario..... the devil finds among men, those who will do his bidding and he feeds them lies instead of truth....the proverbial “wolves in sheep’s clothing”. Not something that sprang up in the 1800’s but way back in the early centuries when Christianity fell into the hands of corrupt men.
Those who follow their teachings are worshiping in vain....their hearts are no saying what their mouths are.

Jesus is due to return, any time now....and he will find exactly the same scenario. Satan has done it again.....
right under everyone’s nose.

I don't know what 2 Thes 2:6-12 states so I cannot reply to that.
You should POST scripture - but I find that many do not do this.

What is with Christians wo are too lazy to look up Scripture? There are online Bibles so that you can look the Scriptures up for yourself in whatever Bible you prefer......even ones who read it to you....

But since you insist....
2 Thess 2:1, 3-7; 9-12....
”As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we beg you, brethren . . .
Let no one deceive you in any way. That Day cannot come before the final rebellion occurs and the lawless one is revealed, the son of destruction. He is the adversary who sets himself in opposition to, and exalts himself above, every so-called god or object of worship, and who even seats himself in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God. Do you not remember that I told you these things when I was still with you? And you also know what is now restraining him, so that he may not be revealed before his time comes. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who restrains it will continue to do so until he is removed.”. . . . His coming will be the work of Satan made manifest in all power and signs and wonders of falsehood, and in every wicked deception designed for those who are perishing because they refused to accept the love of the truth and thereby gain salvation. For this reason, God imposes on them a powerful delusion. They believe what is false, so that all who have not believed the truth but instead have taken pleasure in wickedness will be condemned.” (NCB)

There you have it. The “powerful delusion” has been in existence for centuries....and because people take pleasure in wickedness because they believe what is false....condemnation follows.

You say the Apostles were acting as a restraint?
Looks like they didn't do such a good job.
John was worried about apostacy already being in the church.

They just needed to keep it at bay long enough for John to complete his writings that would be the concluding part of the Christian Scriptures. There is no Scripture after that, so anything that was said by those other than Christ and his apostles, after the first century, cannot be considered on a par with Scripture. No matter what the church claims.

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Gnostics had already infiltrated the church.
There were 12 Apostles...HOW do you think they kept heresy out of the church?
HOW did they protect the church?
They couldn't.

The Gnostics had their reasons for arguing with the teachings of the church.
They were not the only dissenters, but it was not time for the truth to be fully revealed....that would happen at the time of Christ’s return....and here we are.

The church was protected because, at some point, it was decided by the orthodox church as to what would be Christian and what would not BASED ON APOSTOLIC TEACHINGS.

This was done at Councils.
Yes Ma'am. Man-made councils.

“Man made councils” have no place in the Christian Faith......Scriptural truth is all laid out in God’s word, so if you need the words of men to dictate what you believe, that find no place in Scripture, then I feel sorry for you.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

For instance, the first council was at Nicea in 325AD.
The reason this council was called is because some were teaching that Jesus was not God.

I have no interest in your church councils...they mean nothing to me.
If there was even one clear unequivocal statement from either God or his Son to that effect, there could be not assertions that state otherwise.

Since the original and orthodox church, based on APOSTOLIC TEACHING, has always taught that Jesus is God....
it called this council to CONFIRM and DECLARE that Jesus is God.

If humans have to rely on other humans to formulate their doctrines, then Scripture becomes redundant.
Why bother even referring to the Bible at all, if what is taught is not found there?

Of course, having abandoned the church...the JWs do not believe this.
They DIVIDE the church of God.

The church divided itself because Christ was never in it....his words at Matt 7:21-23 were prophetic.....when he says to those who claim him as their “Lord”, and he says to them “I NEVER KNEW YOU”...”never” means “not ever”....so Christ has never set foot inside Christendom.....their divided state proves that God’s uniting spirit is missing. He does not give different people different truths....there can be only one. The body of Christ is not dismembered.

The ORTHODOX CHURCH protected Christianity....

The fox guarding the henhouse.....what protection was offered? Burning dissenters at the stake?
Where did Jesus ever tell anyone to kill those who disagree? The worst thing that could happen was excommunication.....it was Jesus’ enemies who like the idea of silencing those who made them look bad. (Matt 23:37-39)

THE CHURCH PREVENTED HERESY....
it did NOT cause it.

If you want to believe that.....it’s your choice, but you have to ignore so much of Christian history to believe that is true. The church itself promoted heresy and passed it off as Christian truth. Those who wanted to expose the truth were silenced....it still happens in a world ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19)

Why not just learn some history?

Some of us should.....the real history, not the sanitized one.

The HERESY was that Jesus is not God.
The church always taught that He IS God.
So the church protected what was always believed by THE CHURCH.

Not true...there is no trinity mentioned in the Bible.....Jesus was Jewish, and all Jews were monotheists. No Jew would ever accept that Jesus was God incarnate......they accused Jesus of blasphemy for simply calling himself “the son of God”. (John 10:31-36) Look it up...you might learn something.

Why did it take hundreds of years to make this doctrine official in the church...and through much controversy? If it was clearly stated no one could dispute it....many scholars have.

Emporer Constantine did NOT mandate Christianity.

Please post something that states that he did.
As usual, you have history all mixed up.

Read up about him and see that he used Christianity to consolidate his divided Empire. It was nothing more than a political ploy because he was not a Christian, though he pretended to support them because it won him the support of the church, whom he rewarded with power. So much for the Christians being “no part of the world”. (John 17:16; John 18:36)

Did Constantine Create the Catholic Church

He wasn’t baptized until the end of his life and continued to worship his false gods. He was a fake Christian.

And WHICH pagan beliefs do you believe Constantine ALLOWED to slip into Christianity?

Would you like a list of all the things the RCC accepts as “Christian” teachings that find no support in the Bible at all? It’s a long one.....

 

[GodsGrace]

The early church was the one founded by Jesus and his apostles, not what “the church” became after the apostolic period, where the foretold apostasy with “weeds” “sown by the devil”, would corrupt the Christian Faith...and lead it away from God.

Like the Jewish faith, it started off well, with God giving his people laws to live by, and penalties for disobedience and failure to observe what God had given as instruction to his chosen nation.
By the time of Christ’s arrival, the Jews were so far off the rails, that God had his son expose them as frauds and hypocrites! He did not send Jesus to those religious leaders, but to the ones who were “lost” due to their neglect and self interest.

“You hypocrites! How rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you when he said: ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ” (Matt 15:7-9 NCB)

Teaching “Commandments of men as doctrines”....just like the CC did from the second century onward.

Be serious.
LIST some commandments that the CC gave that had to be followed...
in the 100's and maybe the 200's

THAT DID NOT AGREE WITH SCRIPTURE.

If you are not willing to do this...
you should stop the ACCUSATIONS.

Same scenario..... the devil finds among men, those who will do his bidding and he feeds them lies instead of truth....the proverbial “wolves in sheep’s clothing”. Not something that sprang up in the 1800’s but way back in the early centuries when Christianity fell into the hands of corrupt men.
Those who follow their teachings are worshiping in vain....their hearts are no saying what their mouths are.

Jesus is due to return, any time now....and he will find exactly the same scenario. Satan has done it again.....
right under everyone’s nose.

Word salad.
As usual.

What is with Christians wo are too lazy to look up Scripture? There are online Bibles so that you can look the Scriptures up for yourself in whatever Bible you prefer......even ones who read it to you....

But since you insist....
2 Thess 2:1, 3-7; 9-12....
”As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we beg you, brethren . . .
Let no one deceive you in any way. That Day cannot come before the final rebellion occurs and the lawless one is revealed, the son of destruction. He is the adversary who sets himself in opposition to, and exalts himself above, every so-called god or object of worship, and who even seats himself in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God. Do you not remember that I told you these things when I was still with you? And you also know what is now restraining him, so that he may not be revealed before his time comes. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who restrains it will continue to do so until he is removed.”. . . . His coming will be the work of Satan made manifest in all power and signs and wonders of falsehood, and in every wicked deception designed for those who are perishing because they refused to accept the love of the truth and thereby gain salvation. For this reason, God imposes on them a powerful delusion. They believe what is false, so that all who have not believed the truth but instead have taken pleasure in wickedness will be condemned.” (NCB)

There you have it. The “powerful delusion” has been in existence for centuries....and because people take pleasure in wickedness because they believe what is false....condemnation follows.

1. It's common courtesy to post scripture.
2. It SHOULD be mandatory in the Theology Forum.
3. YOU are not the only member to whom we are posting....not all of us spend all day here.
4. If you want to discuss a specific scripture...it has to be posted and you have to explain WHY you are posting it.

They just needed to keep it at bay long enough for John to complete his writings that would be the concluding part of the Christian Scriptures. There is no Scripture after that, so anything that was said by those other than Christ and his apostles, after the first century, cannot be considered on a par with Scripture. No matter what the church claims.

What IS the powerful delusion?
YOU have to tell me Auntie Jane.
I don't have to read 3 PP to find out what YOU think it is.

The Gnostics had their reasons for arguing with the teachings of the church.
They were not the only dissenters, but it was not time for the truth to be fully revealed....that would happen at the time of Christ’s return....and here we are.

At least you understand that gnostics were dissenters.

Dissenters from WHAT Auntie Jane?
If a gnostic is NOT of the church....
and he is dissenting....

Is the gnostic right
or is the church right?

“Man made councils” have no place in the Christian Faith......Scriptural truth is all laid out in God’s word, so if you need the words of men to dictate what you believe, that find no place in Scripture, then I feel sorry for you.....

Let's see if you can understand since I've said this many times now and we can't seem to MOVE ON which is why I dislike posting to you.

A COUNCIL, especially in the early church (I'm not familiar with all of them) IS BASED ON SCRIPTURE.
IT IS NOT MAN MAKING UP DOCTRINE...
BUT IT IS DOCTRINE, TAUGHT IN SCRPTURE, BEING CLARIFIED.

I'm not screaming....
caps have always meant EMPHASIS in the world of professional typing...
I kind of like how things USED to be !

 

[GodsGrace]

I have no interest in your church councils...they mean nothing to me.
If there was even one clear unequivocal statement from either God or his Son to that effect, there could be not assertions that state otherwise.

If humans have to rely on other humans to formulate their doctrines, then Scripture becomes redundant.
Why bother even referring to the Bible at all, if what is taught is not found there?

The church divided itself because Christ was never in it....his words at Matt 7:21-23 were prophetic.....when he says to those who claim him as their “Lord”, and he says to them “I NEVER KNEW YOU”...”never” means “not ever”....so Christ has never set foot inside Christendom.....their divided state proves that God’s uniting spirit is missing. He does not give different people different truths....there can be only one. The body of Christ is not dismembered.

The fox guarding the henhouse.....what protection was offered? Burning dissenters at the stake?
Where did Jesus ever tell anyone to kill those who disagree? The worst thing that could happen was excommunication.....it was Jesus’ enemies who like the idea of silencing those who made them look bad. (Matt 23:37-39)

If you want to believe that.....it’s your choice, but you have to ignore so much of Christian history to believe that is true. The church itself promoted heresy and passed it off as Christian truth. Those who wanted to expose the truth were silenced....it still happens in a world ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19)

Some of us should.....the real history, not the sanitized one.

Not true...there is no trinity mentioned in the Bible.....Jesus was Jewish, and all Jews were monotheists. No Jew would ever accept that Jesus was God incarnate......they accused Jesus of blasphemy for simply calling himself “the son of God”. (John 10:31-36) Look it up...you might learn something.

Why did it take hundreds of years to make this doctrine official in the church...and through much controversy? If it was clearly stated no one could dispute it....many scholars have.

Read up about him and see that he used Christianity to consolidate his divided Empire. It was nothing more than a political ploy because he was not a Christian, though he pretended to support them because it won him the support of the church, whom he rewarded with power. So much for the Christians being “no part of the world”. (John 17:16; John 18:36)

Did Constantine Create the Catholic Church

He wasn’t baptized until the end of his life and continued to worship his false gods. He was a fake Christian.

Would you like a list of all the things the RCC accepts as “Christian” teachings that find no support in the Bible at all? It’s a long one.....

So ONCE AGAIN our conversation comes to a screeching halt with NOTHING having been accomplished.

YOU are unable to reply SERIOUSLY to any question or request posed to you.

I've asked you REPEATEDLY to list commandments YOU THINK were given by the early church, which would be the Catholic Church, which did NOT reflect scripture.

You refuse to do that so I have to ASSUME that you agree that the early church followed SCRIPTURE.

It's what YOU brought up,,,,
not ME.

NOW you're changing the time to try to make your point.
Which means that your original point is useless, moot, untrue.

If you reply to no. 552 and it's another word salad....
I will not be responding.
Had my salad for the day.

 

[Marymog]

Hmmm. You should have asked that way back when....
but, as far as I'm concerned, the early church or Chistians is before the year 300 or 400...maybe 400 is stretching it.

I don't know what 2 Thes 2:6-12 states so I cannot reply to that.
You should POST scripture - but I find that many do not do this.

You say the Apostles were acting as a restraint?
Looks like they didn't do such a good job.
John was worried about apostacy already being in the church.

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Gnostics had already infiltrated the church.
There were 12 Apostles...HOW do you think they kept heresy out of the church?
HOW did they protect the church?
They couldn't.

The church was protected because, at some point, it was decided by the orthodox church as to what would be Christian and what would not BASED ON APOSTOLIC TEACHINGS.

This was done at Councils.
Yes Ma'am. Man-made councils.

For instance, the first council was at Nicea in 325AD.
The reason this council was called is because some were teaching that Jesus was not God.

Since the original and orthodox church, based on APOSTOLIC TEACHING, has always taught that Jesus is God....
it called this council to CONFIRM and DECLARE that Jesus is God.

Of course, having abandoned the church...the JWs do not believe this.
They DIVIDE the church of God.

The ORTHODOX CHURCH protected Christianity....
Apostles really could not. (individually I mean).

You do have a problem understanding Auntie Jane.
THE CHURCH PREVENTED HERESY....
it did NOT cause it.

It's really tiring to have to repeat this.
Why not just learn some history?

Councils are, then, from their nature, a common effort of the Church, or part of the Church, for self-preservation and self-defence. They appear at her very origin, in the time of the Apostles at Jerusalem, and throughout her whole history whenever faith or morals or discipline are seriously threatened. Although their object is always the same, the circumstances under which they meet impart to them a great variety, which renders a classification necessary.

First Ecumenical Council: Nicaea I (325)​

The Council of Nicaea lasted two months and twelve days. Three hundred and eighteen bishops were present. Hosius, Bishop of Cordova, assisted as legate of Pope Sylvester. The Emperor Constantine was also present. To this council we owe The Creed (Symbolum) of Nicaea, defining against Arius the true Divinity of the Son of God (homoousios), and the fixing of the date for keeping Easter (against the Quartodecimans).

source: New Advent Encyclopedia

(or you could use any source)


The HERESY was that Jesus is not God.
The church always taught that He IS God.
So the church protected what was always believed by THE CHURCH.


Emporer Constantine did NOT mandate Christianity.

Please post something that states that he did.
As usual, you have history all mixed up.

And WHICH pagan beliefs do you believe Constantine ALLOWED to slip into Christianity?


Not addressing this again.
You clearly do not understand the illogical thinking YOU brought up a few posts ago.

Do you mean letters?
Some of the letters were referred to as scripture....
but the NT did not exist yet.


If you want to make this accusation...
you're going to have to post at least a couple of practices the church began that were not taught by the Apostles.
Frankly, I can't think of any.

This is such a crazy statement, I will not be replying to it.
You have your history ALL MIXED UP.


Yes Ma'am.
And as I've asked you before..
IS THIS WHAT JESUS WANTED?


John 17:20-21
20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21 that they may all be one;

The JWs got the dates for the return of Jesus wrong too. More than once.
Ever ask youself WHAT ELSE they got wrong?


I replied to this too but you never explained the conflict between two verses I posted.
This is because you do not reply to posts....
You just post a speech to say what YOU want to say.
You shoulda been a politician.

Whoa!
You're sounding a bit calvinistic.
Are you sure you have your theology right?

You're saying that God draws some people but not others?

This is not what Jesus taught, and you claim to be following Jesus:

John 12:32
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to Myself."

I'm happy for you Auntie Jane.
I won't be changing your mind...
I just wish you had correct information and stopped hating the church you grew up in so much.
The JWs did a good job on you.

You have been deceived by the men that you follow.

 

[walter]

You have been deceived by the men that you follow.

Isn't it true that everyone including myself have been deceived, if we don't listen to Jesus and the Apostles words and agreement?

 

[Aunty Jane]

So ONCE AGAIN our conversation comes to a screeching halt with NOTHING having been accomplished.

Well I guess that is because one of us is not listening.....or willing to actually read a response.

YOU are unable to reply SERIOUSLY to any question or request posed to you.

I have responded to your questions with a truth you find inconvenient. So you ignore what you consider “word salad”...a convenient excuse not to pay attention to what is said.

I've asked you REPEATEDLY to list commandments YOU THINK were given by the early church, which would be the Catholic Church, which did NOT reflect scripture.

You refuse to do that so I have to ASSUME that you agree that the early church followed SCRIPTURE.

The first Christians are what I consider to be “the early church”....what came after the death of the apostles is a whole other story....it was a slow decline into outright apostasy. To list the things that gradually crept into “church” doctrine would be to list all that Catholics believe. Read the catechism.....most Catholic people think it’s the Bible anyway.

If you reply to no. 552 and it's another word salad....
I will not be responding.
Had my salad for the day.

Bon Appétit.....
You don’t really respond anyway.....you are defensive but not responsive.

I am a student and teacher of God’s word, and have been for many years....so my research is thorough and my responses reflect that I use Scripture extensively in my posts as anyone can see.
I sometimes cite scripture for the sake of space (in the word salad), assuming that serious Christians will have quick and easy access to the Bible, because it is what God provided to give us all the instruction we need.

I won’t waste any more of your time....

 

[GodsGrace]

You have been deceived by the men that you follow.

Which men?

 

[GodsGrace]

Well I guess that is because one of us is not listening.....or willing to actually read a response.

I have responded to your questions with a truth you find inconvenient. So you ignore what you consider “word salad”...a convenient excuse not to pay attention to what is said.

The first Christians are what I consider to be “the early church”....what came after the death of the apostles is a whole other story....it was a slow decline into outright apostasy. To list the things that gradually crept into “church” doctrine would be to list all that Catholics believe. Read the catechism.....most Catholic people think it’s the Bible anyway.

Bon Appétit.....
You don’t really respond anyway.....you are defensive but not responsive.

I am a student and teacher of God’s word, and have been for many years....so my research is thorough and my responses reflect that I use Scripture extensively in my posts as anyone can see.
I sometimes cite scripture for the sake of space (in the word salad), assuming that serious Christians will have quick and easy access to the Bible, because it is what God provided to give us all the instruction we need.

I won’t waste any more of your time....

You waste everyone's time but you're doing really good for the JWs and those that post to you give you the opportunity for your speeches.

Now,,,I said that I would reply to you IF you answered my questions...
directly and to the point.

You have FAILED to do this for the reasons I've stated.....
your disinterest in real discussion and your love for speeches which are basically
word salads,,,,repeating over and over again.

And I don't care WHY you don't post scripture...
scripture must be posted in the THEOLOGY section exactly
because it's used to support a claim one may make.
The reason you just CITE scripture is because your posts are extremely long instead of replying to questions.

So, once again, no reply.
But dumb talk instead....
of which I accept some responsibility.

 

[Marymog]

Isn't it true that everyone including myself have been deceived, if we don't listen to Jesus and the Apostles words and agreement?

Walter,

I apologize! I don't understand what you are saying. Could you clarify. It's the "agreement" word in your sentence that is throwing me off.

 

[Marymog]

The first Christians are what I consider to be “the early church”....what came after the death of the apostles is a whole other story....it was a slow decline into outright apostasy. To list the things that gradually crept into “church” doctrine would be to list all that Catholics believe. Read the catechism.....most Catholic people think it’s the Bible anyway.

Hey Jane!

We have writings from the men of the early church. Which men of the early church that you have read do you agree with? Also, the early church held the doctrine of the Real Presence in the Eucharist as the Catholic Church still does today. Is that one of the doctrines that "crept" into The Church?

Curious Mary

PS.....No, most Catholics don't think the catechism is the bible