No-one has gone to heaven?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,672
7,924
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Lets keep it simple! Parables are built on fictitious stories with symbolism.

The symbolism of a great gulf is nothing more than the reality of those who have the Holy Spirit of God, and those who do not have the Holy Spirit of God. For those who don't,
they are none of His!! Luke 11:13 Romans 8:8-9
Matthew 13:24-43
Just suggesting God is the healer of the breach. That’s all. (Imo) it isn’t laughable either what they were doing. The rich man is asking for water to do what only Living water can do for those in torment. Lazarus is in the bosom of Abraham. Odd the rich man asks for Lazarus specifically to be sent. John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
https://tbibl.es/108p
Abraham's Bosom Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary
 
  • Like
Reactions: r1xlx and Renniks

Harvest 1874

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2018
1,100
573
113
62
Tampa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why are you so insistent about it not having another meaning?
Could it be because, Jesus teaches here that heaven and hell are both real, literal places and your whole doctrine rests on that not being true?
When believers die, they are immediately in the conscious fellowship and joys of heaven.
When unbelievers die, they are immediately in the conscious pain, suffering, and torment of hell.
There's much more to learn here like:
Riches won't save you.
Life here is short, and what we gain here can't be carried over, except for our faith.
It's better to be poor and depend on God then to have much and lose your soul.

This is the nominal churches view, and even among many nominal Christians its hard to swallow. Most nominal ministers don't believe it and that is why it is not taught much anymore save by the few "fire and brimstone" teachers still out there, most of these found on the internet as most churches won't have them as they find their teachings to be out of harmony with the God of Love.

And so those who are awakening from these teachings of the dark ages, "the doctrines of men and of devils" are found vomiting them up.

Even as it is written:

"But they ("The drunkards of Ephraim", the nominal ministers of Babylon) also have erred through wine (false doctrines), And through intoxicating drink are out of the way; The priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink, They are swallowed up by wine, They are out of the way through intoxicating drink; They err in vision (in insight into the word of God, the truth being hidden from them), they stumble in judgment. For all tables (supplies of spiritual food) are full of vomit and filth (doctrinal monstrosities and misrepresentations of the truth and the character of God); No place is clean." (Isa 28:7, 8)

"Depart! Depart! Go out from there, Touch no unclean thing (have nothing to do with their false and God dishonoring doctrines); Go out from the midst of her, Be clean, You who bear the vessels (the truths) of the Lord." (Isa 52:11)
 

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,532
1,543
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I say laughable, because it's impossible for anyone to have any kind of life or existence after death.
However, it be that the rich man be in a hell of your imagination, how can he be conscious after death?

Since the rich man has been dead for quite along time now (2000+ years), is God now still with him in your version of hell, keeping him alive?

And if God be there also, is God suffering the torment that you surmize for the wicked also? Remember, according to your beliefs, no one has eternal existence of any kind, unless it is sustained by God Himself.
 
  • Like
Reactions: r1xlx

Renniks

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2020
4,308
1,392
113
56
Pennsylvania
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Depart! Depart! Go out from there, Touch no unclean thing (have nothing to do with their false and God dishonoring doctrines); Go out from the midst of her, Be clean, You who bear the vessels (the truths) of the Lord." (Isa 52:11)
One of those false doctrines is universalism.
Are you a universalist?
 

Truth

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2017
1,737
1,797
113
71
AZ, Quartzsite
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Far too many Christians and other faiths believe that the dead go to heaven.
This is regardless of how awful the person was.
Ministers and preachers of all denominations promote and maintain this nonsensical idea even when burying or burning the most evil criminals.
The Bible quite clearly says all the dead go into their graves so what do you think and why do you think you go to heaven when you die?

Has Jesus gone to Heaven? and who are the 24 Elders John Describes in the book of the Revaluation? He calls them Elders, Rev-5:11-Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many Angels around the Throne, and the Living Creatures, and the Elders?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Renniks

Renniks

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2020
4,308
1,392
113
56
Pennsylvania
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I say laughable, because it's impossible for anyone to have any kind of life or existence after death.
However, it be that the rich man be in a hell of your imagination, how can he be conscious after death?

Since the rich man has been dead for quite along time now (2000+ years), is God now still with him in your version of hell, keeping him alive?

And if God be there also, is God suffering the torment that you surmize for the wicked also? Remember, according to your beliefs, no one has eternal existence of any kind, unless it is sustained by God Himself.
God created us all with souls that live forever. I don't know that God has to be present to sustain them, but why does this matter?
God is omnipresent, but that doesn't mean his goodness has to inhabit every realm. He can do as he wishes.
If no one has any eternal existence of any kind, then you better live your best life now, because it's all you get. And the atheist would be right about the pointlessness of life.
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,672
7,924
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I say laughable, because it's impossible for anyone to have any kind of life or existence after death.
However, it be that the rich man be in a hell of your imagination, how can he be conscious after death?

Since the rich man has been dead for quite along time now (2000+ years), is God now still with him in your version of hell, keeping him alive?

And if God be there also, is God suffering the torment that you surmize for the wicked also? Remember, according to your beliefs, no one has eternal existence of any kind, unless it is sustained by God Himself.

timing seems to be the issue. Jesus Christ presented the parable of the rich man being in an unending torment and pleading for Lazarus to be sent. What you said is most valuable of the parable is the “they won’t believe even if one is raised from the dead.” Have you ever consider the rich man was given what he asked for in spite of the “even though”...as the one presenting the parable to them did so before He is raised from the dead. (Imo) pushing the unbearable torment off into the far reaches of the future where one has asked for water to cool the fire of his tongue has forgotten Jude 1:22-23 And of some have compassion, making a difference: [23] And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

How is “pulling them out of the fire” possible?
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
 

r1xlx

Active Member
Feb 26, 2020
198
36
28
76
HESSLE
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Their thoughts perish. The Bible says no-one goes to either heaven or hell when they die no matter what popey and most 'Christian' preachers say.
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,672
7,924
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Their thoughts perish.

Yet His thoughts and His ways do not perish. Then “I am the way” for all those gone out of the way and have become unprofitable. forsake your own ways and your own thoughts which are from beneath and follow after “My ways and My thoughts” which are from above. Line it up with His word. Even the disciples cried “do you not care that we perish.”
 

Renniks

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2020
4,308
1,392
113
56
Pennsylvania
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Their thoughts perish. The Bible says no-one goes to either heaven or hell when they die no matter what popey and most 'Christian' preachers say.
Where? The Bible says this where?
The only proof text you have is very ambiguous. If Jesus meant to say no one has ever ascended to heaven, instead of saying no one else has ever come down from heaven, he must have forgotten about Enoch and Elijah.
 

r1xlx

Active Member
Feb 26, 2020
198
36
28
76
HESSLE
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Renniks you call Jesus a liar!
He said no-one has ascended except himself. Enoch and Elijah were taken so as not to see death but we don't know what that means. Maybe suspended animation, maybe kept and nourished someplace, we just don't know.
 

r1xlx

Active Member
Feb 26, 2020
198
36
28
76
HESSLE
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Yet His thoughts and His ways do not perish. Then “I am the way” for all those gone out of the way and have become unprofitable. forsake your own ways and your own thoughts which are from beneath and follow after “My ways and My thoughts” which are from above. Line it up with His word. Even the disciples cried “do you not care that we perish.”
So you're saying that Jesus is a liar and heaven is full of people like you liars?
 

Dcopymope

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2016
2,650
800
113
36
Motor City
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Far too many Christians and other faiths believe that the dead go to heaven.
This is regardless of how awful the person was.
Ministers and preachers of all denominations promote and maintain this nonsensical idea even when burying or burning the most evil criminals.
The Bible quite clearly says all the dead go into their graves so what do you think and why do you think you go to heaven when you die?

No one goes to heaven unless God wants you there. He is in control, its not something that happens by default of you dying. But If I am to entertain the very idea of anyone going to heaven, the thing is, why would you care when God brings new Jerusalem to us on the earth to come? I can assure you no one will care who does and does not go to heaven at that point, because the tabernacle of God himself will be with us.

(Revelation 21:1-3) "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. {2} And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. {3} And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."
 

Renniks

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2020
4,308
1,392
113
56
Pennsylvania
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Renniks you call Jesus a liar!
He said no-one has ascended except himself. Enoch and Elijah were taken so as not to see death but we don't know what that means. Maybe suspended animation, maybe kept and nourished someplace, we just don't know.
Lol, that's rich, coming from someone who denies Jesus teaching on what happened to the rich man and Lazarus as soon as they died.
 

r1xlx

Active Member
Feb 26, 2020
198
36
28
76
HESSLE
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
No one goes to heaven unless God wants you there. He is in control, its not something that happens by default of you dying. But If I am to entertain the very idea of anyone going to heaven, the thing is, why would you care when God brings new Jerusalem to us on the earth to come? I can assure you no one will care who does and does not go to heaven at that point, because the tabernacle of God himself will be with us.
so you are still calling Jesus a liar and believe your thought will not perish if you died right now?
GET A BIBLE ANDS START READING IT WITH EYES OPEN!
 

Dcopymope

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2016
2,650
800
113
36
Motor City
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
so you are still calling Jesus a liar and believe your thought will not perish if you died right now?
GET A BIBLE ANDS START READING IT WITH EYES OPEN!

:rolleyes:.......Take a chill pill, relax [removed] and actually comprehend what I wrote. I never said anything not perishing, only that God decides who goes to heaven just like he will ultimately decide who gets tossed into the lake of fire.