Not by works - but by faith

[FollowHim]

Hyper legalism - man's traditions
To some the speed limit on the road is sin to break. But it is there for safety and you are fined etc if caught.

Everyone breaks the limit, but within 10% is ok. But for hyper legalists you are hell bound. And so it is with all encouragements. Doing good if known and failed, that is sin. If something is not allowed by faith, sin. OCD people become so condemned they see no love only failure.

Now these guys lie, from the beginning, will say there is only one way to see scripture, will claim the other is insulting, rude, deceived etc and refuse fellowship or praise of God, the Holy Spirit. They will literally put words into ones mouth. And what they do not see is there brother has the same theology, except on one point.

The hatred, the anger, you can feel. Whatever drives them, it is not God's love and grace. Given a gun, they would shoot. That is wolves in sheep's clothing, and when honest, they want to destroy fellow believers. That should worry them to the core, except they go to their graves thinking themselves saved while hating from the heart.

These hyper legalists are failed legalists, who went from pretending to care about righteousness, to hating polite society, not knowing one lack of salvation is the same as another.

Without love in one's heart, forgiving all, one has not even begun. I am religious, it means desiring God these folk are beyond this, because they do know or love sinners, just they are the enemy.

 

[FollowHim]

Man's hatred

When we are angry, an eye for an eye is not enough. It is anything that gets revenge, no matter how far.

So some one is rude, hit them, strangle them, make them feel pain. It is odd we all do this. The teacher who sets homework, is the face on the dart board. But this is just resentment.
So for some small issue, hell fire, roasted for all eternity. Even babies or young children. They deserve it, it is just.

Just? I would be sent to prison for hitting a child continuously for being who they are. Yet this is God, the Lord of love, the person who opened their arms to kids.

But make no mistake, without love in the heart there is no resolution. People are just learnt responses, nothing tied together. When light comes, everything resolves. If one is built on the foundation, one stands, complete.
This place is light, the true self, exposed. Wrecks are destroyed.

 

[Faither]

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Eph 2:8-10

Our encounter is with Jesus and anointed with the Holy Spirit through repentance and faith in the Cross.

It is our changed heart, our cleansed experience, our reformed and transformed lives that we demonstrate the eternal work Christ has worked in us.

It is impossible to claim the presence of the God in ones heart and not show fruit or life.
Abiding in Christ will always produce fruit, while not abiding in Him and His word, will destroy and kill whatever life that appears.

When it says, " not by works ", is it talking about works of the law? Or is there no work involved in following Christ?

 

[Faither]

Even " believing" is a concious decision that takes courage and effort, right? Isn't that work?

 

[Windmillcharge]

Study the parables of Christ for practical applications.

It is a poorly taught preacher who has to be asked the relevance and practical application of his message.

 

[mailmandan]

When it says, "not by works", is it talking about works of the law? Or is there no work involved in following Christ?

Are you saying "not of works" in Ephesians 2:9 equates to we are saved by "these" works (works involved in following Christ after we have been saved through faith) and just not "those" works (works of the law)?

 

[mailmandan]

Even "believing" is a concious decision that takes courage and effort, right? Isn't that work?

Believing takes humility in recognizing the wages of sin is death (we deserve death because of our sins and cannot save ourselves) but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Believing is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Through believing, we are trusting in "Another's work" (Christ's finished work of redemption - Romans 3:24-28)

 

[Faither]

Believing takes humility in recognizing the wages of sin is death (we deserve death because of our sins and cannot save ourselves) but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Believing is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Through believing, we are trusting in "Another's work" (Christ's finished work of redemption - Romans 3:24-28)

How do you understand the salvation process?

 

[mailmandan]

How do you understand the salvation process?

Justification is not a process, yet there are 3 tenses to salvation that can get mixed up. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

 

[Faither]

Justification is not a process, yet there are 3 tenses to salvation that can get mixed up. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Do you agree that when we are called by the Father to Christ, we do not have the Spirit of Christ yet? The very beginning?

 

[mailmandan]

Do you agree that when we are called by the Father to Christ, we do not have the Spirit of Christ yet? The very beginning?

Before I answer any further questions, I'm still waiting for you to answer my question from post #126.

 

[Faither]

Before I answer any further questions, I'm still waiting for you to answer my question from post #126.

Ya , I didn't follow the question on 126. Could you rephrase?

 

[mailmandan]

Ya , I didn't follow the question on 126. Could you rephrase?

Do you interpret "not of works" in Ephesians 2:9 to mean we are merely not saved by "works of the law" and not works in general? Do you believe that man is saved by faith + certain other works?

 

[Faither]

Do you interpret "not of works" in Ephesians 2:9 to mean we are merely not saved by "works of the law" and not works in general? Do you believe that man is saved by faith + certain other works?

Ok, got it.

I understand " the works " in Ephesians 2:9 to be works of the law, or an attempt to fulfill the law with an additional perfect life,done by one's own will. But that doesn't mean that "Faith"as it relates to the living God doesn't include work and effort, courage and endurance.

 

[mailmandan]

Ok, got it.

I understand " the works " in Ephesians 2:9 to be works of the law, or an attempt to fulfill the law with an additional perfect life,done by one's own will. But that doesn't mean that "Faith"as it relates to the living God doesn't include work and effort, courage and endurance.

So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you did "enough" works, so now the Lord will be able to save you? How much work, effort, courage and endurance does it take?

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. So which good works could a Christian accomplish that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).

Either we perfectly keep the law, which includes the moral aspect of the law, and we are saved by works or else we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and receive the imputed righteousness of God which is by faith (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9). There is no middle ground. It's not Christ did most of it but we did some of it. The good works of a believer are not added as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us. We are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24).

Besides Ephesians 2:9, elsewhere, Paul said it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us... (Titus 3:5) and He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. (2 Timothy 1:9) Do you believe that "works" here is also limited to a specific list of works of the law or do you believe that covers works in general? I believe the latter.

 

[marksman]

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Eph 2:8-10

Our encounter is with Jesus and anointed with the Holy Spirit through repentance and faith in the Cross.

It is our changed heart, our cleansed experience, our reformed and transformed lives that we demonstrate the eternal work Christ has worked in us.

It is impossible to claim the presence of the God in ones heart and not show fruit or life.
Abiding in Christ will always produce fruit, while not abiding in Him and His word, will destroy and kill whatever life that appears.

And the point of your post is....

 

[Faither]

So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you did "enough" works, so now the Lord will be able to save you? In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. So which good works could a Christian accomplish that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).

Either we perfectly keep the law, which includes the moral aspect of the law, and we are saved by works or else we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and receive the imputed righteousness of God which is by faith (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9). There is no middle ground. It's not Christ did most of it but we did some of it. The good works of a believer are not added as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us. We are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24).

Besides Ephesians 2:9, elsewhere, Paul said it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us... (Titus 3:5) and He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. (2 Timothy 1:9) Do you believe that "works" here is also limited to a specific list of works of the law or do you believe that covers works in general? I believe the latter.

Well since I answered your question, could you answer the one I asked?

At the very beginning, when we are called by the Father to Christ, do we have the Spirit of Christ yet?

 

[Episkopos]

How do you understand the salvation process?

Amen! It is quite unusual these days to find people who actually understand the way in Christ as opposed to the popular "other" gospel of self-justification.

Where do we draw the line for how much is enough on our part to please God? Well WE don't draw the line...God does. It is the very opponents of truth that seek to draw their own lines. These cannot leave things in God's hands.

It is God who judges...not we who decide. We don't accept Christ....we need to be accepted into the beloved.

So then many have an exactly backwards understanding of the salvation process.

We are BEING saved....but sanctification is instant by entering into Christ. Putting on the new Man. There is no sanctification process. sanctification is a gift...but a final salvation is conditional. (although we may experience many salvations along the way) There is a maturing process in sanctification.....towards a final salvation. So the WE are to become mature through trials and patience in those. But the purity of God in holiness is never ours. It is HIS life that makes us holy. Holiness is a gift. He GIVES grace to the humble. And grace is the power that brings holiness.

 

[Faither]

So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you did "enough" works, so now the Lord will be able to save you? How much work, effort, courage and endurance does it take?

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. So which good works could a Christian accomplish that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).

Either we perfectly keep the law, which includes the moral aspect of the law, and we are saved by works or else we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and receive the imputed righteousness of God which is by faith (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9). There is no middle ground. It's not Christ did most of it but we did some of it. The good works of a believer are not added as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us. We are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24).

Besides Ephesians 2:9, elsewhere, Paul said it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us... (Titus 3:5) and He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. (2 Timothy 1:9) Do you believe that "works" here is also limited to a specific list of works of the law or do you believe that covers works in general? I believe the latter.

Answering this question.

If I were fulfilling any work, and asking myself if it were good enough, that would fall under a work of self will. And self will perfecting would be trying to fulfill the law and as such would be trying to replace or better the finished work of Christ, or Grace. I don't practice this!

 

[Faither]

Amen! It is quite unusual these days to find people who actually understand the way in Christ as opposed to the popular "other" gospel of self-justification.

Where do we draw the line for how much is enough on our part to please God? Well WE don't draw the line...God does. It is the very opponents of truth that seek to draw their own lines. These cannot leave things in God's hands.

It is God who judges...not we who decide. We don't accept Christ....we need to be accepted into the beloved.

So then many have an exactly backwards understanding of the salvation process.

We are BEING saved....but sanctification is instant by entering into Christ. Putting on the new Man. There is no sanctification process. sanctification is a gift...but a final salvation is conditional. (although we may experience many salvations along the way) There is a maturing process in sanctification.....towards a final salvation. So the WE are to become mature through trials and patience in those. But the purity of God in holiness is never ours. It is HIS life that makes us holy. Holiness is a gift. He GIVES grace to the humble. And grace is the power that brings holiness.

Lots of good stuff here!

I understand God accepts us, we do not accept Him.

I understand the entire world," the field" has been bought by the work of Christ, the sacrifice of the perfect life of Christ. So the sins of the entire world are covered, past present, and future. But, that Grace doesn't benefit us unless we respond to the call of the Father " by Faith." And the application of how we receive Grace by Faith is the big problem!

How do you understand we receive Christ and His Grace by Faith?