Nothing much left to say
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Lead by example. Don't use words critical of . Show us how to better reflect God's glory. Thanks!
Lapidem
Active Member
You are inventing things to fit your own false narrative. The serpent never told Adam and Eve they would be immortal. The serpent said:
“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.(E) 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God,(F) knowing good and evil.”
The serpent told the TRUTH. Confirmed a few passages later thus:
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
So irrefutably the serpent old the truth. God very clearly LIED because he said:
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
Both Adam and Eve DID eat from the tree and they DID NOT die at all. They continued to live. God therefore blatantly LIED.
God clothed them, had a tantrum, threw them out of the Garden Of Eden where they went on to live their lives, have children and that was that.
Again no this is false. Here's the proof again:
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
The serpent said they would gain knowledge and above God confirms that they did indeed gain knowledge. I'm struggling to understand how you're interpreting this any different. It's black and white.
This is just waffle and the result of indoctrination.
The serpent told the TRUTH. Irrefutably.
God told the LIE. Irrefutably.
Look back at this whole allegorical story and read it properly.
What you have is a most ludicrous story that does not remotely gel with the false Christian dogma and concept of an all-powerful God.
From the top:
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
WTA* !!
This God supposedly just created an entire world in a few days and yet somehow needs a man to look after a garden? !!!!!
Really? Do God's super powers not cover basic gardening? Looking after trees and flowers etc?
How utterly ridiculous is this whole proposition?!
18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
What !!!!!
So one man isn't enough!! Now God needs a second person to tend the garden, a helper! !! It gets more ridiculous.
Anyone with even 2 brain cells can plainly see that this tale cannot possibly be literal.
In which case it MUST BE allegorical, which of course it is.
This entire story, and much of Genesis is an allegorical description of alchemy and the processes it uses. The male and female principles of all things, the process of separation, the ultimate goal of producing the "tree of life" which is one of 100s of names for the Elixir of Life that bestows immortality.
Open your eyes and see the truth that this story of Adam and Eve can not possibly be literal. Once you reach that step, then go read the works of the sages and philosophers regarding alchemy and the "Great Work" and learn the cryptic language they use and you'll see the same terminology used throughout Genesis and elsewhere in the bible. Then you will have the "eyes to see" that Jesus spoke of.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Worse.
Daniel said...
KJV Daniel 12:1
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
I'm curious. If I understand you correctly, I may have some sympathy with your statement regarding belief being, shall we say, inadequate. What we need is much more than just belief. With what is coming upon the earth, a time never before experienced by human flesh, what we need is a relationship. Relationships go way beyond belief. It means if we truly know Him in whom we believe, then belief becomes an abiding complete surrender and trust. Such as exists in some marriages between couples who have been together into their 80s and 90s, married 60 years or more, knowing each other so intimately they have long removed all doubt, all fear, and their love and trust is complete. That's how we need to know Jesus.
KJV 2 Peter 1:16-21
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Adam and Eve knew God. They walked with Him and talked with Him in the garden. But they didn't yet understand Who He really was, nor what He was really like. If they had known, they would never have considered another's voice. As Jesus said, His true disciples will not know a strangers voice, and will not follow him. But in the soon to be realized time of trouble, such as there never was, God's people will be subject to every temptation and deception, and will now, while it is day, need to truly get to know their God. Through study of His word, and prayer.
Lapidem
Active Member
More layers of psychological scaremongering. It really is a form of abuse.
Adam and Eve are allegorical, for goodness sake !
Just out of interest how do you think Cain and Able managed to have children?
and if Adam's desire to learn more knowledge and eat from the tree was to have some catastrophic impact on every human that would be born from that point on, then why didn't God just end things right there and then instead of letting billions of humans be born over 1000s of years? See how this whole story is childishly farcical? It's not real. It's allegorical. You're not seeing the true message.
Adam and Eve are allegorical, for goodness sake !
Just out of interest how do you think Cain and Able managed to have children?
and if Adam's desire to learn more knowledge and eat from the tree was to have some catastrophic impact on every human that would be born from that point on, then why didn't God just end things right there and then instead of letting billions of humans be born over 1000s of years? See how this whole story is childishly farcical? It's not real. It's allegorical. You're not seeing the true message.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I wrote about God lying 2 years ago and got banned for it. The story of God lying to 400 prophets is even more compelling in 1 Kings 22:19-22.
Regarding what God said in the garden about dying; I came across an analysis of the original language which conveys the idea of beginning to die on that day and some translations make this distinction.
You are not to eat from it, because on the day that you eat from it, it will become certain that you will die.”
GE 2:17 CJB
So, I disagree that it is irrefutable that God lied there but the evidence in 1 Kings 22:19-22 is explicit; God commanded lying.
Hmmm. You got this one totally wrong. It's not what God needs but what his creation needs. Man was not created to sit around and complain that there is not enough evidence that God exists. Man was created to do meaningful work. Again consider 1 Kings 22:19-22.
19 Then Micaiah continued, “Listen to what the Lord says! I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the armies of heaven around him, on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who can entice Ahab to go into battle against Ramoth-gilead so he can be killed?’ NLT
Although the quantity is unknown, there is clearly a council in heaven. This is explicitly stated in Ps 82. Our lord relied on v6 to justify his claim of being the son of God. So, this verse and the existence of a heavenly council where God seeks advice is near and dear to my heart, especially because it goes against a Christendom myth that God does not do these things.
When you abandon your foolish Atheism, you will yearn to be used by God to do his bidding. It was an honor for Adam to care for God's garden and it was an honor the the Spirit in 1 Kings 22:19-22 to entice Ahab to go into battle against Ramoth-gilead. I too have been so honored and yearn to continue to be in his service.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
There you go again! Putting yourself in the position to judge your own Creator will not help you on Judgement Day.
Why can’t you appreciate and honor the sovereign will of your Creator to be in awe of his unfolding story?
The short answer to your question is that God has plans for us to live - even though we deserve death. Jer 29:11.
The death that is meant here is the second death. Man was denied eternal life. He began dying earthly wise, and lived a certain number of years on this earth, and then that was it. It was Jesus, who died for us, to allow us to have eternal life. John 3:16.
Lapidem
Active Member
Ah there we go. The Church unfortunately has a terrible habit of reinventing text, rewording text or coming up with fabulous interpretations to try and gloss over or patch up the areas that don't follow the established dogma and it's concept of god.
With the best will in the world, clinging desperately to just ONE version of the bible that for a given passage helps you dodge an embarrassing truth is pretty disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. Are we then to discard every other version of the bible than the Common Jewish Bible? Presumably BILLIONS of Christians who read and believe other versions of the bible are wrong then? Misguided?
You see how this just doesn't hang together.
Genesis 2:17 in pretty much EVERY OTHER bible version
NIV - "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”"
KJ21 - "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it. For in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.”
ASV - "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
CEB - "but don’t eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because on the day you eat from it, you will die!”"
ESV - "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat[a] of it you shall surely die.”
GNB - "except the tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad.[a] You must not eat the fruit of that tree; if you do, you will die the same day."
ISV - "but you are not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because you will certainly die during the day that you eat from it."
JUB - "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou dost eat of it thou shalt surely die."
KJV - "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"
AKJV - "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
NCB - "but you must never eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you were to eat from it, you would surely die.”
OJB - "But of the Etz HaDa’as Tov v’Rah, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the yom that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
It's worth also pointing out another assumption being made which is that you're suggesting that Adam and Eve were immortal before they ate from the tree, for otherwise how could they "begin to die" after eating from the tree? If they were mortal then they were always on the process of dying like any human.
If you could furnish us with scripture that confirms this immortality assumption that would be useful, otherwise it's just one more made up fantasy of this already questionable dogma.
There are some clues though . .
Genesis 3:22
“See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Now, to prevent his putting out his hand and taking also from the tree of life, eating, and living forever — ” 23 therefore Adonai, God, sent him out of the garden of ‘Eden to cultivate the ground from which he was taken."
So, it's pretty black and white clear there, Adam and Eve were NOT immortal and they would have had to eat from the "tree of life" in order to live forever.
There are some other important things that follow from this verse.
First the "Tree Of Life" as I have explained elsewhere is an allegorical term for the Philosopher's Stone or Elixir Of Life. It has 100s of names and is referred to in just about every religion and every major form of mythology from Greek to Norse.
Second, note that God says Adam would have to EAT from that tree to gain immortality. Not believe in the tree, not have faith in the tree, he MUST eat from the tree to be immortal. This is the crucial point that BILLIONS of Christians are unaware of because the Church is concealing from them or ignorant of, the existence of the Elixir Of Life or Philosopher's Stone. If you study alchemy and read the 1000s of works available that describe this "tree of life" then you learn that it has two forms. A "White Stone" and a "Red Stone" which confer different properties and benefits, the white healing, the red immortality. And again please dispense with childish remarks about rocks for the Stone is not a rock, it is a substance that can be powder or liquid or waxy.
Let us now consider the stark warning words of Jesus himself, which I will take from your CJB
John 6:52-53
52 At this, the Judeans disputed with one another, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 Then Yeshua said to them, “Yes, indeed! I tell you that unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life in yourselves. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life — that is, I will raise him up on the Last Day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Here again the words of Genesis are reeiterated. You have to EAT something and DRINK something to gain real life, immortality.
You have EAT The "Tree Of Life". If you don't then there is no life in you. Clearly Jesus doesn't condone canibalism. He's not suggesting we eat his actual flesh and drink his actual blood. He's referring to the White and Red Stones. White = flesh, Red = blood.
The final thing we should note from the non-literal, allegorical tale of Adam and Eve is that it paints a picture of a god that wants slaves. He created man as a slave to tend the garden, even though he had no such need of any slave if he is the all-powerful entity the Church paints him as. It is natural for humans to seek to better themselves, to learn and acquire knowledge. That's all Adam and Eve did in the non-literal story. God punished them for seeking to better themselves. He wanted to be the "top dog" with all the knowledge and power and thus forbade Adam and Eve from having that same knowledge. He suppressed their development, learning and desire to acquire knowledge. In today's modern world we would call that wicked. The act of a dictator. Like Hitler burning books so we can't learn.
The literal reading of this tale clearly makes no sense whatsoever, it paints god as a tyrant, a suppressor of human development and an entity that is prone to all manner of not very nice traits, setting Adam up for the fall, creating the serpent, punishing Adam for acquiring knowledge not with just a rebuke but by stripping him of the possibility of immortal life, denying him the real fuel that his body needed.
Clearly then this tale is not literal at all. It is purely allegorical, in which respect we should start to seek the true allegorical meaning, which as I have laboured to iterate, is alchemy, the "Great Work", the Elixir Of Life, the White and Red Stones and the processes for creating it.
Revelation 2:17 CJB
"17 Those who have ears, let them hear what the Spirit is saying to the Messianic communities. To him winning the victory I will give some of the hidden man. I will also give him a white stone, on which is written a new name that nobody knows except the one receiving it.”’"
This will be my final gift to you in regards to all this. I have cast many pearls. I will waste no more effort if you choose to ignore or deride these truths.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
To be kind. You are gifted with the eyes to see our short comings. Show us by example how better to reflect God’s glory.
What’s not to understand?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Yes. It really is that simple.
Here is a hint. If you assume the Bible is right - even though your own understanding does not grasp it - you’ll get a lot more out of life than hatefully trying to figure out how it could be wrong.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No. Living is not dying.
The explicit proof they were not immortal was the 2nd tree, the Tree of Life.
Lapidem
Active Member
Simply false
Living is the beginning of the process of dying for humans if they don't have the Stone.
YOU began dying the moment you came out of the womb and you have been on the process of dying ever since.
Adam and Eve were likewise human, and mortal and therefore dying. They were not immortal.
Therefore your quote from the CJB is just a bad translation for Adam could not suddenly "begin to die" at the point of eating from the tree. He must have already begun to die from the moment he was created.
Great. So you agree they were not immortal. Therefore they were mortal, therefore they were already dying.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
You're asking questions Lapidem yet it appears you are not open to answers because you have already decided what the case is.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Totally wrong. Living is a sustaining process! Dying is not.
Your God complex extends to making definitions.
QuantumBit
Active Member
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