Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

[LC627]

That's not what I said at all.
I said that the Holy Spirit guides the CHURCH tpo all truth - NOT the individual.

If that were the case - why are there tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering factions who ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim to have been led by the Holy Spirit to "All truth"??

Is God the God of confusion?
Does He lead different Protestant men to different - and sometimes opposing doctrines?

As a Protestant - you have to ask yourself why there are so many different and opposing teachings if they are ALL being "led" by the Holy Spirit.

That's basically what you said, That the Holy Spirit does not lead individual people, it is only for the church leaders. As a Catholic - you have to ask yourself why there are so many unbiblical doctrines you follow if your church leaders are "led" by the Holy Spirit.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Those who were PREDESTINED are already KNOWN to God. The names were recorded before time even began. If they were going to be "lost" then why did God have their recorded in the first place?

Because it was ALWAYS our choice.

God ONLY knows because he is outside of time. He sees everything in the eternal "Now". There is no past or future to Him. Just because He knows what we chose - does NOT mean that WE didn't choose it.

When the Bible tells us that the Lamb's Book was written before the foundations of the works - this is what is known as phenomenological language. It's not humanly logical - but logical to God. It's like trying to wrap your mind around the fact that God has no beginning. He ALWAYS was.

 

[LC627]

Because it was ALWAYS our choice.

God ONLY knows because he is outside of time. He sees everything in the eternal "Now". There is no past or future to Him. Just because He knows what we chose - does NOT mean that WE didn't choose it.

When the Bible tells us that the Lamb's Book was written before the foundations of the works - this is what is known as phenomenological language. It's not humanly logical - but logical to God. It's like trying to wrap your mind around the fact that God has no beginning. He ALWAYS was.

If it is recorded then it is a known fact to God. God had all of my days recorded before a single one had pass, same with you too.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That's basically what you said, That the Holy Spirit does not lead individual people, it is only for the church leaders. As a Catholic - you have to ask yourself why there are so many unbiblical doctrines you follow if your church leaders are "led" by the Holy Spirit.

I don't know if ONE single "unbiblical" doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Anyway - I didn't say that the Holy Spirit didn't guide the individual. The Holy spirit does NOT guide the individual to different "truths" than those He has revealed to His Church. The Holy Spirit guides the indiviDual who strives to be part of His Body - HiS Church.

 

[BreadOfLife]

If it is recorded then it is a known fact to God. God had all of my days recorded before a single one had pass, same with you too.

Yup - God KNEW because he is already there.
He didn't record the names in the Book of Life at some arbitrary point a long time ago.

 

[LC627]

I don't know if ONE single "unbiblical" doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Anyway - I didn't say that the Holy Spirit didn't guide the individual. The Holy spirit does NOT guide the individual to different "truths" than those He has revealed to His Church. The Holy Spirit guides the indiviDual who strives to be part of His Body - HiS Church.

And th

Yup - God KNEW because he is already there.
He didn't record the names in the Book of Life at some arbitrary point a long time ago.

The fact is that me, you, and every other believer in Jesus were not even in existence yet when God created the world and knew all the choices. "He chose us" Yes, I agree with you God is outside of time, but we are not, what was true to Him from the eternal past is still true now.

There would be no point in Him choosing us for adoption if He knew one would be lost. a son remains in the family forever

 

[Enoch111]

As a Protestant - you have to ask yourself why there are so many different and opposing teachings if they are ALL being "led" by the Holy Spirit.

And a Catholic must ask himself why "the one true Church" has so much false teaching.

 

[BreadOfLife]

And a Catholic must ask himself why "the one true Church" has so much false teaching.

Such as??

 

[BreadOfLife]

And th
The fact is that me, you, and every other believer in Jesus were not even in existence yet when God created the world and knew all the choices. "He chose us" Yes, I agree with you God is outside of time, but we are not, what was true to Him from the eternal past is still true now.

There would be no point in Him choosing us for adoption if He knew one would be lost. a son remains in the family forever

You're misunderstanding what His eternal position is here.

He didn't choose us "before" He created the world. This phenomenological language is simply a way to convey it to human beings. God, being outside of time, sees everything as a finished panting.

Because He sees everything in the "Eternal Now" - He knows what WE have chosen.

 

[LC627]

Such as??

to start with, Immaculate Conception
Mary was not sinless.

 

[LC627]

You're misunderstanding what His eternal position is here.

He didn't choose us "before" He created the world. This phenomenological language is simply a way to convey it to human beings. God, being outside of time, sees everything as a finished panting.

Because He sees everything in the "Eternal Now" - He knows what WE have chosen.

Before humans ever populated the earth everything was already settled and known, He knows the end from the beginning. Stating that is was just phenomenological takes away from the sovereignty of God, just my thought on it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

to start with, Immaculate Conception
Mary was not sinless.

That's NOT what the Bible says . . .

The Greek word is Kecharitomene that Luke used in his Gospel (v.1:28), which is the perfect passive participle, indicates a "completed action with permanent result". It translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.”

Kecharitomene is not a mere description here. It is used as a title – a name.
NO other person in ALL of Scripture is given this title.

The Angel didn’t say, “Hail Mary, full of grace.” He said. "Hail, Kecharitomene."

 

[BreadOfLife]

Before humans ever populated the earth everything was already settled and known, He knows the end from the beginning. Stating that is was just phenomenological takes away from the sovereignty of God, just my thought on it.

That all depends on what YOU consider "Sovreignty".
If you believe that it means that God made the choice FOR us - then that is 100% unbiblical.

Unfortunately, that is what Calvin taught.

 

[LC627]

That all depends on what YOU consider "Sovreignty".
If you believe that it means that God made the choice FOR us - then that is 100% unbiblical.

Unfortunately, that is what Calvin taught.

None of us could make a choice for God unless God convicted us. Human nature is bound in sin and no sinner ever desires to follow God until they're convicted by God.

John 6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

[BreadOfLife]

None of us could make a choice for God unless God convicted us. Human nature is bound in sin and no sinner ever desires to follow God until they're convicted by God.

John 6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

And Scripture tells us that He gibes EVERYBODY that chance . . .
1 Tim. 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

NOT all, however will choose to do so.

 

[LC627]

And Scripture tells us that He gibes EVERYBODY that chance . . .
1 Tim. 2:3-4
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Of course He does, I don't disagree with that. What I am making reference to is that it takes the act of God for one to have salvation. Unsaved people don't suddenly decide to follow Jesus in full submission.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Of course He does, I don't disagree with that. What I am making reference to is that it takes the act of God for one to have salvation. Unsaved people don't suddenly decide to follow Jesus in full submission.

It takes an act of God for somebody to come to faith.
It takes that person's cooperation with that grace to come to salvation.

You cannot be saved if YOU don't want to.

 

[Enoch111]

to start with, Immaculate Conception
Mary was not sinless.

That's a good start. But this thread could get derailed if we list all the false teachings of the RCC here. Perhaps a separate thread would be in order.

 

[Heb 13:8]

The Holy Spirit guides the indiviDual who strives to be part of His Body - HiS Church.

No, a believer becomes a part of His body through belief, not striving or works. God bles

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, a believer becomes a part of His body through belief, not striving or works. God bles

HOGWASH.

James 2:19 tells us explicitly that even the DEMONS believe.
Are they part of His Body??

Belief is NOT enough (James 2:19).
True Faith = Belief + Obedience (works).