Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

[amadeus]

In actuality, that's the truth. Either you're born again or not. Either you believe on the finished work of the cross or not.

Heb 4:3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'" And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world.

God bles

Perhaps you are saying Jesus' sacrifice did more than it did. He made it possible for people to be clean and alive, but they still had to do what Adam and Eve failed to do … partake of the Tree of Life while without sin. For Adam and Eve it was a possibility while they lived. But they both chose to dies no dead thing could partake of that Tree. First it had to Live. That is one reason that Jesus came:

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

 

[epostle1]

Not really.

Bible Christianity -- the Bible is the sole and supreme authority for all matters of doctrine and practice.

Chapter and verse, please.

RCC -- "Holy Tradition" is equal to Scripture, and must be accepted as authoritative.

Paul seems to think so.

Bible Christianity -- only the 66 books of the Bible are Scripture.

According to human opinion in the 16th century, and not before.

RCC -- the Apocrypha is also Scripture.

"Apocrypha" is an annoying term. Books rejected by the Church are also "Apocrypha". The correct term for inspired books rejected by Martin Luther is Deuterocanon and they were used by Jesus, and Apostles, and the Greek Bereans 200 years before Christ.

Bible Christianity -- Christ is the Head of the Church, and the Church is the Body of redeemed believers -- both Jews and Gentiles -- regardless of denomination.

That's a Catholic teaching you borrowed from us.

RCC -- the Pope is the head of the Church, and the RCC is the Church as well as the Mother Church.

The Pope is the earthly head and servant of the Church on earth. He is subject to Christ. We believe Jesus has the authority to appoint an earthly head for the Church on earth and we don't diminish that authority. Their are 70+ NT verses indicating Peter's leadership and spokesman for all the Apostles. We don't even need one verse out of Matthew. Papal authority did not die when Peter died. The empty chair (of Peter) was filled by Linus.

Bible Christianity -- sinners are justified by grace through faith.

Catholic Christianity-- sinners are justified by grace through faith. That's another Catholic doctrine you borrowed from us. grace through faith indeed, but grace through faith alone is a man made "Bible Christian" tradition.

--RCC -- sinners are saved through the sacraments.

If the proper disposition is absent, I would reject them too. Anti-Catholics don't understand "proper disposition" nor do they understand what a sacrament is. It's not a magic charm. It's because the incarnation principle is absent from the "Bible Christian" system.

The Church produced the Bible, the Church didn't pop out of a book. A "Bible Christian" who rejects the Church that gave us the Bible in the first place IS ILLOGICAL AND SELF DEFEATING.

Bible Christianity -- Children of God have eternal security in Christ and will enter Heaven.

You have it backwards. We have eternal security in Christ if we persevere to the end, and then die. Then we have eternal security. Do you want proof texts? Eternal security before death is a reformist invention.

RCC -- No one can know that they are eternally secure and will enter Heaven.

Some can know of their salvation if it has been divinely revealed, but that is extremely rare. Catholics can be confident of their eternal security, but no one, not even you, can be infallibly certain, unless you persevere to the end and then die. After that, you can be infallibly certain of your eternal security, BUT NOT BEFORE. Do you require proof texts?

These are just a few major differences.

Each one of these "differences" could fill a page, please keep it down to one or two topics, normally I don't bother replying to shot gun tactics.

 

[amadeus]

Of course sanctification is a process. Coming to faith in Christ is the one time event, Rom 10:9.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Rom 10:9

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46
And just what is it that Jesus tell us we need to do? What did Jesus do? He opened the Door, which is Himself, and we are to walk through it and to partake of Him.

"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body." I Cor 11:27-29

We need to be made worthy before we can partake. That is what is necessary after we speak the words of repentance and faith. If we proceed unworthily we have a problem no matter how sincere we were when we repented and believed.

How often are we to eat and drink of His body and His blood? Only once? I think not. Why do we need to eat His flesh and drink His blood again?

 

[Heb 13:8]

That has nothing to do with demons who believe. The point you missed is that believing isn't enough.

BoL didn't even suggest that. Not remotely.

Mat 8:31-32

- God bless

I agree, believing isn't enough to obtain Godly righteousness. It has nothing to do with losing salvation. James 2 doesn't even suggest that, not remotely.

James 2 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

- God bless

Heb 13:8, Just so you know, salvation by works (apart from the grace of Christ) is a heresy called Pelagianism. It was condemned by the Catholic Church as a heresy 1000 years before the first Protestant was born. Yet the myth lives on.

If it was condemned by the Catholic Church, then why is BOL swimming in it

Finally - show me one verse in Scripture that says we must accept Jesus as our "personal Lord and Savior".

How much more personal can the indwelling Holy Spirit be

Matt 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Matt 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

looks like the wolves are on their way,at least they got their works tho. God bless

 

[Heb 13:8]

Perhaps you are saying Jesus' sacrifice did more than it did. He made it possible for people to be clean and alive, but they still had to do what Adam and Eve failed to do … partake of the Tree of Life while without sin. For Adam and Eve it was a possibility while they lived. But they both chose to dies no dead thing could partake of that Tree. First it had to Live. That is one reason that Jesus came:

Or maybe Adam and Eve lived and died before Pentecost, Acts 2:1-4, Eph 1:13-14.

We need to be made worthy before we can partake. That is what is necessary after we speak the words of repentance and faith.

We are made worthy through believing and confessing, Rom 10:9.

If we proceed unworthily we have a problem no matter how sincere we were when we repented and believed.

Do you know what an accuser is?

Jhn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Rom 8:33 Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one--for God himself has given us right standing with himself.

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

God bless

 

[Taken]

Ummmmmm, show me where the Bible teaches this.
Show me the chapter and verse that makes the claim that once I believe - I will "FOREVER" be kept in Christ.

How many times do you have to be told, explained, shown...????

Mans act ~ BY his own choice
hearing, reading, learing about, believing

Gods act ~ FOR the man believing he is
Enlightened and given faith

Gods act ~ KEEP believing, KEEP receiving enlightment and faith

Mans act ~ stop believing, walk away, loses faith, loses opportunity TO BECOME SAVED and QUICKENED...

Mans act ~ continue believing, continues receiving enlightment and faith

Gods act ~ filling the mans HEART with faith, preparing the man TO RECEIVE SALVATION and QUICKENED spirit.

Mans act ~ Continued hearing, continued learning, HEART prepared, MAN MAKES A DECISION IF and WHEN To CALL ON THE Lord...(or not).

Gods act ~ the Lord has prepared the man, (called the man to receive Salvation & Quickeneing).

Mans act ~ To call on the Lords Name and CONFESS his heartfelt BELIEF in the Lord.

Gods act ~
Forgive the man FOR HIS DISBELIEF
Crucified his body
Cleanse his body
Sanctify his body
Justify his body
Keep his body for redemption day
SAVE his soul from separation from God
Quicken his spirit with Gods Seed
....(ie Baptized IN CHRIST, Father, Son, HS)
Circumcise his old heart
Dwell within the man FOREVER
KEEP the man in faithfulness TO God FOREVER.............BY HIS POWER!

WORKS a man thereafter does;

That glorify God...shall be rewarded
That DO NOT glorify God..shall be burned

Believing is ONE thing as you have been repeatedly told. Men who are believing, ARE receiving FAITH....and CAN LOSE faith....and LOSE Salvation that was prepared for them TO RECEIVE.

ONCE a BELIEVING man....calls on the Lords Name...with his CONFESSION OF HEARTFELT BELIEF........The man become CONVERTED and KEPT CONVERTED FOREVER....BY THE INDWELLING POWER of God.

You seem to NOT KNOW the difference between....
A MAN claiming he believes.....
And
A MAN claiming he CONFESSED HIS BELIEF TO THE Lord and BECAME SAVED and BORN AGAIN.

A man ( IN CHRIST) WORKS have zero affect on his salvation and quickening.
1 Cor 3:15

IF you are WORKING TOWARD RECEIVING SLAVATION.....You thus are NOT Saved.
That is what was effective UNDER the OLD Covenant....given Jews.
THAT YOU, a Gentile were not UNDER, nor are YOU a Gentile UNDER it now, yet you teach you are.

 

[Taken]

Ummmmmm, show me where the Bible teaches this.
Show me the chapter and verse that makes the claim that once I believe - I will "FOREVER" be kept in Christ.

Yipes....

Believe, Receive Faith, Decide to Commit, Commit, Become Converted, Remain forever Faithful by the Lords Power.

You see - MY Bible says that belief is only part of the equation.

You see - YOU have page after page concocted a CIRCULAR ARGUMENT.

There is a PROCESS for a man TO BECOME "saved and born again".

Hearing, Learning about the Lord and Believing IS THE BEGINNING.

You reply......to the step by step PROCESS of a natural man TO BECOME "saved and born again".....AS

RANT!

Then you proceed with your CIRCULAR ARGUMENT.

EXAMPLE....ALREADY ESTABLISHED .... BELIEF is the mans BEGINNING toward receiving FAITH.

EXAMPLE....ALREADY ESTABLISHED....
FAITH-FULLNESS is the man receiving the GIFT of FAITHFULLNESS from God.

EXAMPLE....ALREADY ESTABLISHED...
A man with FAITH-FULLNESS is "PREPARED" to CALL ON THE Lord and "CONFESS" TO THE Lord his FAITH-FULLNESS.

EXAMPLE....ALREADY ESTABLISHED...
A man "WHO DOES" call on the Lord......
THE Lord CONVERTS......FOREVER.

YOU respond...

Show me the chapter and verse that makes the claim that once I believe - I will "forever" by Kept By Christ.

A NEVER-ENDING Circular Argument YOU REPEATEDLY present....

Did you ALREADY "FORGET",
belief IS THE BEGINNING for a natural man?

Did you ALREADY "FORGET",
The "obedience" is CONTINUED learning?

Did you ALREADY "FORGET",
The "obedience" is FAITH increased?

Did you ALREADY "FORGET",
Calling on the "Lords Name" with CONFESSION?

Did you ALREADY "FORGET", the Lords "RESPONSE" TO "CONVERT" the man?

Did you ALREADY "FORGET", the man "Cooperated"...the man was "Obedient"...the Lord CONVERTED the man?

Apparently!!!

And THEN YOU ARGUE....the Lords CONVERSION....IS MOOT.....temporary, fake, not worthy to be trusted.

YOU TEACH...the Lords CONVERSION....
"IS" dependent UPON the mans ABILITY to REMAIN FAITHFUL and PLEASE THE Lord BY the mans WORKS.

^^^^ FALSE^^^^

You cannot have true faith without obedience . . .

So, OBEY, and BECOME Coverted.

 

[Taken]

And YOU should stop trying to invent different rules for salvation for different races of people and for the sexes.

Gal. 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

There are no racists or misogynists in Heaven, my angry friend . . .

LOL...."angry"....No, I am not "angry".

Mystified why adults are still clinging to brain-washing, insteading of leaving mommy and daddy and seeking the Lord as a child trusts.

Different "RULES" ? Gal 3:28

Absolutely...as IDENTIFIED...
"OF" those "IN CHRIST",
"FROM" those "NOT IN CHRIST".

Not a secret...A GENTILE or A JEW...
CAN BE "IN CHRIST".

Not a secret...A GENTILE or A JEW...
CAN BE "NOT IN CHRIST.

Not a secret...
The "MAJORITY" of the people of "JEWISH" descent and "JEWISH" Religion.....

"ARE NOT" IN CHRIST!!!!

But then you have REPEATEDLY demonstrated, you ignore what has been ESTABLISHED, in an attempt to continue with your irrelevant circular arguments.

 

[Taken]

80-90% of YOUR doctrines are borrowed from the CC.

"IF" that is true....

THEN WHY the NUMEROUS DISAGREEMENTS between Protestants and Catholics?

 

[Taken]

God GIVES "GIFTS" to NATURAL UNBELIEVING men.

THOSE "GIFTS" a man MAY RECEIVE, USE or REJECT.

God GIVES "GIFTS" to "CONVERTED" BELIEVING men.

THOSE "GIFTS" "are" "RECEIVED" by the man, and ARE "FOREVER" the mans "gifts" to HAVE and KEEP.

THOSE "GIFTS" "ARE" "FOREVER" "KEPT" unto the man.........
"BY THE POWER OF GOD"....

NOT by the "power of a man".....AS "some" Catholics teach.

 

[BreadOfLife]

How much more personal can the indwelling Holy Spirit be

Matt 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Matt 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

looks like the wolves are on their way,at least they got their works tho. God bless

I see you're as "adept" at cherry-picking my posts as you are at cherry-picking Scripture - but you have FAILED on both counts.

First off - I asked you to show me ONE verse that even implies that we are to accept Jesus as "personal Lord and Savior."
EPIC FAIL.

I also showed you that you were DEAD wrong about "belief" being the criteria for being incorporated into the Body of Christ (James 2:19). You failed here as well.

Ummmmm, speaking of "wolves" - and not very bright ones at that . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

How many times do you have to be told, explained, shown...????

Mans act ~ BY his own choice
hearing, reading, learing about, believing

Gods act ~ FOR the man believing he is
Enlightened and given faith

Gods act ~ KEEP believing, KEEP receiving enlightment and faith

Mans act ~ stop believing, walk away, loses faith, loses opportunity TO BECOME SAVED and QUICKENED...

Mans act ~ continue believing, continues receiving enlightment and faith

Gods act ~ filling the mans HEART with faith, preparing the man TO RECEIVE SALVATION and QUICKENED spirit.

Mans act ~ Continued hearing, continued learning, HEART prepared, MAN MAKES A DECISION IF and WHEN To CALL ON THE Lord...(or not).

Gods act ~ the Lord has prepared the man, (called the man to receive Salvation & Quickeneing).

Mans act ~ To call on the Lords Name and CONFESS his heartfelt BELIEF in the Lord.

Gods act ~
Forgive the man FOR HIS DISBELIEF
Crucified his body
Cleanse his body
Sanctify his body
Justify his body
Keep his body for redemption day
SAVE his soul from separation from God
Quicken his spirit with Gods Seed
....(ie Baptized IN CHRIST, Father, Son, HS)
Circumcise his old heart
Dwell within the man FOREVER
KEEP the man in faithfulness TO God FOREVER.............BY HIS POWER!
WORKS a man thereafter does;
That glorify God...shall be rewarded
That DO NOT glorify God..shall be burned
Believing is ONE thing as you have been repeatedly told. Men who are believing, ARE receiving FAITH....and CAN LOSE faith....and LOSE Salvation that was prepared for them TO RECEIVE.
ONCE a BELIEVING man....calls on the Lords Name...with his CONFESSION OF HEARTFELT BELIEF........The man become CONVERTED and KEPT CONVERTED FOREVER....BY THE INDWELLING POWER of God.
You seem to NOT KNOW the difference between....
A MAN claiming he believes.....
And
A MAN claiming he CONFESSED HIS BELIEF TO THE Lord and BECAME SAVED and BORN AGAIN.
A man ( IN CHRIST) WORKS have zero affect on his salvation and quickening.
1 Cor 3:15
IF you are WORKING TOWARD RECEIVING SLAVATION.....You thus are NOT Saved.
That is what was effective UNDER the OLD Covenant....given Jews.
THAT YOU, a Gentile were not UNDER, nor are YOU a Gentile UNDER it now, yet you teach you are.

You keep posting these LONG, verbose rants - but ALL I have asked you for is ONE verse that substantiates what you are saying. All you ever give are your own opinions - and you know what they say about opinions . . .

So far, you have FAILED to produce ONE verse that says a man can "never" lose his secure position with God by his own doing.
On the other hand - I have presented over a DOZEN that say he can.

STILL waiting for that ONE verse . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yipes....

Believe, Receive Faith, Decide to Commit, Commit, Become Converted, Remain forever Faithful by the Lords Power.

VERSE - not opinion.
I want the VERSE . . .

You see - YOU have page after page concocted a CIRCULAR ARGUMENT.

There is a PROCESS for a man TO BECOME "saved and born again".

Hearing, Learning about the Lord and Believing IS THE BEGINNING.

You reply......to the step by step PROCESS of a natural man TO BECOME "saved and born again".....AS



Then you proceed with your CIRCULAR ARGUMENT.

EXAMPLE....ALREADY ESTABLISHED .... BELIEF is the mans BEGINNING toward receiving FAITH.

EXAMPLE....ALREADY ESTABLISHED....
FAITH-FULLNESS is the man receiving the GIFT of FAITHFULLNESS from God.

EXAMPLE....ALREADY ESTABLISHED...
A man with FAITH-FULLNESS is "PREPARED" to CALL ON THE Lord and "CONFESS" TO THE Lord his FAITH-FULLNESS.

EXAMPLE....ALREADY ESTABLISHED...
A man "WHO DOES" call on the Lord......
THE Lord CONVERTS......FOREVER.

YOU respond...
A NEVER-ENDING Circular Argument YOU REPEATEDLY present....

Did you ALREADY "FORGET",
belief IS THE BEGINNING for a natural man?

Did you ALREADY "FORGET",
The "obedience" is CONTINUED learning?

Did you ALREADY "FORGET",
The "obedience" is FAITH increased?

Did you ALREADY "FORGET",
Calling on the "Lords Name" with CONFESSION?

Did you ALREADY "FORGET", the Lords "RESPONSE" TO "CONVERT" the man?

Did you ALREADY "FORGET", the man "Cooperated"...the man was "Obedient"...the Lord CONVERTED the man?

Apparently!!!

And THEN YOU ARGUE....the Lords CONVERSION....IS MOOT.....temporary, fake, not worthy to be trusted.

YOU TEACH...the Lords CONVERSION....
"IS" dependent UPON the mans ABILITY to REMAIN FAITHFUL and PLEASE THE Lord BY the mans WORKS.

^^^^ FALSE^^^^

So, OBEY, and BECOME Coverted.

Another bizarre, verbose rant.
Another LOST opportunity to produce the verse that supports your false position . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL...."angry"....No, I am not "angry".

Mystified why adults are still clinging to brain-washing, insteading of leaving mommy and daddy and seeking the Lord as a child trusts.

Different "RULES" ? Gal 3:28

Absolutely...as IDENTIFIED...
"OF" those "IN CHRIST",
"FROM" those "NOT IN CHRIST".

Not a secret...A GENTILE or A JEW...
CAN BE "IN CHRIST".

Not a secret...A GENTILE or A JEW...
CAN BE "NOT IN CHRIST.

Not a secret...
The "MAJORITY" of the people of "JEWISH" descent and "JEWISH" Religion.....

"ARE NOT" IN CHRIST!!!!

But then you have REPEATEDLY demonstrated, you ignore what has been ESTABLISHED, in an attempt to continue with your irrelevant circular arguments.

EVERYBODY who is not in Christ will suffer the same fate.
Doesn't matter if they are Jews or Gentiles or Blacks or Whites or Men or Women or Chinese or whatever.

YOU don't get to "change" the rules that GOD has established.

 

[Grams]

Eph. 4:30
30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[Triumph1300]

EVERYBODY who is not in Christ will suffer the same fate.
Doesn't matter if they are Jews or Gentiles or Blacks or Whites or Men or Women or Chinese or whatever.

Why is that so hard to understand for some people.

 

[amadeus]

Or maybe Adam and Eve lived and died before Pentecost, Acts 2:1-4, Eph 1:13-14.

We are made worthy through believing and confessing, Rom 10:9.

Do you know what an accuser is?

Jhn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Rom 8:33 Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one--for God himself has given us right standing with himself.

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

God bless

For your sake it would be better for you if you were right. But if you are in error...?
Only God gives the increase!
Give God the glory!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Why is that so hard to understand for some people.

Not really sure . . .

 

[Heb 13:8]

First off - I asked you to show me ONE verse that even implies that we are to accept Jesus as "personal Lord and Savior."EPIC FAIL.

You deny the indwelling Holy Spirit, you've made that obvious BOL. God bless.

 

[Heb 13:8]

For your sake it would be better for you if you were right. But if you are in error...?
Only God gives the increase!
Give God the glory!

That's what Grace salvation does, it gives God the glory. We look towards the cross and not works. God bless.