Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

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GodsGrace

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Thanks for another cowardly non-answer.

You have not addressed my questions because you stuck your foot in your mouth regarding your position that there was NO sin prior to the Law. God destroyed the world with the flood because of sin. But, according to YOU - there was NO sin yet because the Law hadn't yet been written.

Drunkenness wasn't a sin.
Sexual licentiousness wasn't a sin.
Murder wasn't a sin
Stealing wasn't a sin.

What a comically-ignorant position - that NO reputable Protestant scholar agrees with . . .
The above is for @Taken, but...
This has confused me somewhat.
We have sin in the world after the first man sinned.

But then we have to contend with:
Romans 4:15 and Romans 5:13

Romans 4:15
15for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

Romans 5:13
13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So God caused the flood because man was so sinful.
He destroyed S and G due to sins.

But Paul says that sin was not imputed to man because there can be no sin if there is no law. Coveting is not sinful, unless the law lets us know that coveting in a sin.

So, sin was imputed in a general way upon mankind, but not in a personal way. In the O.T. righteousness was achieved on an individual basis based on the deeds, be they righteous or evil.

Just thinking out loud...
 

BreadOfLife

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You have destroyed nothing.
You are without understanding.
Salvation is a GIFT, that MUST BE RECEIVED by the man, before the man IS SAVED.
Yapping on about men hearing knowledge, believing, doubting, wondering, believing...
IS IRRELEVANT.....until the man RECEIVES Salvation.
Your ignorance is you don't know the difference between what a man can hear and believe in HIS MIND and a man confessing belief in HIS HEART.
Any man can hear knowledge and believe in HIS MIND......and DUH.....CHANGE HIS MIND!
Believe, not believe, believe, doubt, believe some things, wonder, believe this, not believe that, believe this, not have learned that....
NOT NEWS! That IS HOW a man learns pretty much ALL things.
Yeah for the MIND, that can gather information and make LOGICAL conclusions;
Believe, not believe, believe, doubt, wonder, believe, not believe....
Sheesh, it's not rocket science!!
"IF"......BIG "IF"..
"IF" the man, (the INDIVIDUAL man) decides he just CAN NOT believe all the knowledge he is hearing/learning......
DUH....he stops following along.
DUH....he gives it up.
DUH....he walks away.
DUH....he decides he doesn't believe it.
DUH....he decides it is not worth his time.
DUH....HELLO...

DUH....He fell Away...
DUH....He didn't RECEIVE Salvation.
DUH....He NEVER stuck it out long enough to continue receiving Faith, that his Heart was full of Faith...that He CONFESSED belief in his Heart.
DUH....the Salvation provided by the Lord...
DUH....was NEVER RECEIVED by the man.
DUH....he lost his Salvation that the Lord provided for him....THAT HE NEVER CLAIMED and RECEIVED!
NONE of the Scriptures you have provided over and over and over....speak to a man WHO has received Salvation.
Those scriptures speak about men being enlightened to the Knowledge of Scripture, and believing IN THEIR MIND....without YET believing in THEIR HEARTS....and being WARNED to keep following and hearing and being enlightened and receiving faith, till their heart is full of faith and them prepared to receive their Salvation....or they shall lose it.
You are without understanding.
Salvation is a GIFT.
The Lord provides the GIFT.

If a man doesn't reach out and ACCEPT the Gift, he loses out on receiving the Gift that was provided for him.
A man WHO DOES reach out and ACCEPT the Gift of Salvation....IT IS HIS FOREVER.
Your twisted teaching, AS IF, the Lord "GIVES" a man the gift of Salvation, and THEN the Lord reaches out and TAKES BACK that gift of Salvation FROM THE MAN...Is total lunacy, and completely IN CONTRAST to Scripture.
I see that you're STILL having difficulty addressing the Scriptural proof I gave you that destroys OSAS.
You keep repeating the same tired drivel in these long angry rants - but you jut don't get it.

A gift can be received.
A gift can be rejected.
A gift can be received - and later thrown away.

God doesn't force us to keep His gifts.
 

BreadOfLife

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The above is for @Taken, but...
This has confused me somewhat.
We have sin in the world after the first man sinned.

But then we have to contend with:
Romans 4:15 and Romans 5:13

Romans 4:15
15for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

Romans 5:13
13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So God caused the flood because man was so sinful.
He destroyed S and G due to sins.

But Paul says that sin was not imputed to man because there can be no sin if there is no law. Coveting is not sinful, unless the law lets us know that coveting in a sin.

So, sin was imputed in a general way upon mankind, but not in a personal way. In the O.T. righteousness was achieved on an individual basis based on the deeds, be they righteous or evil.

Just thinking out loud...
Before the Law – there was sin. Sin entered the world through Adam (Rom. 5:12, 1 Cor. 15:21).

People got drunk, engaged in sexual immorality, stole and murdered – and these were ALL sins. Sin reigned over the world and that’s Why God destroyed the world in the Flood.

These sins were not imputed (declared) sins that were punishable by the Law until the Law was written.
HOWEVER - sins prior to the Law violated the NATURAL Law that is written in our heart and on our conscience.

This is why Cain knew what he did was wrong when he killed his brother Abel. There was no law against murder – but his conscience told him it was wrong.
 

BreadOfLife

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You have to read it in context, which you would need the Holy Spirit to discern, no?
I AM reading it in context.
If anything - YOU are avoiding the context here.
That's because you've already made up your mind Rom 8:33, 38-39..

You can't give a blind man sight unless he believes..

Matt 9:28 When he had gone indoors, the blind men came to him, and he asked them, "Do you believe that I am able to do this?" "Yes, Lord," they replied.
Romans 8 has NOTHING to do with walking away from God.
It is about nobody being able to strip you away from Him - and I agree with that.

If I walk away from God - it is MY choice and MY fault - even if I am being led away by others.
This is more a matter of perseverance that it is security . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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You can CHALLENGE the Lord's Word over and over and over....

A few people BELIEVE and TRUST the Lord's WORD is TRUE...

That "IF" a man, confesses heartfelt belief, to the Lord, the man IS saved.

That "IF" a man, does so confess, the Lord shall quicken the mans spirit.

That "IF" a man, does so confess, the Lords Spirit SHALL dwell within the man forever.

It would require YOU to do your own study to learn the knowledge of what is required and "IF" a man, does so accomplish the "IF", the Lord is FAITHFUL to do ALL scripture Reveals in the Knowledge.

Some men TRUST TO BELIEVE, the Lords WORD IS TRUE, and accomplished WHEN HE SPEAKS, even if, UNLIKE you, you wait to SEE, IF the Lords WORD, shall come to pass.

I KNOW WHAT "IF'S" I have accomplished.
I TRUST the Lord is Faithful and True, whether or not I CAN SEE what He has accomplished IN ME.

I have ZERO obligation to satisfy your ignorance or disbelief.

My relationship between the Lord and myself is personal, between the Lord and myself.

I can also have a relationship with OTHER men WHOSE "standing" is ALSO "WITH" the Lord.

MY STANDING is WITH the Lord.
I can know another mans standing by what comes out of his own mouth and behavior.

You present yourself IN STANDING WITH a man called a pope and AGAINST all other men who do not STAND WITH YOU, and your STANDING with a man called a pope.

You also present yourself in Standing Against Scripture.

You present yourself without spiritual understanding; and bore me with your endless irrelevant carnal minded nonsense.
Ummmm, the ONLY one here who is "challenging" the Lord is YOU because you insist on inventing doctrines that have NOTHING to do with the context of Scripture.

OSASers are absolutists, in that they take one or two verses and build a doctrine around them, proclaiming them as "absolute truth" - while avoiding ALL of the other verses that say just the opposite.

If your doctrine doesn't harmonize with the rest of Scripture - it is a LIE.
 

Rollo Tamasi

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Ummmm, the ONLY one here who is "challenging" the Lord is YOU because you insist on inventing doctrines that have NOTHING to do with the context of Scripture.

OSASers are absolutists, in that they take one or two verses and build a doctrine around them, proclaiming them as "absolute truth" - while avoiding ALL of the other verses that say just the opposite.

If your doctrine doesn't harmonize with the rest of Scripture - it is a LIE.
Ever hear of misunderstanding Scripture?
That's you.
 

GodsGrace

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Before the Law – there was sin. Sin entered the world through Adam (Rom. 5:12, 1 Cor. 15:21).

People got drunk, engaged in sexual immorality, stole and murdered – and these were ALL sins. Sin reigned over the world and that’s Why God destroyed the world in the Flood.

These sins were not imputed (declared) sins that were punishable by the Law until the Law was written.
HOWEVER - sins prior to the Law violated the NATURAL Law that is written in our heart and on our conscience.

This is why Cain knew what he did was wrong when he killed his brother Abel. There was no law against murder – but his conscience told him it was wrong.
Looks like we agree.
I forgot about the Natural Law.
Even non-believers know about the Natural Law, but, who knows, subjective morality might be interrupting that too.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Right, demons know their fate is sealed just like believers know their fate is sealed.

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Right.
I know I’m sealed – PROVIDED I don’t fall away.

The word “Apostasy” comes from the Greek word ἀποστασία (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah), which means to “Fall away” or “repudiate” from a deeply-held position. We see this word in 2 Thess. 2:3, where the 2nd Coming of Christ is being spoken of. It says that it cannot come until the APOSTASY.
I think you missed the point here. The saints aren't causing the wickedness, nonbelievers are. The saints are dying because of martyrdom (righteousness), those who are in Christ.
I didn’t miss anything.

It says that they must “endure to the end” in order to be saved. That goes for everybody – not just the Tribulation saints.
BOL, there's sanctification at our initial salvation, but then there's also sanctification that is continual throughout our lives.
There are THREE types of Sanctification.

The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8).
This is INITIAL Sanctification – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is ONGOING Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is FINAL Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.
According to you or God?
BOTH.
This is referring to baptism in the Holy Spirit, and that comes through belief. You better believe He meant it.

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
And you conveniently left out HOW we are Baptized.
We are Baptized with WATER and the Spirit.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of WATER and Spirit.
 
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Taken

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I see that you're STILL having difficulty addressing the Scriptural proof I gave you that destroys OSAS.
You keep repeating the same tired drivel in these long angry rants - but you jut don't get it.

A gift can be received.
A gift can be rejected.

A gift can be received - and later thrown away.

That's dandy for actions between men.
THat does not apply in an action between a man and God.

God doesn't force us to keep His gifts.

Well...uh, ya He does FORCE YOU TO KEEP YOUR SALVATION! But then you were warned, it's permanent. And by the way, the KEEPING has nothing to do with the mans efforts; It is ALL KEPT By the Power of God!


I see you still FAIL to comprehend the difference between:
Mindfully believing, while learning
And
Heartfully believing, and committing

I see you still FAIL to comprehend WHAT exactaly a man is Committing to the Lord.
 
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Taken

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Ummmm, the ONLY one here who is "challenging" the Lord is YOU because you insist on inventing doctrines that have NOTHING to do with the context of Scripture.

OSASers are absolutists, in that they take one or two verses and build a doctrine around them, proclaiming them as "absolute truth" - while avoiding ALL of the other verses that say just the opposite.

Actually it is the whole of Scripture; but people like you who can not believe in Gods SAVING grace being Once and Sufficient...

Ya'll require the one-lines, like an elementary student who requires a billeted fact sheet.

So, we appease you, and still you whine and make up false accusations. TO which, we are to just let the ignorant be ignorant and enjoy their own ignorance.

If your doctrine doesn't harmonize with the rest of Scripture - it is a LIE.

You have admitted "one or two verses" have been given you. So what's your intent? To attempt to prove a conflict in Scriptures?
 

Reggie Belafonte

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avoiding the point, not confronting it.
belief (hopefully) leads to faith, which leads to works or does not, but regardless,

faith without works is dead, and quoting vv that seem to dispute that is not agreeing with Scripture, which should be obvious to you?

Iow address "faith without works is dead" some kind of way, even if i don't agree with it, for your own sake imo.

Just quoting vv that in your mind negate some other v demonstrates that you have not assimilated the vv you don't particularly like, doesn't it?
I agree that the fact is that faith without the works is dead and I have come across some people claim that such is talking about 'your works'. no one could be so stupid to claim that James is talking about your own works at all, as anyone who is born again truly knows James is talking about 'your Works abiding in the Holy Spirit', not your works for crying out loud as to say such a thing like that is just Satanic. I have had some say that the KJV were thinking of cutting out the book of James from the bible because of it, but sadly they gave in to it. what nonsense.

One must abide in the Vine, that Vine is Jesus Christ the well spring, abiding is doing his will.
This abiding has to do with you firstly and then you are to produce fruit, some much and some maybe not so much, or it may be seen as not much by others, but that's not the point as each person has it's own gifts in the body of Christ. we are not out to show off our merits to others.

Look at me I am more holy than thou ! ha ha.
I don't this or that ? so that proves I am better than you ?
well stuff like that is boasting and such is in fact of mans works. we see others doing wrong or are off the track but we should not condemn one who has faith, but be patience and guidance is a virtue that can work wonders.
Don't get to upset because one may of done the wrong thing, because that's the way one can learn and be strengthened by such a experience.

I did something wrong once 37 years ago and people still bag me about it, thinking it's a great joke, they truly love that story. I know that they are just ignorant and truly totally pathetic but the fact is they know nothing about the reality of the situation and nor do they care or truly bother to listen, but I was strengthened because of it way beyond their comprehension, I had first hand experience in such and if someone was going down the same path that lead to do something like what I did, I would be the far better person for such a person to talk with on the subject, so as to be lead on the right track than the Law ever will do, well if they don't repent then the Law is the only option for them.
By the works in Jesus I was strengthen and not by the Law or any other person, but people can only be a guide for one, to point to who is the true redeemer in all peoples lives.
It's all a work in progress for everyone abiding in the Vine.
So it's abiding in the Vine or become a fool, or being lead by the one who leads the whole world astray.
 
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Taken

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The above is for @Taken, but...
This has confused me somewhat.
We have sin in the world after the first man sinned.

But then we have to contend with:
Romans 4:15 and Romans 5:13

Romans 4:15
15for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

Romans 5:13
13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So God caused the flood because man was so sinful.
He destroyed S and G due to sins.

But Paul says that sin was not imputed to man because there can be no sin if there is no law. Coveting is not sinful, unless the law lets us know that coveting in a sin.

So, sin was imputed in a general way upon mankind, but not in a personal way. In the O.T. righteousness was achieved on an individual basis based on the deeds, be they righteous or evil.

Just thinking out loud...

SIN in a nutshell IS rebellion AGAINST GOD.
The key word is not SIN, but rather the key word is AGAINST God.

Everything hinges on;
Being AGAINST God
Or
Being WITH God

Because all men are naturally born, from a natural seed of a man who Rebelled AGAINST God, ta da, ALL men are naturally Born in sin AGAINST God.

AND, that living soul God gave us, which quickened our corrupt natural body into a living state....

Well, we are in sin, and everything we do, while NOT being WITH GOD....oops, affects our living soul being in our corrupt body.

What a blow eh? Bummer.
The WHOLE of Scripture is designed to teach men of their own generation HOW TO BE WITH God. I say "of their own generation"...
Because like our own little children; who begin knowing little; so also were the first men who inhabited the earth.

So we look back, and observe the generations of men, having done with them exactly what we do with our young children.

RULES, RULES, RULES. It's a teaching method. God used it, parents use it. Teaching the "unknowing" for their benefit, AND well-being. And as the parent or (God), keeping an eye on those children who are being taught. Reign them in when they disobey, and stray and they learn and try things on their own.

And we don't tell them EVERYTHING at once, that they shall need to Function in a corrupt world. It's bit, by bit. As children grow and mature, we give them more knowledge, understanding, observe their responsibility, are pleased with them at time and displeased at other time....

It is the same with God and generations of men.

Parents can faulter, break a promise, lie, let things slide, be forgiving, be honorable, be trustworthy, or not.

God can only be truthful and faithful to His own Word. If He says it; it is. We do not have to wonder IF He is trustworthy.

Thousands of years of rules/laws given to generations of men via God....hello.
Look at the generation of men today.
Instant knowledge available, travel, communication abounds, etc. etc....

Look at Gods Rules/Laws.
Began with ONE...Trust to Believe.
Ends with ONE...Trust to Believe.
And inbetween the beginning and these last days, were the rules/laws for beginners.
All the information and knowledge is now revealed. These are the last days.
Time for men to decide.
Choose thee this day...
With God or Against God...that simple.

And Gods Word? Gods Desire? The SAME.
Always the same from the beginning:
With Him or Against Him.
True Belief in Him or Against Him.

He is coming soon, to claim His Church, His People, and purify the earth, as He first cleansed the earth with water, He shall purify the earth with fire.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Heb 13:8

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avoiding the point, not confronting it.
belief (hopefully) leads to faith, which leads to works or does not, but regardless,

faith without works is dead, and quoting vv that seem to dispute that is not agreeing with Scripture, which should be obvious to you?

Iow address "faith without works is dead" some kind of way, even if i don't agree with it, for your own sake imo.

Just quoting vv that in your mind negate some other v demonstrates that you have not assimilated the vv you don't particularly like, doesn't it?

What are the works of the thief on the cross and those on their death bed.
 

Heb 13:8

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Sooooo, show me how 1 John 2:24 is "figurative" and not literal.

Because of contradiction. The title of 1 John 2:18-27 is "Warnings Against Denying the Son". The promised Holy Spirit will never leave a believer, and a believer will never deny the Son because the Holy Spirit never leaves them.

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1 John 2:25 And this is what he promised us--eternal life.

1 John 5:9-14 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
 

Heb 13:8

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If I walk away from God - it is MY choice and MY fault - even if I am being led away by others. This is more a matter of perseverance that it is security . . .

Perseverance from trouble, hardship, persecution, famine, nakedness, danger or sword or even DEATH and FUTURE? :rolleyes:

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Rom 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

Heb 13:8

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And you conveniently left out HOW we are Baptized.
We are Baptized with WATER and the Spirit.
John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of WATER and Spirit.

(1.) Spiritual water, not sink water. John 7:38

(2.) 2 Thess 2:3 falling away is rapture. The restrainer is the Holy Spirit living in believers.

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (rapture) FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2 Thess 2:7-8 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8AND THEN the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

(3). Enduring to the end is martyrdom in the 70th week, (Matt 24:12 agape love are for believers only). Nonbelievers will all have the mark of the beast (Rev 13). Thankfully, the church will be gone.

The Scriptures assure us that we as Christians are ALREADY SAVED

I thought you said you're catholic and worship the pope? In order to be saved you must admit you're a sinner, confess with your mouth and believe in your heart. Rom 10:9-10. God Bless.