Once Saved, Always Saved?

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Ferris Bueller

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You realize, I'm certain, that the method and means that God provided by which we are justified by Him has changed over time, yes? Before under Law, now through grace and faith, how you you certain this passage doesn't mean what it says?
...because he's speaking of a time long after the change from the covenant of law to (or, back to) the covenant of faith.

And just to be clear, it isn't that the passage doesn't really mean what it says. We will indeed be judged according to our works. It just doesn't tell us, specifically, that these works by which we will be judged to enter into the kingdom are produced by faith in his forgiveness, like how the sinful woman's works of love were the result of her having received forgiveness of her sin (Luke 7:47).
 

Ferris Bueller

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I wouldn't be so quick to "instantly rule out" the plain reading of a part of Scripture.
It's a plain reading. We will all in fact be judged according to our works. What the passage does not explain is the works by which we are judged worthy of the kingdom are the works produced by the faith that justifies, which is "faith, expressing itself through love" (Galatians 5:6). We get that information from the rest of scripture.
 

marks

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...because he's speaking of a time long after the change from the covenant of law to (or, back to) the covenant of faith.

And just to be clear, it isn't that the passage doesn't really mean what it says. We will indeed be judged according to our works. It just doesn't tell us, specifically, that these works by which we will be judged to enter into the kingdom are produced by faith in his forgiveness, like how the sinful woman's works of love were the result of her having received forgiveness of her sin (Luke 7:47).
What happens if you simply read it for what it says and go from there?

This judgment is not like the believer's judgment of works. If you think there is missing information that you need to supply for it to make sense, find the parallel passage that gives you this info. If it's not there, maybe that's the salient fact.

Much love!
 

marks

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And just to be clear, it isn't that the passage doesn't really mean what it says.

Matthew 25:31-35 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

"Inherit the kingdom . . . because I was hungry, and you gave me food."

Inherit the kingdom, because you did the works.

That's what it says. The reason they are invited in is because the did the things.

Do you imagine these are born again people? That they did these things because they had faith, and were regenerated?

Personally I don't make that assumption, they may only be being regenerated then, or even later, I don't know, the passage does not address that.

But given that they are sorted according to works and not according to who is and who is not God's child, then I'm not thinking that they are at that time.

Much love!
 
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BloodBought 1953

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And yet out of the other side of your mouth you say it doesn't have to. Either it does or it doesn't, BB. You have to get off the fence about this.


Are you familiar with the story of “Lydia,the Seller Of Purple” in the Book Of Acts? It was written that God “ opened her heart “ to the Believing of the Gospel......Please tell me what would have happened to Lydia if immediately after God opened her heart , and she became a Saved Believer—- what would her fate have been if she was struck by lightning one Nano-Second after she became a Believer in the Gospel That Saves .....Thanking you in advance...
 

BloodBought 1953

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It does have to occur. If it does not occur that person is not born again:

"9 ...because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. " 1 John 3:9-10
A changed person has to be changed...or else they're not changed.


I don’t see the relevance of you verse in regard to the subject.....could be “ my “ fault ....I was home- schooled....lol...
 

BloodBought 1953

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I think there will be LOTS of OSASers spending eternity with the Devil who made up the OSAS doctrine.



Doubtful.....it was Jesus who came up with it.....

“ Anybody that Believes In Me ALREADY HAS Eternal Life and shall NEVER come under Condemnation.......They have Passed from Death unto Life”.....
 

BloodBought 1953

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No, this means being purged from the building of God by fire. It means this person failed to survive the fires of the coming judgment. They were destroyed in the judgment, not saved as genuine believers will be saved through the fire. They were destroyed because at the judgment they were found to be made of that which can not make it through the coming judgment by fire. That's why each of us should be careful how we build the building of God, making sure the people we set in that building are genuine and able to withstand the coming judgment. There's no reward waiting for the laborer who's work in building the building of God gets burned up and revealed to be false, not genuine. So be careful how you build!



“ Building Of God?” As an explanation for the quoted verse? This “ take” is more twisted than a Pretzel....it doesn’t even make sense.....how some choose to complicate what God has made simple never ceases to amaze...
 

BloodBought 1953

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It depends on what one means by being saved by works. If it means 'works earn salvation' that person is lost and will not pass through the coming judgment. If it means genuine salvation is marked by the obedience of works they will indeed pass through the coming judgment, their works validating their faith as being genuine and able to 'save' them, which they will at the judgment:

"34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’" Matthew 25:34-36
See, Jesus is not describing a 'works earn salvation' gospel in the above passage. He's explaining how the validity and genuiness of one's faith will be measured by the deeds it produces - deeds that prove one's faith in and love for Jesus. A lot of people in the church think that's a works gospel but it surely is not. The life of the person not having any works of righteous love for Christ at the judgment will testify to the fact they do not believe the gospel and they will go to the left to destruction. Just as the life of a person having works of righteous love for Christ will testify to the fact that they do believe the gospel and they will go to the right and into the kingdom of God for all eternity.


This is the old “ Back Loading” Of getting saved by your works.....seen it dozens of times.....No sane man can say you are Saved by Works.....the Bible clearly disputes this—- so one just says that you are not saved by works but if you don’t “ have” works, you are Lost.....quite clever.....quite subtle .....subtlety was Satan’s strength back in the Garden Of Eden.....we need to remember that...
 
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farouk

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This is the old “ Back Loading” Of getting saved by your works.....seen it dozens of times.....No sane man can say you are Saved by Works.....the Bible clearly disputes this—- so one just says that you are not saved by works but if you don’t “ have” works, you are Lost.....quite clever.....quite subtle .....subtlety was Satan’s strength back in the Garden Of Eden.....we need to remember that...
@BloodBought 1953 Philippians 1.6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:".

cc @Eternally Grateful :)
 
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BloodBought 1953

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Yes, they will be. But they will have lives to validate the fact that they believe the gospel. John says the person who does not have a life of righteousness is not born again (1 John 3:9-10). Of course, this does not mean sinless perfection. This means an ever-increasing life of righteous living (2 Peter 1:8). The person who arrives at the judgment in his unchanged life will go to the left and to destruction.

The changed/changing life is how we know we are prepared to face the coming judgement by fire. And so we are exhorted to 'make our calling and election sure' by seeking to validate our faith by doing works of righteousness (2 Peter 1:10, Hebrews 6:11). Righteous works, motivated and driven by the fruit of the Spirit, are how we know that we have a genuine faith and are saved and will pass safely through the coming fire and into the kingdom.


God knows the Heart.....that will suffice.
 
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marks

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No, this means being purged from the building of God by fire. It means this person failed to survive the fires of the coming judgment. They were destroyed in the judgment, not saved as genuine believers will be saved through the fire.

"If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:12)

Much love!
 
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Ferris Bueller

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"If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:12)

Much love!
Read the context. The 'any man's work' is the people that the laborer ministers to. Even if those people are burned up in the judgement because the fire showed them to be fake, for whatever reason, the laborer himself will be saved. The rejection of the gospel by those I, or anyone else, ministers to does not have any bearing on my salvation (provided I myself am actually saved). I may lose reward, but I do not lose salvation when someone rejects the gospel and burns up in the judgment.

1 Corinthians 3:8-15 is not a passage that says you can arrive at the judgment without any personal works of righteousness and you'll still be saved. That violates 1 John 3:4-10 which says the person not living righteously is not born again. So it's impossible for 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 to mean you can get saved and remain unrepentant in your old life and you'll still be saved when Jesus comes back. That is a lie straight from the devil's mouth, and it's deceiving many, many people in the church (John says do not be deceived about this). And saved people in the church spouting that crap are going to lose the reward of leading people to Christ. They themselves may be saved (assuming they really are saved), but they will have no reward for the labor of sharing that terrible, misguided gospel in this life. That's why Paul exhorts us to be careful how we build the building of God (1 Corinthians 3:10). Do so in a way, and with a gospel, that will actually produce results for which you will receive a reward.
 

marks

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If the heart is right, it will produce works. If it doesn't produce works, the heart is not right. That person is not born again. John said so.
In the moment following rebirth, the person is justified, and is entered into life, but has not yet done any works, yet is born again. They will go on to do works, however, following rebirth, and before that first good work, well, you get the idea. They will go on to do works, but haven't at that time, yet are still born again.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Read the context. The 'any man's work' is the people that the laborer ministers to. Even if those people are burned up in the judgement because the fire showed them to be fake, for whatever reason, the laborer himself will be saved. The rejection of the gospel by those I, or anyone else, ministers to does not have any bearing on my salvation (provided I myself am actually saved). I may lose reward, but I do not lose salvation when someone rejects the gospel and burns up in the judgment.
I trying to understand what you are saying here.

The gold, silver, stones, wood, hay, stubble, are the people we may bring into our churches? Into the church? And the wood, hay and stubble, the fleshy people, not reborn, not spiritual, these will be burnt up with no reward to us, therefore don't bring these people into the church and in so doing causing division (the overall theme of this portion). Is that the idea?

Much love!
 

marks

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If the heart is right, it will produce works. If it doesn't produce works, the heart is not right. That person is not born again. John said so.
It's not the works that determine whether the person is born again. Faith and regeneration determine whether a person is born again.

Being born again is what determines whether or not a person will do the true works.

Much love!
 
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marks

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No, this means being purged from the building of God by fire. It means this person failed to survive the fires of the coming judgment. They were destroyed in the judgment, not saved as genuine believers will be saved through the fire.

1 Corinthians 3:9-16 KJV
9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Peter 2:4-6 KJV
4) To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

The "living temple" has conterfeit stones? I would think the false Christians are false to us only, not to God, being part of His spiritual house.

Paul tells the Corinthian Christians, "Ye are God's building". I read this as a simple indicative statement, a propositional reality, that they are in fact God's building. Understanding this in light of Peter's passage, these are God's spiritual building. Ephesians 4 teaches us to be building each other up in love. And in Corinthians, we are to build with good things, not the wrong things, and in that passage, specifically, not causing division.

Every man's work will be made manifest . . . that is to say that everyone's converts will be shown true or false? Or is that to say that what everyone has done will be revealed for what it really is?

Continuing on into the next chapter,

1 Corinthians 4:1-6 KJV
1) Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2) Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
6) And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

Paul continues to show he's talking on the same topic, and in this case telling us that Jesus' judgment will regard the counsels of our hearts, bringing to light secret things not even we know.

It really seems to me that this is talking about our efforts, and the motives for those efforts, as one plants, and another waters, but not for the results, whether a true or false convert, as it is God Who gives the increase.

So we don't take credit for that. The preaching is our work. The conversion is God's work, I should say.

Much love!
 
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