Amen, Amen, Amen!Those Jews were vessels of wrath because they would not obey. Paul says they were lost for they would not obey the righteousness of God (Romans 10:3). So they were not lost/vessels of wrath due to a capricious, unconditional decree God made before the world began.
Roman 9:22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"
Furthermore, the verse says God is "long suffering" with those vessels of wrath. Peter and Paul agree that the long suffering of God is salvation (2 Peter 3:15). Why would God be long suffering towards those disobedient Jews that they be saved if God already predetermined they be lost vessels of wrath? That creates a contradiction in the nature of God. Yet Paul's argument here being that the Jews could not accuse God of being unjust towards them in casting them off (Romans 11) when God was long patient with them that they obey and be saved. The verse is not saying God endured those He already predestined to be lost, such is an attack against the perfectly just nature of God.
Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
If those Jews were predetermined before the world began to be lost vessels of wrath, then why was Jesus desiring they be saved under His wing? A contradiction. But if they were predetermined by God to be saved, then why did they stone and kill the prophets, reject Christ's salvation? More contradiction. The fact Jesus "would" but the Jews "would not" shows free will on part of the Jews in rejecting Christ, not due to a capricious, unconditional decree made for them by God before the world began.
Mark 10, the rich young ruler: if he were predetermined by God before the world began to be lost then why would he be coming to Christ seeking eternal life? How/why would he keep the law from his youth up if he were born lost, totally depraved unable to do what is right having no desire to be saved? Why would Jesus "love him" if God is supposed to "hate" those whom God predetermined to be lost as Esau? On the other hand if he were predetermined by God before the world began to be saved, then why did he turn away and reject the eternal life offered him by Christ? A contradiction. Obviously free will was involved not predetermined eternal decrees.
Romans 9 is not a discourse on Calvinism but Paul is disproving certain false beliefs the Jews held such as God had to choose them simply because they were descendents of Abraham. Paul uses Jacob and Esau to prove God does not have to base His choices/promises on physical descent hence Paul in Romans 9 is proving God was just and right in casting off elect people the Jews. The context is anti-Calvinistic in showing elect Jews being cast off and once non-elect Gentiles being grafted in.
God chose Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Israel to make a covenant of promise with, but the choice of Abraham and not Melchizedek did not mean automatic condemnation for Melchizedek or Ismael or Esau or Edom. The Gentiles were not of the chosen/elect to receive the covenant of promise, but that did not mean automatic condemnation for the Gentiles for God sent Jonah to the Gentiles in Nineveh so they could receive God's mercy (Jonah 3) Rahab was justified (James 2). Though the Jews were God's elect, most were lost while just a 'remnant' saved. Though all Jews were elect, this distinction between Jews that some were saved and other lost was due to personal free will choice of each individual Jew in either obeying God and be saved or disobey and be lost (Romans 9:32)...most Jews chose not to seek righteousness by faith. Hence Romans 9 is about salvation not being based upon physical descent but upon an obedient faith. No Calvinism to be found at all in Rom 9 but very anti-Calvinistic.
Ephesians 1:4-5 does not teach the Calvinistic idea of God unconditionally electing certain individuals before the world began to be saved. The Bible teaches corporate election...God foreknew a group that would be called "Christian" and those who use their free will to choose to be in this group make up the elect. Paul in the context speaks of "us" and "we"..God chose "us" (those who become Christians) IN HIM. So God's chose was not capricious or unconditional but God chooses those who are conditionally "in Him" and it takes obedience to be in Christ (a Christian). The context says nothing about God foreknowing certain individuals to be elect unconditionally but says God foreknew certain traits this predestined group would possess...."holy, without blame and in Christ". And anyone who chooses to obey the gospel and become a Christian will then possess these traits. Nowhere in the NT is any individual ever said to have possessed the traits unconditionally, randomly while in disobedience to God's will. Therefore those who choose not to be in this foreknown group will justly be condemned for THEIR own choice and not for a choice God made for them against their will which would be unjust on God's part. Acts of the Apostles 10:34-25 God is not a respecter of person but any person in any nation can choose to become a Christian and be of the elect. Yet if God chooses for man which will be or not be of the elect then that akes God a respecter of person and God then is culpable for the faithless lost.
Made us alive..those Ephesians who chose to obey the gospel in being water baptized are the ones made alive together with Christ, not done by a capricious decree of God for men thereby making God culpable for the lost. Salvation of those Ephesians involved God's grace and their faith and faith includes being baptized.
Eph 2:8-----------faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saves
1 Pet 3:21-------baptism >>>>>>>>>>>>> saves
The "not of works" refer to works of merit for if one could keep the law perfectly one would earn his salvation and therefore could boast of his perfect law keeping. Yet works of merit and obedience to God in being baptized are two completely different things. Nowhere in the Bible is obedience to God ever said to be a work of merit one could boast about.
The fact God created man in His image with free will whereby man chooses for himself to be saved or lost, then God can justly condemn men for their own free will choices. What is 'unfathomable' is God predetermining men to do wickedness then God punishing those men for the wickedness God forced upon them them to commit.
Once Saved, Always Saved?
- Thread starter RR144
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Romans 11:1-2 (NKJV)
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.
Amen Jesus! God bless Israel!
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.
Amen Jesus! God bless Israel!
The test of having enough “ genuine faith” to be Saved will NOT be determining whether or not a person” lived” for Jesus or not.....Paul’s Test was this — do you Believe that Jesus was Lord—-God's Son and Your Savior? “ NO MAN can say “ Jesus is Lord” without having the Holy Spirit indwelling Them...” .....you got that Spirit in you? You are “ Born Again”..... you are Saved.....
If you became Wise enough to “ live for Jesus” , your life will be blessed here on Earth and you will be given more Crowns by Jesus when He passes out Rewards on Judgement Day....it has Nothing to do with Salvation ....that was merely a result of you either receiving or rejecting a Gift......
Taking a verse “ out of context” to make something UNTRUE appear to be TRUE is where the problem lies..... it causes confusion that leads to erroneous Doctrines that leads to many things — all of them bad...if you want to base your Beliefs based on Untruths and Erroneous Conclusions have at it .....
“ Even if we are Unfaithful—- He Remains Faithful”.......God has Promised to “ finish the work that He started”.......
Big Time Sinners with lifestyles that Stink will be Saved .....They will be sweating it out, wanting to “ draw back” and they will feel guilt and shame when they stand before our Lord....they will not receive the Crown that Obedient Believers will obtain as being a part of those “ Eager” to see Him.....But they will be Saved.....
Nobody gets Saved by their Performance....good or bad.....did you put your Faith in the One that had the Perfect Performance? If you did “ that” ....you are Saved.....meagerly rewarded for Eternity , but Saved....” like a man that has narrowly escaped a house that was on fire” .....the Key Word in that statement being “ escaped”......
You “ could” say it, but you are Confused —- it’s a “ Confusion” caused by ignorant Teachers that preach “ False,Perverted gospels ” ..... they are “ Accursed” , according to Paul .....follow them and their lies at your own risk....your Types are “ Fallen From Grace” and don’t even know what that term means....read Galatians and gain some knowledge ....
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
If you are not struggling with sin you are not saved. The absence of the struggle shows you have not been converted at all and are still in the flesh. But for the saved person, sin is the enemy and he is constantly on guard against it. They can't go on sinning as they did when they were unconverted because God's seed dwell sin them (1 John 3:9). The unsaved person lives comfortably in it. That's how you can know if you are a child of God or not (1 John 3:10). John says don't be deceived about this (1 John 3:7).
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 3:8-15 is about loss of reward for your planting and watering according to whatever ministry you have been entrusted with and are to be faithful to. Lack of faithfulness and success in that calling will result in loss of reward when Jesus comes back, and so the minister of the gospel should be careful how he builds. He himself may be saved, but, because of his failure he will only be saved as one escaping a burning house. The passage has nothing to do with a person being able to live the unrepentant life of an unbeliever and still be saved when Jesus comes back. John said the person who does that is not a child of God.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
The Bible plainly says you can distinguish the saved person from the unsaved person by how they live:
"10 By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1 John 3:10
The Bible also plainly says that confidence that you will be saved on the day of judgment comes from being like Jesus in this life:
"17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him." 1 John 4:17
Last edited:
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Certainty of salvation comes from active, living faith that loves others. The person who does not have this should have doubts about their faith and seek to 'make their calling and election sure' by diligently seeking to be obedient to God's commands summarized in 'love your neighbor as yourself'.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
If that's what Paul meant by 1 Corinthians 12:3 then there would be no such thing as fake believers pretending to be believers. Paul said the faith that justifies is the faith that loves.
"All that matters is faith, expressed through love." Galatians 5:6
So you know you have the faith that justifies by if you live in obedience to God's commands to love others. That is the sign that you are saved and have the Holy Spirit in you:
"18Little children, let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth. 19And by this we will know that we belong to the truth" 1 John 3:18-19
That is how you examine yourself to see if you are in the faith and have the Holy Spirit inside of you and are ready to stand before Jesus at the coming judgment.
Last edited:
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Right. By their fruit you will know them. The love of God grows and shines through. If you have no faith in Christ, His live won't shine through you.
We participate and cooperate with His plan. Thise who ha e been given much faith, like Billy Graham for instance accomplish much. Onbiously he'll be getting more rewards than the rest of us. We have to do the beat with what God gives us. Our works are tested with fire and the works that done to promote God's kingdom (deeds to assist others in their spiritual path and growth) will be rewarded.
Worldly works, fleshly works mjxed with pride and selfishness will be burned up.
>From Ligonier Ministries:
(1 Cor 3:10-15) "Divine blueprint for spiritual construction --
The hard work of spiritual ministry can reap eternal rewards when we build wisely on the proper foundation"
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
That's not really what he's driving at in 1 Corinthians 3:8-15. Even if you built a house with pride and selfishness you've still built a house, nonetheless. What determines if the parts of the house you've built get burned up is if they are made of material that can withstand fire. If your work in the building of God results in genuine believers who can withstand the heat and fire of the coming judgment, you will receive a reward. If your work in the building of God results in fake believers who cannot withstand the heat and fire of the coming judgement you won't receive a reward. The laborer himself will be saved (assuming he is saved), but only as one barely escaping the flames of judgment, having been found to not be faithful to the calling he had in building the house of God. Paul is telling the Corinthians this so they can know that his motive is pure and that his gospel is correct and has every intention of realizing a reward for his labor among them. And so they can trust that he is telling them the truth as opposed to the false ministers among them leading them astray. He's stressing his responsibility to God to be a faithful and productive worker building the building of God.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
The eternal reward is the people that the worker ministers to that make it through the coming fires of judgment:
"19After all, who is our hope, our joy, our crown of boasting, if it is not you yourselves in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? 20You are indeed our glory and our joy." 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20
"13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward." 1 Corinthians 3:13-14
"13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward." 1 Corinthians 3:13-14
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Nobody EARNS their salvation by their performance. But we will all surely be judged as being known by Christ or not by our performance.
23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:23
That's not what I said, and what I said was about the passage we were discussion. This had to do with the gold silver, wood, hay, building materials, so the reference is in regards God's living temple, not whether there will be false converts.
How is it again that you are thinking that Paul and Appollos are building with people, those people being the gold or wood, silver or hay, gemstones or stubble?
One plants, another waters, God gives the increase. What you build with will pass through fire, if it's all burned, you'll be saved but as through fire, that is, escaping only with your life. Don't build division.
Much love!
LOL! Well, fortunately, what you or I think or say about God's purpose of election and His resulting work of salvation in His elect at the time of His appointing makes no difference. God determines His own purposes, and His purposes cannot be thwarted by anything or anyone. And once He has done this work in the person, it cannot be undone by anything or anyone. The mighty works of God are invincible. As Paul says in Romans 11:29, "The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Therefore, as far as any of us are concerned, it is what it is. All that remains is whether we accept it or not, which, again, makes no difference; it is what it is.
"OSASers"...
My goodness.Grace and peace to all.
Last edited:
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Because the building of God is composed of people, with Christ himself being the cornerstone of that building:
"5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house" 1 Peter 2:5
"20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. 21In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. " Ephesians 2:20-21
But if anyone builds this building with perishable people who will burn up like hay, wood and stubble in the judgment, the day of Christ's return will show their workmanship for what it is:"20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. 21In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. " Ephesians 2:20-21
"12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work." 1 Corinthians 3:12-13
"14Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame." Isaiah 47:14
"24Therefore, as a tongue of fire consumes the straw, and as dry grass shrivels in the flame, so their roots will decay and their blossoms will blow away like dust; for they have rejected the instruction of the LORD of Hosts and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel." Isaiah 5:24
"11You conceive chaff; you give birth to stubble. Your breath is a fire that will consume you.12The peoples will be burned to ashes, like thorns cut down and set ablaze." Isaiah 33:11-12
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Minister in such a way and with such a gospel so as to realize the reward. Because there is no reward for building up disobedient false believers in the body and building of Christ who won't make it through the coming purging by fire. So be careful how you build!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
God's building, God's field has falseness in it at this time in earth history. That falseness will be purged away by fire in the judgment. So be sure to plant and build up true, obedient believers - in faithfulness to whatever calling you have been entrusted with - who will make it through the fire and be a reward for you on the other side.
Similar threads
