Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Ronald David Bruno]

Satan LOVES OSAS! He wants our company in Hell "forever and ever".

That is funny. The idea that Satan loves anything is an oxymoron. God is LOVE. Satan is void of love, therefore cannot love. He hates all mankind.
Those who turn to God for forgiveness and believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose on the third day will be saved. Jesus promises that if we believe, we will be saved. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Or did you think He, Whi is the Author of our faith, gives the gift, and then takes it away? He knows all and does not reneg on His promise.
"Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us.
Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”) No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.
And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Rom. 8:34-39

Those who are uncertain of their salvation define their own faith incorrectly. It is likely the Holy Spirit has not confirmed His presence in them. When you realize God is living in you, you relaize that He has always been their for you and always will. I personally can't imagine any other kind of faith.
Hebrews 11:1
"Faith without works is dead" is James just saying, show me the works God has done through you. The fruit of the Spirit IS the fruit of God. He produces it. Certainly we cooperate. He enables to. He does not write your whole life story and then just pages before the ending crumble it up and toss it in the trash!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The "living temple" has conterfeit stones?

The kingdom of God has counterfeit believers in it in this age:

"41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. 42And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:41-42​

And, as we see, they will be purged by fire from the kingdom at the end of the age. This is the fire Paul is referring to in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15

"12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames."​

If your 'watering and planting' produces those who aren't made of what it takes to make it through the flames of the coming judgment you will lose reward - the reward of them entering the kingdom of God with you at the end of the age. That's why Paul said we need to be careful how we build. There's no reward waiting for the person who raises up people who won't make it through the coming judgement because they heard a flawed gospel and/or were taught false, misleading doctrines.

I would think the false Christians are false to us only, not to God, being part of His spiritual house.

Yes, they look like genuine plantings and stones of God to us, but to God they are weeds and tares, and wood, hay, or straw - things that get burned up and won't make it through the coming fire of judgement. The person who ministered to these people have no reward waiting on the other side for their labor in bringing them to the Lord. They themselves may be saved from the fire, but the people they ministered to will not be. That's why we need to be careful how we build.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Paul tells the Corinthian Christians, "Ye are God's building". I read this as a simple indicative statement, a propositional reality, that they are in fact God's building.

Yes, 'you' is plural. He is referring to the Corinthian church as a whole. But, as I've pointed out from Christ's own words, not all are genuine in the church and house of God. They will be purged from the house of God at the judgment, having been found to be made of wood, hay, and stubble and not made of that which can withstand the fire (gold, silver, and precious stones) when subjected to the fires of that coming judgment.

"41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25:41


"12If anyone (the worker in the field and building of God) builds on this foundation (Christ the cornerstone of the church) using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames." 1 Corinthians 3:12-15​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Every man's work will be made manifest . . . that is to say that everyone's converts will be shown true or false?

Yes. That's why Paul tells us to be careful how we build the building of God. If you're building hay, wood, and stubble into the building of God it will be burned up at the end of the age, and you will have no reward for your labor. So we need to be careful that we have an accurate gospel and minister in such a way that places genuine believers in the house of God able to withstand the coming fires of judgment.

Or is that to say that what everyone has done will be revealed for what it really is?

In terms of ministry, yes. False and misleading gospels and misguided doctrines will be revealed for what they are at the final judgment when they result in people going into the fire instead of into the kingdom at the final judgment. Perhaps even the minister himself if, as Paul points out, he has been in the business of destroying the building of God and not just ministering with an ineffective gospel and in an ineffective way (1 Corinthians 3:17).

 

[kcnalp]

Quite a Bold statement —- you got Chapter and Verse? I did.

Lots of Scripture!
2 Peter 2:20-22 (NKJV)
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

And lots more Scripture!

 

[kcnalp]

I appreciate OSASers saying I can NEVER be unsaved. Wish I could say the same for OSASers!

 

[kcnalp]

That is funny. The idea that Satan loves anything is an oxymoron. God is LOVE. Satan is void of love, therefore cannot love. He hates all mankind.
Those who turn to God for forgiveness and believe that Jesus died for our sins and rose on the third day will be saved. Jesus promises that if we believe, we will be saved. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Or did you think He, Whi is the Author of our faith, gives the gift, and then takes it away? He knows all and does not reneg on His promise.
"Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us.
Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”) No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.
And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Rom. 8:34-39

Those who are uncertain of their salvation define their own faith incorrectly. It is likely the Holy Spirit has not confirmed His presence in them. When you realize God is living in you, you relaize that He has always been their for you and always will. I personally can't imagine any other kind of faith.
Hebrews 11:1
"Faith without works is dead" is James just saying, show me the works God has done through you. The fruit of the Spirit IS the fruit of God. He produces it. Certainly we cooperate. He enables to. He does not write your whole life story and then just pages before the ending crumble it up and toss it in the trash!

Satan LOVES OSAS!

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Lots of Scripture!
2 Peter 2:20-22 (NKJV)
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

And lots more Scripture!

Typically, a verse taken out of context , just like ALL Bible verses that “ appear” to go against OSAS......Thus verse is not talking about Believers...it’s talking about lying False Prophets .....the Key to knowing that is using the complete context....go back to verse 15 and see that Peter is talking about scoundrels like Balaam..... Balaam was an evil man who knew the Truth and rejected it.....that is why he was used as an example to show what kind of people Peter is referring to.....he is talking about those who had been exposed to the Truth Of The Gospel and then Turned from it — Rejected it ! They are “ worse off” than those who never heard the Gospel.....They were “ Gospel Perverters” —- not Christians ...There are many ways to Pervert the Gospel.....the most common way is to Add to it because a Gospel Perverter believes that even if Jesus might be “ essential” to Salvation , He is just not “ Adequate” for Salvation......you have to make yourself “ Co-Savior” by providing your “ good works” .....You reject the Grace offered in the Gospel and return to the “ Vomit” of your self- Righteousness......

Believers are never “ dogs” or “ pigs” .....and Peter would never refer to them that way ......they are “ “Saints” are “ New Creations”..... A “ dog” would be a name for a false prophet .....like Balaam.....a true “ Pig” That was later killed by the Israelites .....his story is not analogous to Believers...

“ Text Without Context is Error”

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well, First Thessalonians 2:15-16, right? Judgment was placed upon those who hindered the preaching of the Gospel to the Gentiles. Obedience is not in view here, but rather their having attempted to thwart God's purposes, which cannot be done (Job 42:2). And God inflicted judgment upon them.


Well, I surely agree that it's not "baseless" at all, or "arbitrary." But what God's basis is in making the choices He makes are... unknown to us, really, except in the sense that it is for His own glory, which is the basis for everything He does. And this is exactly what Paul says there in Romans 9, that, as I said, God is the molder and we are the molded, God is the potter and we are the clay. And the potter can do with the clay whatever He wants, whether making one for honorable use or another for dishonorable use. He desires to show His wrath and make known His power, therefore enduring with much patience the one made for dishonorable use who has been prepared for destruction. And by this, He makes known the riches of His glory for the one created for honorable use and prepared beforehand for glory ~ Gentile as well as Jew (Romans 9:20-24).

Those Jews were vessels of wrath because they would not obey. Paul says they were lost for they would not obey the righteousness of God (Romans 10:3). So they were not lost/vessels of wrath due to a capricious, unconditional decree God made before the world began.

Roman 9:22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

Furthermore, the verse says God is "long suffering" with those vessels of wrath. Peter and Paul agree that the long suffering of God is salvation (2 Peter 3:15). Why would God be long suffering towards those disobedient Jews that they be saved if God already predetermined they be lost vessels of wrath? That creates a contradiction in the nature of God. Yet Paul's argument here being that the Jews could not accuse God of being unjust towards them in casting them off (Romans 11) when God was long patient with them that they obey and be saved. The verse is not saying God endured those He already predestined to be lost, such is an attack against the perfectly just nature of God.

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

If those Jews were predetermined before the world began to be lost vessels of wrath, then why was Jesus desiring they be saved under His wing? A contradiction. But if they were predetermined by God to be saved, then why did they stone and kill the prophets, reject Christ's salvation? More contradiction. The fact Jesus "would" but the Jews "would not" shows free will on part of the Jews in rejecting Christ, not due to a capricious, unconditional decree made for them by God before the world began.

Mark 10, the rich young ruler: if he were predetermined by God before the world began to be lost then why would he be coming to Christ seeking eternal life? How/why would he keep the law from his youth up if he were born lost, totally depraved unable to do what is right having no desire to be saved? Why would Jesus "love him" if God is supposed to "hate" those whom God predetermined to be lost as Esau? On the other hand if he were predetermined by God before the world began to be saved, then why did he turn away and reject the eternal life offered him by Christ? A contradiction. Obviously free will was involved not predetermined eternal decrees.

Romans 9 is about God's sovereignty over His creation in matters regarding salvation and who His elect are and are not. It does not say that we do not make choices regarding the salvation of God, but it does say that it depends on the will of God and whether he extends mercy/compassion to the individual (as Jacob) or not (as Esau). Regarding Jacob and Esau individually, He made this decision "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad... in order that His purpose of election might continue." As for conditions, the only condition He places on anyone is on Himself ~ His mercy, His compassion. As Paul says (Ephesians 1:3-14)

Romans 9 is not a discourse on Calvinism but Paul is disproving certain false beliefs the Jews held such as God had to choose them simply because they were descendents of Abraham. Paul uses Jacob and Esau to prove God does not have to base His choices/promises on physical descent hence Paul in Romans 9 is proving God was just and right in casting off elect people the Jews. The context is anti-Calvinistic in showing elect Jews being cast off and once non-elect Gentiles being grafted in.

God chose Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Israel to make a covenant of promise with, but the choice of Abraham and not Melchizedek did not mean automatic condemnation for Melchizedek or Ismael or Esau or Edom. The Gentiles were not of the chosen/elect to receive the covenant of promise, but that did not mean automatic condemnation for the Gentiles for God sent Jonah to the Gentiles in Nineveh so they could receive God's mercy (Jonah 3) Rahab was justified (James 2). Though the Jews were God's elect, most were lost while just a 'remnant' saved. Though all Jews were elect, this distinction between Jews that some were saved and other lost was due to personal free will choice of each individual Jew in either obeying God and be saved or disobey and be lost (Romans 9:32)...most Jews chose not to seek righteousness by faith. Hence Romans 9 is about salvation not being based upon physical descent but upon an obedient faith. No Calvinism to be found at all in Rom 9 but very anti-Calvinistic.

Ephesians 1:4-5 does not teach the Calvinistic idea of God unconditionally electing certain individuals before the world began to be saved. The Bible teaches corporate election...God foreknew a group that would be called "Christian" and those who use their free will to choose to be in this group make up the elect. Paul in the context speaks of "us" and "we"..God chose "us" (those who become Christians) IN HIM. So God's chose was not capricious or unconditional but God chooses those who are conditionally "in Him" and it takes obedience to be in Christ (a Christian). The context says nothing about God foreknowing certain individuals to be elect unconditionally but says God foreknew certain traits this predestined group would possess...."holy, without blame and in Christ". And anyone who chooses to obey the gospel and become a Christian will then possess these traits. Nowhere in the NT is any individual ever said to have possessed the traits unconditionally, randomly while in disobedience to God's will. Therefore those who choose not to be in this foreknown group will justly be condemned for THEIR own choice and not for a choice God made for them against their will which would be unjust on God's part. Acts of the Apostles 10:34-25 God is not a respecter of person but any person in any nation can choose to become a Christian and be of the elect. Yet if God chooses for man which will be or not be of the elect then that akes God a respecter of person and God then is culpable for the faithless lost.

And then:

(Ephesians 2:4-10)

How anyone can fail to conclude that man is responsible in any way for being granted salvation, or that receiving God's salvific grace or keeping it is unconditional on anything man may or may not do, is just... unfathomable. These conclusions are unavoidable and irrefutable. Thanks be to our great God.

Made us alive..those Ephesians who chose to obey the gospel in being water baptized are the ones made alive together with Christ, not done by a capricious decree of God for men thereby making God culpable for the lost. Salvation of those Ephesians involved God's grace and their faith and faith includes being baptized.
Eph 2:8-----------faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saves
1 Pet 3:21-------baptism >>>>>>>>>>>>> saves

The "not of works" refer to works of merit for if one could keep the law perfectly one would earn his salvation and therefore could boast of his perfect law keeping. Yet works of merit and obedience to God in being baptized are two completely different things. Nowhere in the Bible is obedience to God ever said to be a work of merit one could boast about.

The fact God created man in His image with free will whereby man chooses for himself to be saved or lost, then God can justly condemn men for their own free will choices. What is 'unfathomable' is God predetermining men to do wickedness then God punishing those men for the wickedness God forced upon them them to commit.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Satan LOVES OSAS!

Satan is the Father of lies always giving people doubts about their faith. It's sad that he has this effect on Christians. Fear is the opposite of faith. In Christ is the Light and there is no darkness. Those who do not have certainty about His promise, have weak faith. Like being out at sea in a dingy without a paddle tossing to and fro hoping you'll just drift to shore ... or maybe not.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Being born again is what determines whether or not a person will do the true works.

Just as not being born again determines that you will not do true works of righteousness. Ultimately, The absence of fruit means you're not born again, not born again and just not fruitful. In the end, being unfruitful means you're not born again and will not go into the kingdom, but rather burned up for the weed and fruitless branch and barren piece of ground, metaphorically speaking, that you are. There's no such thing as a fruitless born again person.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

the wood, hay and stubble, the fleshy people, not reborn, not spiritual, these will be burnt up with no reward to us, therefore don't bring these people into the church and in so doing causing division (the overall theme of this portion). Is that the idea?

(I don't remember if I answered this). Yes, people who are wood, hay and stubble at the coming of Christ will go to the left and into the fire, and whoever ministered the gospel to them will receive no reward for their labor of sharing the gospel with them. And those made of gold, silver, and precious stones (that which can withstand fire) will go to the right and into the kingdom.

All unsaved people are to be honored guests in our church meetings. But they are to be understood as unsaved guests and not part of the church and have no input whatsoever into the church.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Are you familiar with the story of “Lydia,the Seller Of Purple” in the Book Of Acts? It was written that God “ opened her heart “ to the Believing of the Gospel......Please tell me what would have happened to Lydia if immediately after God opened her heart , and she became a Saved Believer—- what would her fate have been if she was struck by lightning one Nano-Second after she became a Believer in the Gospel That Saves .....Thanking you in advance...

All people who are genuinely believing when they die will die saved.

For the vast majority of people who do not die one nano-second after they believe, they know that they have genuine faith by if they are living for Jesus or not.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I don’t see the relevance of you verse in regard to the subject.....could be “ my “ fault ....I was home- schooled....lol...

The point is you can not die in a lifestyle of unbelief and expect to be saved when Jesus comes back. You will not be saved. Your life shows that you aren't really a believer.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

“ Building Of God?” As an explanation for the quoted verse? This “ take” is more twisted than a Pretzel....it doesn’t even make sense.....how some choose to complicate what God has made simple never ceases to amaze...

"9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building." 1 Corinthians 3:9

↓↓↓

"19Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. 21In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit." Ephesians 2:19-22

"6But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are His house, if we hold firmlyc to our confidence and the hope of which we boast." Hebrews 3:6

"5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. " 1 Peter 2:5

11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work." 1 Corinthians 3:11-13​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

This is the old “ Back Loading” Of getting saved by your works.....seen it dozens of times.

No one earns salvation by doing good works. Good works are what shows that you have the faith that makes you righteous apart from the merit of works. The faith that justifies is the faith that shows itself through the obedience of love - "faith expressed through love" (Galatians 5:6). That is the faith that saves and why Jesus can and will use our lives to judge whether we go to the left and into the fire or to the right and into the kingdom (Matthew 25:31-46). You're not earning your entry into the kingdom by good works. You show by your works that you have the faith that saves (James 2:18).

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No sane man can say you are Saved by Works.

The only way a man is saved by works is his works show that he has the faith that saves. The faith is what makes you righteous and made worthy of the kingdom of God. Your works only show you to have been made righteous by faith.

- so one just says that you are not saved by works but if you don’t “ have” works, you are Lost.....quite clever.....quite subtle .....subtlety was Satan’s strength back in the Garden Of Eden.....we need to remember that....

I'm just saying what the Apostle John, and the author of Hebrews says. The person who is still living in the sinfulness of his unchanged, unrepentant, unbelieving life is not born again. And people who are not born again are not going to inherit the kingdom of God at the end of the age. Ain't gonna happen. That's hardly a subtle lie of the enemy, lol.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

God knows the Heart.....that will suffice.

If the heart is right, the works will be right.

"First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean." Matthew 23:26​

 

[kcnalp]

Typically, a verse taken out of context , just like ALL Bible verses that “ appear” to go against OSAS......Thus verse is not talking about Believers...it’s talking about lying False Prophets .....the Key to knowing that is using the complete context....go back to verse 15 and see that Peter is talking about scoundrels like Balaam..... Balaam was an evil man who knew the Truth and rejected it.....that is why he was used as an example to show what kind of people Peter is referring to.....he is talking about those who had been exposed to the Truth Of The Gospel and then Turned from it — Rejected it ! They are “ worse off” than those who never heard the Gospel.....They were “ Gospel Perverters” —- not Christians ...There are many ways to Pervert the Gospel.....the most common way is to Add to it because a Gospel Perverter believes that even if Jesus might be “ essential” to Salvation , He is just not “ Adequate” for Salvation......you have to make yourself “ Co-Savior” by providing your “ good works” .....You reject the Grace offered in the Gospel and return to the “ Vomit” of your self- Righteousness......

Believers are never “ dogs” or “ pigs” .....and Peter would never refer to them that way ......they are “ “Saints” are “ New Creations”..... A “ dog” would be a name for a false prophet .....like Balaam.....a true “ Pig” That was later killed by the Israelites .....his story is not analogous to Believers...

“ Text Without Context is Error”

Out of context? Do you ever take Scripture "out of context"? Of course you do! Does that mean you don't believe it?

 

[kcnalp]

Satan is the Father of lies always giving people doubts about their faith. It's sad that he has this effect on Christians. Fear is the opposite of faith. In Christ is the Light and there is no darkness. Those who do not have certainty about His promise, have weak faith. Like being out at sea in a dingy without a paddle tossing to and fro hoping you'll just drift to shore ... or maybe not.

I appreciate you saying I can NEVER be lost. Wish I could say the same for OSASers!