Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Eternally Grateful]

The church was nothing but Jews until Paul's missionary journeys began.

The first 8,000+ Christians were Jews that came to Jerusalem for Pentecost. Remember that story?

and?

And paul went to the jews on saterday when he went on his journeys.

that does not mean they kept meeting on Saterday when jews met..

 

[ScottA]

No Scripture? Of course not! There isn't any to support OSAS! NONE!

I specifically said "The entire word of God."

You speak like one in the garden, misrepresenting what is said.

 

[Taken]

Are you sure you want to stick that answer on Judgment Day?

THAT answer “NO” on judgement day... LOL

Sure. Did I Fail to to Keep my commitment... NO!

And, what’s your answer....LOL never mind.
Your lack of statement of faith...and
Your signature;

Belief in the eternal Hell is not required for residency therein.

And your posts fixated on Satan,
And your posts fixated on how to back out of a Commitment;
are good indicators of your standing.

Not impressed.

 

[Happy Trails]

Under the law means SUBJECT TO, (required to) Obey Mosaic LAWS.

The Curse of the Law means, the PENALTIES (negative consequences) for Violating the Mosaic Law.

That's close:
Under the Law means subject to the punishment. "Required to obey" only means anything if there is a consequence for disobedience.

The curse of the Law is legal justification YHVH has for cursing those who disobey. YHVH could not punish someone without warning. That would make him a tyrant.

Deuteronomy 11:26-28 says there is a blessing that comes from obedience and a curse that comes from disobedience.

We have been redeemed from the curse. Now, all we can get is blessed.

 

[Taken]

I specifically said "The entire word of God."

You speak like one in the garden, misrepresenting what is said.

Not a big mystery who he is promoting.

 

[Happy Trails]

Pagan sex festivals?

Why do you think the dates for Christmas and Easter were selected to be the new holidays of Christianity?

 

[Grailhunter]

Why do you think the dates for Christmas and Easter were selected to be the new holidays of Christianity?

I do not think anything....I know.

The Bishops of Christianity assembled at the Council of Nicaea...circa 325 AD to set the date for the observance of Christ's resurrection.

The history and the date of Christmas and who set it is a little fuzzy and a long story.

If you are getting at why Emperor Constantine put Christian holidays and Pagan holidays on the same day.....it was to reduce the number of days that the empire was shutdown for religious holidays....

If not the Pagans would not be celebrating on the days Christians were celebrating and Christians would not be celebrating on days that the Pagans were celebrating. That would cause tensions.

So there is no correct answer for Protestants....Protestants did not arrive on the scene until the 1500's

 

[Taken]

That's close:
Under the Law means subject to the punishment. "Required to obey" only means anything if there is a consequence for disobedience.

I would say what I said is “spot on”.
Under the law, is obligation to obey the law.
*The Law, was umpteen do this, don’t do that, consequences.
* Do this, is positive law, expect a positive consequence.
* Don’t do that, is also positive law, Warning, to expect a negative consequence.
* Curse Law, is negative law, the exacting, or otherwise dolling out the negative consequences for violating the positive law.

[/QUOTE]
We have been redeemed from the curse. Now, all we can get is blessed.[/QUOTE]

Okay. I was never subject to Mosaic Law Positive or Negative.

But I did learn from Mosaic Law, what KIND of Behavior God accepted and what KIND of Behavior God rejected...regarding a relationship between A man and God.

Further within Mosaic Laws, are PRECEPTS, which I also found useful that God taught regarding Behaviors between and among men...
Of How to have a good or poor outcome BETWEEN men...
Friend, Stranger or Enemy.

Me being included in being a manKIND of creature, the PRECEPTS, in the OT, I found beneficial for myself.

So while I was not UNDER Mosaic Law, to ever be relieved of the punishment of Negative Curse (punitive) Laws......the OT Knowledge of what God Accepts to have a relationship with Him and the Knowledge of what Behaviors God promotes among men...
Is for my own (un-obligatory) interest and benefit, per my own choosing.

 

[Happy Trails]

I already explained it to you.

CURSED is the one who does not CONFIRM ( you agree with) and OBEY (to obey ) EVERY WORD.

Paul said NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW. as it is written CURSED IS THE ONE WHO DOES NOT OBEY EVERY WORD.

The penalty of sin is death. That is the curse of the law. Eternal death (separation) is what those who are under the law can expect.

With this as the GUIDE of what obeying the law means. Unless you claim to be perfect. YOU DO NOT KEEP THE LAW.

As paul says, For all have sinned and fallen short. Short of what? Gods standard. The law is just a taste of what the standard is and we can not even keep that.

Paul said obeying the law is how one is made perfect? Where? Did Paul contradict himself??

Justified literally means righteous (the same greek word) We are justified (declaired righteous) By faith. Not by works.

no matter how you spin it. You will never justify yourself you will never be good enough. You have already failed and will continue to fail

You explained what you think it is. I confirm and agree with everything in the Law. The fact that I have EVER sinned means I am guilty of everything.

So, I rely on the blood of Jesus to redeem me from the curse of the Law. I am no longer subject to the penalty. Now, the reason I obey the Law is because it is the will of my Father that I obey him. He promised to BLESS me if I obey. Now, you may have too much blessing from YHVH. I want more. Jesus said the people that did not do His Father's will were people He didn't even know. They were using His Name and casting out demons. But, they were "workers without the Law."

John said obeying the Law is easy. 1 John 5:3

Is it harder to observe the Sabbath instead of Sunday? No.
Is it harder to observe the feast of tabernacles instead of Christmas? No.
Is it harder to observe Passover instead of Easter? No.

So, why do Christians keep saying it's so hard, or that no one can do it?

2 Timothy 3:15-17
What Scriptures did Timothy have from his youth? He had the OT. Paul says the OT is profitable for "doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

Getting justified, or "declared righteous" for the purpose of wiping away our sin is not an excuse to ignore what God says sin is, and go and do it.

Jesus said we should seek the Father's righteousness, not our own. The Father's righteousness is obeying the Law. The person who establishes his OWN standard for righteousness is "self-righteous."

We will be judged according to our works. Revelation 20:12-13.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Walking righteously requires a guide. That guide is grace. Grace teaches us to walk godly, not walk in rebellion.
Titus 2:11-12

Grace overlooks error, but does not enable disobedience.

 

[Happy Trails]

I do not think anything....I know.

The Bishops of Christianity assembled at the Council of Nicaea...circa 325 AD to set the date for the observance of Christ's resurrection.

The history and the date of Christmas and who set it is a little fuzzy and a long story.

If you are getting at why Emperor Constantine put Christian holidays and Pagan holidays on the same day.....it was to reduce the number of days that the empire was shutdown for religious holidays....

If not the Pagans would not be celebrating on the days Christians were celebrating and Christians would not be celebrating on days that the Pagans were celebrating. That would cause tensions.

So there is no correct answer for Protestants....Protestants did not arrive on the scene until the 1500's

So, the Bishops of Christianity CREATED a bunch of holidays and put them on the days of pagan festivals.

If they had known what they were doing, they would know that kind of thing is strictly forbidden.

But, they didn't because they were pagans who were now in charge of Rome's version of Christianity.

The feasts of Leviticus 23 are the prophetic proof that Jesus is the Messiah. Without them, He's just another self-proclaimed prophet.

 

[Happy Trails]

and?

And paul went to the jews on saterday when he went on his journeys.

that does not mean they kept meeting on Saterday when jews met..

Actually, it DOES mean that.

 

[Happy Trails]

I would say what I said is “spot on”.
Under the law, is obligation to obey the law.
*The Law, was umpteen do this, don’t do that, consequences.
* Do this, is positive law, expect a positive consequence.
* Don’t do that, is also positive law, Warning, to expect a negative consequence.
* Curse Law, is negative law, the exacting, or otherwise dolling out the negative consequences for violating the positive law.

We have been redeemed from the curse. Now, all we can get is blessed.[/QUOTE]

Okay. I was never subject to Mosaic Law Positive or Negative.

But I did learn from Mosaic Law, what KIND of Behavior God accepted and what KIND of Behavior God rejected...regarding a relationship between A man and God.

Further within Mosaic Laws, are PRECEPTS, which I also found useful that God taught regarding Behaviors between and among men...
Of How to have a good or poor outcome BETWEEN men...
Friend, Stranger or Enemy.

Me being included in being a manKIND of creature, the PRECEPTS, in the OT, I found beneficial for myself.

So while I was not UNDER Mosaic Law, to ever be relieved of the punishment of Negative Curse (punitive) Laws......the OT Knowledge of what God Accepts to have a relationship with Him and the Knowledge of what Behaviors God promotes among men...
Is for my own (un-obligatory) interest and benefit, per my own choosing.[/QUOTE]

If you claim, "I did learn from Mosaic Law, what KIND of Behavior God accepted and what KIND of Behavior God rejected...regarding a relationship between A man and God," and you are still trying to justify disobedience, then your claim is demonstrably false.

 

[Grailhunter]

So, the Bishops of Christianity CREATED a bunch of holidays and put them on the days of pagan festivals.

If they had known what they were doing, they would know that kind of thing is strictly forbidden.

But, they didn't because they were pagans who were now in charge of Rome's version of Christianity.

The feasts of Leviticus 23 are the prophetic proof that Jesus is the Messiah. Without them, He's just another self-proclaimed prophet.

Like I said there is no correct answer for Protestants.
If it wasn't for Emperor Constantine Christianity might not have survived.
Still he was an Emperor of an empire that was both Christian and Pagan. It was a transitional period and the empire eventually became Christian. Of course there is no way to stop the criticism, particularly since the Catholics were responsible for so much corruption and so many atrocities. But then the Protestants are not going to admit that splitting Christ's church into 30,000 denominations was a serious offense.

But, they didn't because they were pagans who were now in charge of Rome's version of Christianity.

Do you think you are Jew? Most of our ancestry goes back to the Pagans. And now we have 30,000 Protestant versions of Christianity.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You explained what you think it is.

I explained what Moses, God (who told moses to write it down) and paul said it was.

Not what I think it is.

You should be careful in accusing.

I confirm and agree with everything in the Law. The fact that I have EVER sinned means I am guilty of everything.

So, I rely on the blood of Jesus to redeem me from the curse of the Law. I am no longer subject to the penalty. Now, the reason I obey the Law is because it is the will of my Father that I obey him. He promised to BLESS me if I obey. Now, you may have too much blessing from YHVH. I want more. Jesus said the people that did not do His Father's will were people He didn't even know. They were using His Name and casting out demons. But, they were "workers without the Law."

John said obeying the Law is easy. 1 John 5:3

Is it harder to observe the Sabbath instead of Sunday? No.
Is it harder to observe the feast of tabernacles instead of Christmas? No.
Is it harder to observe Passover instead of Easter? No.

So, why do Christians keep saying it's so hard, or that no one can do it?

2 Timothy 3:15-17
What Scriptures did Timothy have from his youth? He had the OT. Paul says the OT is profitable for "doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

Getting justified, or "declared righteous" for the purpose of wiping away our sin is not an excuse to ignore what God says sin is, and go and do it.

Jesus said we should seek the Father's righteousness, not our own. The Father's righteousness is obeying the Law. The person who establishes his OWN standard for righteousness is "self-righteous."

We will be judged according to our works. Revelation 20:12-13.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Walking righteously requires a guide. That guide is grace. Grace teaches us to walk godly, not walk in rebellion.
Titus 2:11-12

Grace overlooks error, but does not enable disobedience.

ahh, the excuse my sin nonsense.

Unless you are sinning, You excuse your sin also.

There is a difference between acknowledging I will continue to sin, and wanting to live in sin, John said a child of God can not live in sin.

So when you say salvation can be lost.. Well something is seriously wrong

we are back to the begining

Paul said I have been and am saved, Did Paul lie?

Jesus said I will never die, I will live forever, I have eternal (not conditional life) and will be raised. Did Jesus lie?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Actually, it DOES mean that.

well thanks for your OPINION

But I want fact..

The sabaath was a day of rest. Not a day of worship.

I take the day of rest. and strive because it is for my benefit.

What days I worship in church is no concern to you and God does not care

 

[praise_yeshua]

Regularly.

So you're an practicing Orthodox Jew?

 

[ScottA]

If you claim, "I did learn from Mosaic Law, what KIND of Behavior God accepted and what KIND of Behavior God rejected...regarding a relationship between A man and God," and you are still trying to justify disobedience, then your claim is demonstrably false.

OSAS is not a "justify disobedience" doctrine--not at all.

It is rather, the recognition of all that Christ has done, which is faith in Him to finish the good work that He has begun, rather than lacking such faith and considering all the warnings of holding out unto the end were for them...when they were not--not exactly. Those warnings were indeed to them and to all--but not as you seem to believe. Yes, they apply to them--but only to the end of themselves--to the End, whom is Christ.

Those who understand this are those who have heard what the Spirit says, while those who have not heard continue to attempt in the flesh, what the flesh cannot attain...except "in Christ." Which, if one insists that it not be until the flesh is no more--that is exactly what such a one will receive. But such is to "grieve the Spirit."

This is what Paul referred to by "rightly dividing the word of truth." In other words, the scriptures--the gospel, is written to both those born of the flesh and also those born [again] of the Spirit. But "what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?" These things which you hold as one, God has intended to "divide", doing so daily since the first evening and morning. This is that counsel of which Paul spoke--that we should come into one accord with the work of God, rather than hold to the ways of this world and the desires of the flesh.

 

[praise_yeshua]

“we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;” (2 Thessalonians 1:4-6)

So you're experiencing persecutions and tribulations?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I see a lot of eisegesis in your posts and your theology does basically leave everyone doomed! “Sin all you want” is the common straw man argument from the NOSAS camp. I believe God’s word in Romans 8:30-39, but apparently you don’t.

Yes, I do see OSAS as a “sin all you want doctrine” because according to OSAS, no sin can make you unsaved. Also, there are different levels of justifying sin or evil and God is not in approval of either one. Remember, it only took one sin for the Fall to happen and not many sins (Which you seem to ignore).

Also, it's not a strawman argument to say that OSAS is teaching that “you can sin all you want” because you gave a like reputation to a particular poster in this thread when they said, I quote:

“Your not going to get to heaven because you do not commit those sins. And they are not going to hell because they commit those sins.
Christ is the only means to heaven, Not how good or bad someone is.” ​

~ Quote by: Eternally Grateful - Post #959

Note: I screen captured the post just in case you decide to retract your like rep that shows that you support a person who thinks OSAS is teaching salvation is not in any way about how good or bad someone is or because you do not commit certain sins (i.e. you can sin all you want).​

As for your quote of Romans 8:30-39:

This in no way supports your false belief in OSAS.

Romans 8:30 says, “...whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified...”

Notice the word called in Romans 8:30. Does that mean that all that are called are going to be justified?

No. Jesus says, “many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:14).

Also, the word justified in Romans 8:30 is referring to not only how we are justified by faith, but it how we are justified by our works, too. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).

James 2:21
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?”

As I mentioned to you before, Romans 11:22 says we are to continue in His goodness otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off).

So Romans 8:30-39 cannot be interpreted as meaning that GOD will force save you in this life because you were once saved in the past by His grace.

You sound like an advocate for “sinless perfection.”

Christians have different views on what Sinless Perfection means. I don't think Sinless Perfection is exclusively dealing with our salvation. Sinless Perfection is more about putting away sins that are non-death sins. I mentioned this to you before, but you appeared to not be able to grasp what I was talking about.

Again, your labels do not exist and nor are they descriptive to any truth found in the Bible.

Says you.

No. So says the Bible because there is no label or description in the Bible that mentions your Type Two Works Salvation.

The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14). Without justification, there is no sanctification. This is not about striving to obtain "enough" personal holiness (practically speaking) in order to merit salvation based on our performance, which does seem to tickle your ears.

I am not entirely in disagreement with what Theologian's call “Justification.” I personally prefer to use the term “Saved by God's grace through faith” instead. But we obviously don't agree entirely on what Justification involves. The Bible teaches...

Salvation by God's grace through faith is the first aspect of a believer's salvation and it is a process of salvation that is without works because it is based upon God's mercy and grace.

The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14). Without justification, there is no sanctification. This is not about striving to obtain "enough" personal holiness (practically speaking) in order to merit salvation based on our performance, which does seem to tickle your ears.
In the very next verse (Hebrews 12:15) we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. That puts things into perspective here.

In Hebrews 12:14: The author of Hebrews is writing to Hebrew Christians and he is telling them to follow after holiness and to make peace with all men (without which no man shall see the Lord). In Hebrews 12:15 is an admonishment for us to look after other brethren diligently so that no believer fails the grace of God. In your view: A person cannot fail the grace of God but they are Once Saved Always Saved. That's why what you believe is not consistent with the plain reading of Scripture.

Anyways, you miss the point of Hebrews 12:14. It should not exist in the Bible if grace through faith (a belief alone in Jesus as our Savior) is all that saves. Hebrews 12:14 is teaching two things we need to do in order to see the Lord.

#1. Follow after holiness.
#2. Make peace with all men.​

Your not doing that and there is no seeing the Lord. So this shows that Once Saved Always Saved is not true. You have to work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). 2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

The book of Jude describes turning the grace of God into a license for immorality as not descriptive of genuine believers.

What's the difference between them and what you believe?
Do you believe the Prodigal Son was saved while he was living it up with prostitutes?

Back to “holier than thou” and “sinless perfection.”

Sinless Perfection is dealing with putting away non-death sins.
Thus Sinless Perfect is not a salvation issue.
But Christians do need to overcome death sins (or sins that lead to the Lake of Fire).

As for your statement: “Holier than thou”:
Again this statement is meaningless if the Bible does in fact teach that holy living (Sanctification) is a requirement for salvation. See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

Note: I will strive to reply to the rest of what you wrote at a later time (Lord willing).

 

[amigo de christo]

Feel better after you tirade of words for that is ALL you said.
I stand by, in and for God's word.
I have never, to my knowledge attacked the person behind their belief in OSAS!

AS A MATTER OF FACT, PLEASE SOMEONE WHO IS HUMBLE,SUBMITTED TO GOD, AND WALKS IN HIS WORD EXPLAIN THE DOCTRINE OF OSAS.
NOT BY PICKING OUT KEY PHRASES BUT FROM HIS WORD IN CONTEXT THAT YOU CAN NEVER FAIL AND BE REJECTED BY GOD OR YOURSELF REJECT HIM AFTER SALVATION.

Do NOT use the pat answer well " they never were of us nor no man can pluck them out of my hand, not lost none the Father has given me".......
Thanks!

Paul never taught it . They simply taught that FAITH in CHRIST does save one
and they also taught the church to CONTINUE TO THE END or you will be cast out .
To teach that does not mean our faith is NOT IN CHRIST . IF our faith is IN CHRIST then we would take HIM at His every word .
See i have watched men who preached OSAS go around every scripture and reminder that i bring them from the scriptures .
SEEING it not for what it says any longer because they have been trained by men who twisted all those reminders
by saying OH they cant mean that cause OSAS . WHEN IN TRUTH paul did mean what HE said .
HE said not be high minded but to fear for IF GOD did not spare the natural branches you had better take heed
lest he also spare not you . BEHOLD both the goodness of GOD and the severity of GOD .
GOODNESS towards you , WHOSE FAITH IS IN JESUS , IF YE CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS otherwise YE GONNA BE CAST OUT
just like the unbeliving jews had been . AND that also if they continued not in unbelief they could be graffted back in .
SO YOU SEE , WE REALLY DO have to continue in CHRIST . AND what was the thing paul said that could harden a heart .
SIN . Exhort one another daily LEST YE become hardened THROUGH the deciefulness of SIN
for we are made partakers of CHRIST if WE DO WHAT , Exactly to THE END . THEY all t aught it .
JESUS even told one of the seven churches Sardis i think , That it would be heavily persecuted
But those who endure TO THE END ..............exactly .
SO my point is , IF JESUS said it , HOW COME WHEN I repeat it , does OSAS say I HAVE NO FAITH .
WHEN in truth , MY FAITH IS IN JESUS , WHO FIRST SAID IT and so did the apostels .
Many , perhaps not all , in the OSAS crowd accuse folks like me of having no faith nor trust in CHRIST
just beause i say YE MUST BE HEARERS and DOERS of the WORD , THAT YE MUST CONTINUE IN HIM TO THE END .
IF the CHRIST JESUS warned and the apostles did too , THEN WHY is it a lack of faith WHEN I WARN with the very same reminders .