Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Titus]

I asked this question: "Danthemailman give me scripture that justification means to outwardly show others you are righteous. That is taught nowhere in scripture".

Now, your response to my question, has nothing to do do with my question.Because it has nothing to do with Mans justification.
Danthemailman, you failed to give an answer to James' teaching in James 2:24.

You either do not understand what justification is or from ignorance, do not see the passages on Jesus being seen as justified/ righteous by men, and how men are justified do not equate!

There is no parallel to Jesus being "justified by men seeing His righteousness " And James' teaching on men being justified by works.

I already have but here it is again.

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make Him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. *Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/proved to be right by her deeds."

I will first address Matthew 12:37,
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.
Danthemailman, Are you not aware you took this passage out of context in order to fit your error on Justification by works as taught by James in James 2:24?

Are you aware what you are doing to the meaning of justification?
You are either from ignorance or intentionally changing the definition of justification,
By trying to equate Matthew 12:37 with Luke 7:29.

Sir, these two verses are not teaching the same principle.

Here is what you have misunderstood,

Who is the one justifying men as being just/righteous in Matthew 12:37?
Answer: God!

God is justifying men by their words/deeds!

God is justifying Abraham in James 2:21,
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar

Now pay attention to what you are teaching me, Danthemailman!

You are teaching that James is teaching MEN, ARE JUSTIFYING ABRAHAM BY SEEING HIS WORKS.

You are again teaching this in Matthew 12:37!

No Sir, you are giving a false definition of justification once again!
Taking passages out of context to fit your misinterpretation is called,
Eisegesis.
The very thing you are guilty of, you have falsely accused me.

So, I will be expecting an apology from you, Danthemailman!

You claim that James' teaching on justification by works is when Men see our works, they declare us as just individuals.
You have tried to prove this by using your proof text of,
Matthew 12:37.

Here is why you are wrong

Who is the one doing the Justifying in Matthew 12:37?

Men or Jesus?

Read the passage again,
Matthew 12:36-37
-But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give an account of it in the day of judgement.

-37 For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned.

You have men seeing the good works of other men in Matthew 12:37,
Being the ones justifying other mens good words/deeds!

That is perverting the context of Matthew 12:37,
Danthemailman!

It is GOD WHO IS JUSTIFYING MEN BY THEIR WORDS not men in Matthew 12:37.

You have failed to rightly divide the word of God, 2Timothy 2:15.

You continue to make errors with your chosen passages.

Now I will address,
Danthemailman's usage of Luke 7:29,
The baptism of Jesus Christ by John the Baptist.

First obvious error of trying to use Jesus as equating to the justification of mens works by James in James chapter 2 is,...

Jesus never sinned!

Jesus does not need to be justified!
Men need to be justified!

Danthemailman do you not understand what justification is?
Justification is when men have their sins which make them guilty before God,
Pardoned/ no longer condemned!

So, Jesus being seen as justified by men.
Men seeing Jesus as righteous.
Has nothing to do with mens justification.
Has nothing to do with James teaching on men being justified by their works, James 2:24.

Therefore Luke 7:29 does not give any proof of your false interpretation of justification by works in James 2:24.

Luke 7:29,
-And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John.

All this is teaching is, the people could see that Jesus was just. Not that men justified him.
No man can justify God!

Next proof text Danthemailman used is,
Matthew 11:19,
-For the Son of man came eating and drinking and they say,
Look a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!
But wisdom is justified by her children.

Same error as using Luke 7:29.

Danthemailman Jesus Christ cannot be used to explain justification by works in James 2:24.

Only men need justification.
Only those who have sinned, need to be justified!

Only God can justify men!
Men cannot justify God!

Jesus is sinless.
This is what Matthew 11:19 is teaching.

Because Jesus is perfect in all His ways,
This is way men see Him as just.

Do men see other men as perfect in all their ways?
Is this what James is teaching how men justify other men because they see their perfect without any sin?

Danthemailman, Jesus does not equate with our justification by works taught in James chapter 2.

You have failed to prove,
Justification in James is,
Men seeing other mens works, therefore men justify men because of their good deeds.

It is true that Christians can be seen as righteous people by other men because of how the live righteous, godly, holy, lives.

Other men may begin to glorify God by a Christian who lives for Jesus.

But when James teaches we are justified by works and not by faith only,
James 2:24.

James is teaching GOD JUSTIFIES US BY OUR WORKS NOT MEN!

The proof text of what the true meaning of James' teaching on justification by works is,
James 2:21,
-Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar.

God justified Abraham because of his obedient works!

Danthemailman's teaching is wrong,
Dan teaches Men see Abraham's works and men justify Abraham ie see him as righteous.

That is false doctrine taught from James 2!
You are putting words in James' mouth, Danthemailman.

Fact: no man has the ability to justify another man.
Only God justifies men by their obedient works,
Romans 3:26,
-To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one(men) who has faith in Jesus.

 

[mailmandan]

No, according to scriptures!

“By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name” (Romans 1:5)

You have to obey the faith.

Not have true biblical faith to obtain obedience.

And this isn’t taught anywhere in scripture, “having true biblical faith results in obedience”. It’s just more vain talk from vain talkers.

Shorten up your posts, because if your doctrine were biblical it wouldn’t take that many words to explain it.

Here is yet another passage of scripture that works-salvationists use in a vain effort to try and support salvation by works. In Romans 1:5, we read - Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name. The NIV reads - the obedience that comes from faith.

Now although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God.

*Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2) not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/works.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

The NIV reads

Corrupt Modern Bibles are often quoted by those in error. How appropriate.

More vain speeches I see.

Take heed!

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” (Romans 11:21-23)

Of course the Once Saved Always Saved disciple will:

A) Say, A true believer will continue in his goodness!

B) Say, You are using this out of context! This is talking about [insert any theological mumbo jumbo here]

C) Completely ignore your post and proceed with his Once Saved Always Saved talking points.

 

[mailmandan]

Corrupt Modern Bibles are often quoted by those in error. How appropriate.

More vain speeches I see.

Take heed!

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” (Romans 11:21-23)

Of course the Once Saved Always Saved disciple will:

A) Say, A true believer will continue in his goodness!

B) Say, You are using this out of context! This is talking about [insert any theological mumbo jumbo here]

C) Completely ignore your post and proceed with his Once Saved Always Saved talking points.

It's works-salvationists who interpret passages of scripture out of context and end up with work-righteousness mumbo jumbo. I almost forgot you are a KJV only fanatic. I already previously covered Romans 11:21-23 in a different post. Try and keep up.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

already previously covered Romans 11:21-23 in a different post.

Yes, under one of those A,B, or C categories I just posted. But in your case probably all three combined!

Way ahead of you friend!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Danthemailman, give me scripture that teaches justification means to outwardly show others you are righteous.
That is taught nowhere in scripture.

You need to stop making up definitions for the word justification.
You are inserting your ideas into the text.
You are speaking for James. Let James speak for himself.
James 2:24
James taught faith alone does not justify men.
Only faith and obedience to God, can one be justified by God, James 2:21
Hebrews 5:8-9
Only the saved are justified.
James makes works a condition that must be met in order to be justified.
Therefore no one is saved says James unless one has a obedient faith.

You need to show where James taught faith alone is not dead.
Give the passage.

While I do not agree with Dan, I believe he is getting this line of thinking from James 2:18 that says,

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith,
and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works,
and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:18).​

Some “Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationists” will erroneously say that this is in reference to being righteous only before men and not God. But if we skip back to the previous chapter, we know in context that this in reference to our moral conduct in having salvation with GOD.

James 1:12
“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried,
he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.”

James 1:21-22
“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness,
and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”

So this clarifies even more the point of James 2:17 in that it says faith without works is dead in relation to GOD.

James 2:17
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”

And so when we read James 2:18, it is merely an added point to show the necessity of works or the symbiotic nature between faith and works.

If I am correct in Dan’s understanding, he believes James 2:18 is a definition for “works justification” which he believes is different than the kind of “justification” that is related to faith (a belief alone) (i.e. belief alone justification).

But this kind of interpretation does not work because the same word “justification” is used for both faith and works in James 2:24.

We know that a “Perpetual Belief Alone-ism” would not have saved Noah. Noah and his family needed to obey God’s instructions in order to be saved from the global flood. If Noah, and his family just sat around and believed and built no Ark, they would have perished. So those who propose that we can do nothing but believe in Jesus to be saved do not really understand and accept what the Bible plainly says. They want the easy way that exists only in their own mind and a handful of verses taken out of context to the rest of the Bible. For Jesus says strive to enter the straight gate (See: Luke 13:24).

If man made history is correct on these words of Luther, he called the book of James,

“an epistle of straw.”

Many who look up to Luther as a great man are those who hold to Perpetual Belief Alone-ism. It’s no surprise that they try to distort, or downplay, or out right eliminate the book of James.

 

[Titus]

It's works-salvationists who interpret passages of scripture out of context and end up with work-righteousness mumbo jumbo. I almost forgot you are a KJV only fanatic. I already previously covered Romans 11:21-23 in a different post. Try and keep up.

See my response to your poor choice of passages to defend your misinterpretation of James 2:24.

James 2:24,
-You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Question, who is doing the justifying Danthemailman?

God or man?

Question:
When is man justified?
Before obedience to Jesus ie faith only.
Or
After faith and works of obedience to Jesus?

Read James 2:20

 

[Titus]

While I do not agree with Dan, I believe he is getting this line of thinking from James 2:18 that says,

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith,
and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works,
and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:18).

Yes you are correct,
James most certainly teaches that godly living,
Does in fact show others our righteous living by our works.

But James 2:24 is teaching HOW we are justified.
James most certainly teaches we are justified by our works not by faith only.

Danthemailman, perverts this passage to fit his false doctrine of salvation by no works just belief.

Danthemailman's, work around this passage is to claim,
This is not literal. But figurative speech by James,

In a figurative way James is supposedly teaching,
That by our works men see our faith and justify us as righteous.

He tries to tie James 2:18 to James 2:24 as an outward sign of our faith to others.

He is only partly right.
Right with James 2:18.
Wrong with,
James 2:24.
As I taught him, only God is the justifier of men.
That is the true teaching of James in verses,
James 2:21 and James 2:24.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, under one of those A,B, or C categories I just posted. But in your case probably all three combined!

Way ahead of you friend!

You remain in unbelief.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

When encountered with the many verses that refute OSAS, the OSAS Proponent will throw aside these many verses as referring to unbelievers and not believers (out of context) in order to protect their preferred pet doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.

Here is a good article for any truth seeker.

Scriptures that prove OSAS is not the truth at all.

It will explain the false misunderstandings or claims of OSAS proponents misuse of Scripture when they are faced with verses that refute OSAS.
I would encourage any believer fighting against OSAS to read this article. The grammar is not always the best, but they provide some great explanations that defend the truth of God’s Word in what it plainly says. It explains away many of the OSAS Proponents false misunderstandings on verses that they believe is in reference to unbelievers.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

It's works-salvationists who interpret passages of scripture out of context

We are not robots. You aren’t stuck in obedience because you have true biblical faith. That’s nonsense!

Or why is this written:

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:” (2 Peter 1:10)

And why must we:

“beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith” (2 Peter 1:5)

Because:

“if ye do these things, ye shall never fall” (2 Peter 1:10)

Once Saved Always Saved is so easily refuted with scripture that it’s mind boggling how it prevails in Christianity.

 

[Titus]

James 2:21,
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Danthemailman's interpretation of James 2:24 is disproved by James 2:21.

The reason is, No man was present when Abraham was going to sacrifice his Son Isaac on the altar to God.
Abraham was doing obedient works.
Only God and His angels were present.
So, only God justified Abraham by His works.

No man was there to observe Abraham's work of faith.
This is why Dan's explanation of justification by works is in error.

James 2:18, does not equate with justification by obedience in James 2:21 and James 2:24.

James taught no one is justified by faith only. We only receive Gods justification by faith that obeys Gods commandments.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We are not robots. You aren’t stuck in obedience because you have true biblical faith. That’s nonsense!

Or why is this written:

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:” (2 Peter 1:10)

And why must we:

“beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith” (2 Peter 1:5)

Because:

“if ye do these things, ye shall never fall” (2 Peter 1:10)

Once Saved Always Saved is so easily refuted with scripture that it’s mind boggling how it prevails in Christianity.

Yes, I agree. That’s a good one indeed. Here are some of my favorites.

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​

We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

So the whole forced love robot mentality after one makes a one time decision for Christ as their Savior simply does not hold up to the light of God’s Word. Of course many of them will find a way to twist these above verses to defend their pet doctrine of OSAS (Instead of just reading and believing the Bible plainly). For the idea that they can sin and still be saved while believing in Jesus is too strong for many to let go of. For I don’t buy into their “we are not justifying sin” excuse because they misinterpret 1 John 1:8, and Isaiah 64:6 to justify that they will sin at some point this side of Heaven and they cannot help it. With this kind of mentality, they are slaves (servants) to sin and not slaves (servants) to righteousness (Romans 6).

 

[Titus]

We are not robots. You aren’t stuck in obedience because you have true biblical faith. That’s nonsense!

Or why is this written:

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:” (2 Peter 1:10)

And why must we:

“beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith” (2 Peter 1:5)

Because:

“if ye do these things, ye shall never fall” (2 Peter 1:10)

Once Saved Always Saved is so easily refuted with scripture that it’s mind boggling how it prevails in Christianity.

Good point.
Why all the warnings to remain faithfull if those with true Biblical saving faith cannot fall away.

Danthemailman, is possibly unaware that he is teaching, calvinism.
That is, P, perseverance of the saints.OSAS is calvinism whether folks know it or not.

It is not taught that ones who have true faith cannot stop believing.

Works are evidence of true faith.
But it is not true that works of faith prove perseverance to the end.

Revelation 2:10,
...Be faithful until death, and I will give you a crown of life.

No need for warning, if we cannot loose salvation by not being faithful.

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker said: ...it's a misunderstanding of epic proportions to see that as God breaking, or not keeping, or breaching His promise
No it isn’t.

Yes, it most certainly is. It's actually a form of... Well, that would offend you, so I'll keep it to myself.

The people were rebellious. They caused the breach of promise.

Well, I whole heartedly agree, but the problem is what you think is meant by "breach of promise." God did not ~ did not ~ break or revoke, or fail to keep His promise to Israel in any way. To explain, yes, because they were rebellious (and grumbling against God), and they caused God's displeasure, God's displeasure is active, taking the form of righteous anger, reproach, and judgment. This is what is meant by God's breach of promise.

NOTE: This is beside the point, but the same happens today, by the way, to God's Israel, which since the coming of Christ includes Gentiles and ethnic Jews alike.

Continuing, God enacted this displeasure... breached ~ withheld the benefits of ~ His promise for a short time... by removing His holy protection of the Israelites for a time. He told them (through Moses) He was going to do this in Numbers 14:35 (the very next verse after verse 34, the one from which you get the horribly mistaken idea that God broke or revoked or failed to keep His promise of protection):

"I, the LORD, have spoken. Surely this will I do to all this wicked congregation who are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall come to a full end, and there they shall die." (Numbers 14:35)

And then four verses later, we see what God said would happen come to pass:

"When Moses told these words to all the people of Israel, the people mourned greatly. And they rose early in the morning and went up to the heights of the hill country, saying, 'Here we are. We will go up to the place that the LORD has promised, for we have sinned.' But Moses said, 'Why now are you transgressing the command of the LORD, when that will not succeed? Do not go up, for the LORD is not among you, lest you be struck down before your enemies. For there the Amalekites and the Canaanites are facing you, and you shall fall by the sword. Because you have turned back from following the LORD, the LORD will not be with you.' But they presumed to go up to the heights of the hill country, although neither the ark of the covenant of the LORD nor Moses departed out of the camp. Then the Amalekites and the Canaanites who lived in that hill country came down and defeated them and pursued them, even to Hormah."(Numbers 14:39-45; emphasis mine)

This translation just destroys Once Saved Always Saved that’s all!

Only if one horribly misunderstands what the King James Version (and every other version) says in verse 34 (as you have). So, to what you say here, absolutely not. I do hope for your sake that that really is all for you, but I'm... not optimistic.

Puhleeese!!!

LOL! Well, yeah, please get it right, and don't remain lost in ignorance. Please.

Grace and peace to you.[/QUOTE]

 

[Titus]

God does not break His promises with man.
Ephesians 1:13,
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

But that has nothing to do with our promise.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is a covenant with God.
Covenant is an agreement, contract between two ir more.

God will not break His seal to keep us saved.

But we can break our contract and therefore the seal is broken.
Nothing can seperate us from the love of God.

But we can seperate ourselves from Gods grace.
Only under the new covenant is Gods grace.

Once we break our contract, we are no longer under Gods grace.

Seals can be broken,
Revelation 6:1-12

 

[Michiah-Imla]

God does not break His promises with man.

He does if that man goes on to rebel against Him and will be not be reformed.

“And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.” (Jeremiah 18:9-10)

 

[PinSeeker]

mailmandan said: So true Biblical faith does not result in obedience according to you?
No, according to scriptures!

Yes, it most certainly does:

“By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name” (Romans 1:5)

Paul is talking about himself and his band of brothers shortly after Jesus's crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, the 12 men who were apostles appointed by Christ. Only these 12 are the "we" Paul is referring to in this verse. There have been no apostles since their passing 2000-plus years ago, nor will there be. Even more pertinently, Paul is saying, in this very verse, exactly what the mailman has been... delivering... telling you... . Their obedience to the faith among all nations ~ which is a harkening back to Jesus's Great Commission, documented at the very end of Matthew's Gospel (Matthew 28:19-20). It's really worth looking at this whole greeting from Paul to the Romans:

"Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He (God, of course) promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning his Son (Jesus, of course), Who was descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness (the Holy Spirit, of course) by His (Jesus's) resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, through Whom we (the twelve apostles, including Paul, Peter, and the others) have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of His name among all the nations, including you (the Romans, and by extension all Christians) who are called (by God the Father) to belong to Jesus Christ (God the Son)..." (Romans 1:1-6)

You have to obey the faith.

Well, you have to have faith (assurance given by the Father and conviction given by the Holy Spirit. Faith is a gift of the Spirit, a spiritual gift (Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12). And if we have this truth we will ~ will ~ strive to obey God. But still we, because of the sin that is still in us, are not able to obey God perfectly in this life. I mean, woodenly speaking, we could do it, because it's possible, as Jesus showed us, but only God is able to remain sinless, which, of course, He did, in the Person of Jesus. As for us, in this life, we are far from perfect in anything, obedience included. We still fall way short of God's glory (Romans 3:23), but thanks be to God, we have been set free from sin (although still yet not sinless) and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 6:22-23).

Not have true biblical faith to obtain obedience.

Ah, see, this is where the whole misunderstanding is, really. LOL! Anybody can obey God, at least from time to time, Christian or not...

* whether one has the gift of God of true biblical faith (which, again, is the assurance (from God the Father) of things hoped for, the conviction (by the Holy Spirit) of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). Again, as Paul says, by grace we Christians have been saved through faith, and this is not our own doing but the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8).​

* whether they realize who or what they are obeying or not. I mean, experientially, they are obeying themselves, really, but they may be, ultimately speaking, unintentionally obeying God without even realizing it or having any clue of it. Certainly, antichrists do not intentionally obey God, their intention is really to disobey God and follow after their own foolish, as Paul says in Romans 1, passions.​

But this woodenly being able to obey God really falls way short of the point. It's just silly, really. But in that wooden way, that it is possible to obey God perfectly, no one here disagrees. But this whole point is non sequitur, really. It's a point with no point.

And this isn’t taught anywhere in scripture, “having true biblical faith results in obedience”. It’s just more vain talk from vain talkers.

Well, again, woodenly, that's true, but without biblical faith, one is not called by and therefore gifted by God in that way or in any way, and any obedience of God, however intentional and/or great in extent, is in vain. And again, this is exactly the point James is conveying, that faith is not true biblical faith ~ not of God, not given by God ~ but a dead "faith" if it does not bring about good works. And again, Paul says in Ephesians 2, we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Shorten up your posts...

If you're misunderstandings were not so vast and far-reaching, it wouldn't be necessary.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ScottA]

No. It is not misleading. It is not wrong. It merely contradicts what you inherited.

Gentiles are not in the new covenant. The antinomian philosophy of the Eurocentric Theological Model teaches a number of anti-Jewish attitudes. Not the least of which is the idea that Christians should not obey the Commandments of YHVH. They claim they should not sin, but refuse to acknowledge what the NT identifies as sin. It is amazingly self-contradictory. When I read the Bible, I realized how wrong and perverted that philosophy is. That's why I left.

Jeremiah 16:19

Say what is according to your own philosophy--but you have butchered the gospel to do it. And now, being off the path you bring corruption to other matters, even to the doctrine of salvation. These things are on you.

So be it.

Genesis 22:18
In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

Isaiah 42:1
“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name shall be great among the nations,” Says the Lord of hosts.

Acts 11:18
When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 13:47
For so the Lord has commanded us: ‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”

Acts 13:48
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 21:25
But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”

Romans 2:14
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,

Romans 11:19
You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”​

 

[PinSeeker]

God does not break His promises with man.
Ephesians 1:13,
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

But that has nothing to do with our promise.

Excellent! Thank you, Titus.

God will not break His seal to keep us saved.

I'm not sure I follow you here, though. The fact that God will not break His seal (I agree with you on that) is rock-solid assurance ~ should be anyway ! that once we are called by God and thus saved, we will, without fail, be kept in that salvation, even to the day of Christ:

"...He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1:6)

"...He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)

But we can break our contract and therefore the seal is broken.

Ah, well, we can break our end of the covenant, but God's seal cannot be broken. You might want to remember back to God's covenant with Abraham, where He put Abraham into a deep sleep and vowed to fulfill that covenant both on His end ~ God would be put to death if He failed to keep His end of the covenant ~ and Abraham's end ~ God would die in Abraham's place if Abraham failed to keep his end of the covenant. And surely you know that the latter happened and played out in the crucifixion of Christ Jesus.

Nothing can separate us from the love of God.

Exactly.

But we can separate ourselves from Gods grace.

No, God can withhold His grace from time to time (remove His countenance from us) for a time, but for Christians, even this is a grace of God.

Only under the new covenant is Gods grace.

Hm. No. God's grace has always been there. And even since Adam and Eve, since the fall, all whom God calls are no longer under the law but under grace. But that should not be understood to mean that the law is inert or has no effect or purpose, or is not still in effect.

Once we break our contract, we are no longer under Gods grace.

Ugh. See above.

Seals can be broken...

Not God's. Once we are sealed by God in the Spirit, that cannot be broken. Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 8:39).

Grace and peace to you.