Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Johann]

I don't think I'm saved because I approve more of myself then I did before. I think I'm saved because I'm relying on Jesus, who is unto me sanctification. Not what I see, but what I believe. What I rely on.

Much love marks and well stated,
J.

 

[ScottA]

Jesus can speak cryptically because Jesus is GOD. God knows all things. Nowhere does our Lord Jesus or His followers tell us to speak cryptically to others (So as to hide truth). We are told to follow Jesus, but there are limitations in our imitation of our Lord. We obviously cannot have people bow down and worship us because Jesus is GOD. So this is one aspect we cannot follow Jesus or mimic Him on.

The only instance of where we as believers are to hide God’s precious truths on is mentioned by our Lord Jesus is found in Matthew 7:6.

For Jesus said,
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.” (Matthew 7:6).

The obvious meaning to this verse is that we are not to give precious truths in God’s Word to unbelieving Gentiles, otherwise, they will just trample such truths under their feet and try to tear you apart over it. So this does not apply to Christians who are supposed to regard the Bible as their sole authority for all matters of faith and practice.

I am not going to argue or defend what the scriptures clearing say to the contrary and not at all what you are now saying. Jesus is not the only one who seemingly spoke in riddles--it is all throughout the scriptures--every prophet did similarly. But your statement about Jesus is wrong anyway...just as Paul said, "for me to live, is Christ"; and it is not we who are His who speak the things of God, but He who speaks through us. Matthew 10:20

What you are missing here...is that because the words from God do in fact come from Him in this would-be cryptic manner--this is not how the word from God is hidden, but how it is revealed. I suggest therefore, that there is indeed a "renewing" of our minds needed in order for us to receive the truth in the way He has appointed it.

 

[ScottA]

First, you cannot fall away from something you never had.
For example: Rick cannot fall away from off a cliff if he was never on the cliff.
Bob cannot fall away from the faith if he never had the faith to begin with.
Stephen’s old friends cannot fall away from him if he never was friends with them in the first place.

Just type into Google sentence examples for “fall away” and you will see more of these kinds of examples.

Second, back in Galatians chapter 2: Paul asks the Galatian believers: Have you BEGUN in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh?

“Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” (Galatians 3:3).

This is saying that they started off in the Spirit (God’s grace, and His good ways with the Spirit) and now Paul is asking them if they are perfect by the fleshy action of circumcision.

For the Galatian believers were thinking they had to be circumcised in order to be saved because of the Jews who spied out their liberty in Christ Jesus so as to bring them into bondage.

Galatians 2:3-4 says,
“But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:”

For Paul says,
“if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2).

Obviously Circumcision is not a problem if one is not doing it for salvation (For Paul circumcised Timothy so that he could move about within the Jewish region - See Acts of the Apostles 16:3). The issue is that there were Jews who were trying to deceive Christians into thinking they had to be circumcised in order to be saved. This heresy was addressed at the Jerusalem council.

Acts of the Apostles 15:1
“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

(See also Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

Believers under the New Covenant are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. Christians do not have to be circumcised, keep the Saturday Sabbath, holy days, and or dietary laws so as to be saved (See: Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 14:5, Romans 14:14).

Anyways, getting back to Galatians 3. Paul asks the Galatian believes in his letter to them:

Galatians 3:1-2
“O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

So again we see here that Paul confirms they have been bewitched and he asks if they received the Spirit by the works of the Law (like circumcision), or the hearing of faith. This establishes Paul statement if you seek to be justified by the Law you have fallen from grace in Galatians 5:4. Paul was talking about them being circumcised to be saved (Galatians 5:2) (Galatians 2:3). So no. Your not reading things in context. My guess is you had no idea about this kind of thing in the text. You are just inserting what you want to be true into the Bible.

That was too longwinded...but you make my point for me.

The difference is, that you assume that Paul is talking about falling from salvation, when he clearly says he is not, but is talking about faith. But you saying so brings up a good point--again, making my point for me:

Since the context is "faith", salvation has not yet occurred...for what is faith but "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Which is to say--that which is not yet attained.​

So...if you would like to present a case for those who "are" or "were" actually saved--please do, for there are many and "when" they were saved is even more rejected, and it would be good to acknowledge that as well. Even so, even though Paul speaks to and of both the saved and also those who have not yet attained it--the point is, he never preached that one who is born of God can be unborn. And if this is not yet clear, more study is certainly in order.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).

This was addressing those who had only "heard", but had not yet received the gospel, and therefore were not yet saved.

The only manner a person can think this way is if:

(a) They just blindly say this without even looking at the actual chapter or unless:
(b) They twisted the chapter beyond recognition.

The context of Colossians 1:23 in the admonishment of continuing in the faith and to not be moved away from the hope of the gospel is in context to the previous verses in reference to faithful believers and not unbelievers. There is no mention of unbelievers or fake believers prior to Colossians 1:23.

Paul is writing to the saints:

Colossians 1:2
“To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

These saints have been delivered from the power of darkness.

Colossians 1:13-14
“Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:”

And the immediate context (Including Colossians 1:23), proves my case even more:

Colossians 1:21-23
21 “And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”

Paul is telling the same believers at Colossae he was talking to in verse 2 that they were at one time in the past alienated and enemies by wicked works (as a part of their old sinful life), and now they have been reconciled and that the Lord will present them holy and blameless in His sight IF they continue in the faith and not be moved away from the hope of the gospel or good news. The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. They have to continue to believe in the hope of this gospel and not be moved away from this hope to have the promise mentioned in verse 22.

 

[Johann]

And if this is not yet clear, more study is certainly in order.

I would say all of us must increase in the studying of the scriptures on a daily basis to be able to..

2Co 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.
2Co 10:5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,
2Co 10:6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.

Ongoing, progressive studying...
My 2 cents (for what it's worth) you guys are giants.
J.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That was too longwinded...but you make my point for me.

The difference is, that you assume that Paul is talking about falling from salvation, when he clearly says he is not, but is talking about faith. But you saying so brings up a good point--again, making my point for me:

Since the context is "faith", salvation has not yet occurred...for what is faith but "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Which is to say--that which is not yet attained.​

So...if you would like to present a case for those who "are" or "were" actually saved--please do, for there are many and "when" they were saved is even more rejected, and it would be good to acknowledge that as well. Even so, even though Paul speaks to and of both the saved and also those who have not yet attained it--the point is, he never preached that one who is born of God can be unborn. And if this is not yet clear, more study is certainly in order.

A moment ago you were singing the song and dance that this was not in reference to believers but unbelievers, and seeing I proved that wrong, you are now changing your tune to come up with yet another excuse that does not exist in the text. You say I am making my point for me and yet you are not quoting any actual verses from Galatians clearly to defend your case or explaining the verses I put forth to you. Somebody who is bewitched and fallen from grace is not saved. Somebody who has begun in the Spirit is not referring to a fake believer or an unbeliever. So again, you are not addressing the verses and points I brought up and you are ripping the Bible out of context to fit OSAS into the Bible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That was too longwinded...but you make my point for me.

The difference is, that you assume that Paul is talking about falling from salvation, when he clearly says he is not, but is talking about faith. But you saying so brings up a good point--again, making my point for me:

Since the context is "faith", salvation has not yet occurred...for what is faith but "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Which is to say--that which is not yet attained.​

So...if you would like to present a case for those who "are" or "were" actually saved--please do, for there are many and "when" they were saved is even more rejected, and it would be good to acknowledge that as well. Even so, even though Paul speaks to and of both the saved and also those who have not yet attained it--the point is, he never preached that one who is born of God can be unborn. And if this is not yet clear, more study is certainly in order.

This is just getting crazier. You are now suggesting (in desperation) that Paul is talking about faith without salvation in Galatians. This line of thinking cannot be supported by a normal reading of the text.

We know Paul is talking about salvation:

Galatians 1:6-9
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

This is why Paul says,

Galatians 3:1-3
1 “O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

Paul say in Galatians 1:6 that they are being removed unto another gospel. If a person believes another false gospel that does not save, they are not saved. They are moved away from the hope of the real gospel.

Before you were saying this was the unbeliever to deal with he problem with Galatians 5:4, and now you are coming up with yet another false idea that does not exist in the text. This is because you want OSAS to be true even if it is not in the Bible.

 

[ScottA]

The only manner a person can think this way is if:

(a) They just blindly say this without even looking at the actual chapter or unless:
(b) They twisted the chapter beyond recognition.

The context of Colossians 1:23 in the admonishment of continuing in the faith and to not be moved away from the hope of the gospel is in context to the previous verses in reference to faithful believers and not unbelievers. There is no mention of unbelievers or fake believers prior to Colossians 1:23.

Paul is writing to the saints:

Colossians 1:2
“To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

These saints have been delivered from the power of darkness.

Colossians 1:13-14
“Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:”

And the immediate context (Including Colossians 1:23), proves my case even more:

Colossians 1:21-23
21 “And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”

Paul is telling the same believers at Colossae he was talking to in verse 2 that they were at one time in the past alienated and enemies by wicked works (as a part of their old sinful life), and now they have been reconciled and that the Lord will present them holy and blameless in His sight IF they continue in the faith and not be moved away from the hope of the gospel or good news. The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. They have to continue to believe in the hope of this gospel and not be moved away from this hope to have the promise mentioned in verse 22.

You must have been addressing this while I was answering it in another post, here: Once Saved, Always Saved?

Anyway...what Paul wrote can and is often misunderstood, but by definition it is impossible to conclude that he meant to say that one who is born of God can be unborn.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I think I'm saved because I'm relying on Jesus

But how do you know you're really relying on Jesus? That is the question that is evading everybody. Everybody is answering, "because Jesus is great". But that does not answer the question of whether or not his greatness has been applied to you. How do you know you have the greatness and surety of God in salvation applied to your life? Just because you say so/ think so? If looking at if you're growing in Christ is just an unreliable opinion and can't be used to confirm that you are in Christ, how much more then is just saying and thinking you are saved.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes.



WHO is me? You already gave the answer....JESUS.
And I agree.

Are the CONVERTED....Converted “IN” Jesus?
................................Or Converted “IN” Christ?
Are the CONVERTED....Waiting to BECOME SAVED after bodily death?
.................................Or Converted/Saved BEFORE bodily death?

Jesus is revealing, men “IN” JESUS, WHO, remain “IN” Jesus, shall BECOME Saved at their bodily death. Scripture repeatedly WARNS, for men “IN” Jesus must ENDURE, REMAIN, KEEP, ‘IN” Jesus, “IF” they want to BECOME SAVED, When they physically die.
* The thief, hanging next to Jesus, realized WHILE he was being crucified, that he Believed IN Jesus, and unto his Death he Believe IN Jesus, and WHEN his body physically died....HE WAS then SAVED. (That occurs repeatedly with men on their death bed.).
* The there are thousands of men WHO Believe “IN” Jesus, WHO NEVER CONVERT “IN” Christ. Any man WHO continues, remain, endures BELIEVING “IN” Jesus, SHALL be saved when they physically bodily die.
* THEY DO NOT PARTICIPATE “IN /as Occupants of” Christs 1,000 yr Earthly Kingdom. Their soul and spirit rise up to Heaven. Their BODY is raised AFTER the 1,000 yr reign, ie the FIRST MASS Resurrection.
** God will BRING “with HIM”, all those who “SLEEP” (are bodily dead, having Believed in JESUS.) ie The FIRST MASS Resurrection.

1 Thes 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus (the Son of God) will God bring with him.

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive (in Christ) and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 20:
[5] But the rest of the dead (those IN JESUS) lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

SEE, who is who?
IN Jesus, receive Salvation AFTER Bodily Death, and God WILL Bring them. After the 1,000 year reign.
IN Christ, have received-ED Salvation BEFORE Bodily Death, and the Lord WILL call them up to Him, VIA His Servants Signal, and SHALL be WITH Christ in His earthly Kingdom, for His 1,000 year earthly reign.



No. Shall be SAVED when they bodily die....”IF” they remain IN Jesus.



Yes. I noticed. And I notice who Scripture specifically is SPEAKING of.



No. OSAS, is precisely about Becoming MADE, “IN” CHRIST!



You are making presumptions based on the difference of what IS SAID, and what YOU KNOW.
Not ALL KNOW, Jesus IS the Christ.
Not ALL BELIEVE, Jesus IS the Christ.
Believing, Knowing, “HEARTFULLY” CONFESSING, Jesus IS THE CHRIST...
...IS precisely HOW a man BECOMES MADE CONVERTED, BY Gods Works, IN that man right then, ONCE and FOREVER, and that man CALLED....”IN” Christ. Ie...OSAS.
* So what about the man WHO believes IN Jesus, but NEVER, makes a “heartful Confession” that JESUS IS THE CHSIRT?
He is NOT SAVED, “right then”. IF he continues, remains, endures Believing IN Jesus to the day he physically Dies......
HE SHALL BE SAVED THEN! AFTER His physical Death.

So WHY DOES a man “IN” Christ become saved, BEFORE physical death?
BECAUSE, God Himself, MADE A New COVENANT, that ANY MAN, Choosing of his own Freewill for their BODY TO BE CRUCIFIED WITH JESUS” BODY....that man HAS FULFILLED the “requirement” OF ONE BODILY DEATH that “IS REQUIRED” BEFORE a man CAN BE....BORN AGAIN (ie QUICKENED) of Gods SEED.

Heb 9:
[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Men Believing IN Jesus, shall become SAVED for remaining in BELIEF.
Men WHO are Believing IN Jesus, are simply Believing. They are not offering their Body’s to be crucified with Christ.

Men IN Christ, gave their bodys, unto DEATH, crucified with Jesus.

1 Cor 15:
[35] But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

John 15:
[13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

A man WILLINGLY, FREELY Laying down his Life, crucified with Jesus...
Reveals to God, that mans GREAT LOVE for Christ Jesus.

My Position remains the same. OSAS

Glory to God,
Taken

You are very hard to follow. It seems that your position is that you can be in Christ during this lifetime but eventually not end up being saved at the end of your life if you don't remain in Christ until then. And it seems that you don't think that someone can be considered to be saved until their life ends. Am I understanding you correctly on these things or not?

 

[marks]

But how do you know you're really relying on Jesus? That is the question that is evading everybody. Everybody is answering, "because Jesus is great". But that does not answer the question of whether or not his greatness has been applied to you.

Which question are you asking me, "How do I know I'm trusting Jesus?" Or "how do I know whether His greatness has been applied to me?"

How do I know I'm trusting Jesus? I know.

What do you mean, "His greatness applied to me?"

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

A moment ago you were singing the song and dance that this was not in reference to believers but unbelievers, and seeing I proved that wrong, you are now changing your tune to come up with yet another excuse that does not exist in the text. You say I am making my point for me and yet you are not quoting any actual verses from Galatians clearly to defend your case or explaining the verses I put forth to you. Somebody who is bewitched and fallen from grace is not saved. Somebody who has begun in the Spirit is not referring to a fake believer or an unbeliever. So again, you are not addressing the verses and points I brought up and you are ripping the Bible out of context to fit OSAS into the Bible.

The verse you quoted was enough. I had no need to quote more.

But no, I did not change my tact, but accommodated you in your tact...using the verse and the terms you chose. This is not on me, but on you. Stop blaming.

Nonetheless, the point is the same: no person who is actually saved (whether a "believer" who has not yet attained salvation, one of "faith" and only hopes for what they have not yet attained, or one under "grace" who has only been given the opportunity to receive salvation but has not yet attained it--or any other term used to define one who has not yet attained salvation), having been born of God, cannot be unborn (loose salvation).

 

[marks]

If looking at if you're growing in Christ is just an unreliable opinion and can't be used to confirm that you are in Christ, how much more then is just saying and thinking you are saved.

Well, if you put it THAT way . . . then there is no other answer, because if you are "just" saying and thinking something, you've drained out all other meaning.

Generally I just call that loaded language since you've answered yourself within your own words.

Romans 8:15-16 KJV
15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Do you have this witness?

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

This is just getting crazier. You are now suggesting (in desperation) that Paul is talking about faith without salvation in Galatians. This line of thinking cannot be supported by a normal reading of the text.

We know Paul is talking about salvation:

Galatians 1:6-9
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

This is why Paul says,

Galatians 3:1-3
1 “O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

Paul say in Galatians 1:6 that they are being removed unto another gospel. If a person believes another false gospel that does not save, they are not saved. They are moved away from the hope of the real gospel.

Before you were saying this was the unbeliever to deal with he problem with Galatians 5:4, and now you are coming up with yet another false idea that does not exist in the text. This is because you want OSAS to be true even if it is not in the Bible.

You are still attempting to say that one who is born of God can be unborn (aborted).

You misunderstand the scriptures.

In spite of your understanding of the scripture--you are wrong. Paul was not saying that one who is born of God can be unborn.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The verse you quoted was enough. I had no need to quote more.

But no, I did not change my tact, but accommodated you in your tact...using the verse and the terms you chose. This is not on me, but on you. Stop blaming.

Nonetheless, the point is the same: no person who is actually saved (whether a "believer" who has not yet attained salvation, one of "faith" and only hopes for what they have not yet attained, or one under "grace" who has only been given the opportunity to receive salvation but has not yet attained it--or any other term used to define one who has not yet attained salvation), having been born of God, cannot be unborn (loose salvation).

its sad.

they can't get out of Gods way, Trust him to save them. They have to put themselves into the equation as if they have something really to offer God to help him save them

 

[mailmandan]

its sad.

they can't get out of Gods way, Trust him to save them. They have to put themselves into the equation as if they have something really to offer God to help him save them

It's a shame that human pride will not allow them to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's a shame that human pride will not allow them to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

Sadly, Satan has duped mankind since Cain. We are so gullible because of our pride.

 

[Taken]

You are very hard to follow. It seems that your position is that you can be in Christ during this lifetime but eventually not end up being saved at the end of your life if you don't remain in Christ until then. And it seems that you don't think that someone can be considered to be saved until their life ends. Am I understanding you correctly on these things or not?

No...
In layman’s terms...
Say Joe Blow, hears the word of God, occasionally. Says humm, okay, I believe. He doesn’t COMMIT (ie become Converted). He maybe goes to church on those “special” holidays, keeps the wife and kids happy...so definitely not ‘involved”, reading Scripture, not interested in religious discussions....Goes to work...provides for his family...helps neighbors....characterized as a good guy....involved family man.
Very vague in Scriptural knowledge....the bare basics....YET maintains face to face....Yep he Believes.

Where does this guy fit in the scenario of “receiving” Salvation?
Now, with the Committed, crucified, Converted “IN” Christ? No.

Where does he fit?
He fits with the group, repeatedly WARNED...to endure to the end.
What end? The end of his physical Life.
Do what until his end? REMAIN Believing.
WHY a WARNING? Because...the prowling evil spirits!...the wicked power sitting men..!!.(glance at China’s head...the size of that nation of people...forbidden the Word of God)...Look at the grand shift in the US.
World leader as God loving, Christ Jesus their Lord....and today? We have an embarrassing thing sitting in the Peoples High Office...(supposed to be a SERVANT)....mumbling out words of a Dictator....and could not remember “the Creator,” calling “Him” “eh you know, the THING”!

Joe Biden Forgets “the Creator” in the Declaration of Independence. Calls God “the Thing” Lifenews.com

Joe Blow, “IF” he continues believing to his end of Life...
God will Save him THEN. God will bring him, with God.
When After the Lord has gathered His People, and After
The Lord’s 1,000 yr reign...End of Trib...and in grand
First resurrection of all the Dead BELIEVERS, from the
Beginning to the Ending, WHO Believed at the time of
Their physical death...but not Converted IN Christ.

1 Thes 4;
[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

3 different groups...
*Brethren...saved in Chirst
*Men ...rejecting God & Christ...no hope
*Men ...asleep/ physically dead/ believed when they died, but not Converted IN Christ


[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
^ Dead “IN” JESUS....(see? Believers, but not Converted “IN” Christ.)
God brings them....Gods resurrection is First resurrection after Trib.

[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Alive / Dead/ All body’s IN Christ, risen up to the Lord

[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
^ Dead body’s IN Christ, order rise first.


[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
^ Alive in Body, brethren IN Christ, then rise.

Rev 20
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

* Converted IN Christ....ARE SAVED...Raptured.
* Joe Blow believers to the day of their death...
Or alive Believing....Tribulation begins....the alive experience a portion...must die...SHALL be SAVED, soul rises, spirit quickened, rises...body’s remain on earth...waiting for 1,000 yrs to pass...raised up bodily, First resurrection.
*Converted IN Christ...Reign with Christ 1,000 years.
*Satan loosed, Nations come against Christ’s Kingdom, Spiritual Warfare...Holy Angels Prevail, Christ’s Kingdom Prevails....etc.

Receiving Salvation ALWAYS FIRST requires a DEATH of the Body.
* Converted...”still alive”...accounted...crucified with Christ...dead body requirement fulfilled.
* Believing to the day one dies (but not Converted), must bodily die, to receive their Salvation.
(And again the WARNING to endure...is going to be PARAMOUNT, when Tribulation begins....many will do anything to saved their flesh lives...and oops, lose eternal life with God)

Hope that helps.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Romans 8:15-16 KJV
15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Do you have this witness?

I do have that witness. But people in cults claim to have that same witness, too. But, Biblically, the witness of the Spirit includes seeing what the Spirit is doing in you in bringing you to obedience to God:

"24Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him. And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us." 1 John 3:24​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Which question are you asking me, "How do I know I'm trusting Jesus?" Or "how do I know whether His greatness has been applied to me?"

How do I know I'm trusting Jesus? I know.

How do you know? Just because you know? How is that a better way to know you're really saved than what Paul and Peter say about knowing you really are saved (by your changed life)?

What do you mean, "His greatness applied to me?"

Much love!

See, a lot of Christians take comfort that they are saved from believing they can never lose their salvation. But that doesn't answer the important question of whether or not they're even saved in the first place. That is what I'm addressing. But nobody answers that. Instead, everybody just goes right to the OSAS teaching to find assurance that they are saved. But OSAS does not answer the question of if you're even really saved in the first place. The Bible tells us how we can know for sure that we are saved. Most Christians are not aware of those scriptures. And those who are aware of them discard them in favor of the 'I feel like I'm saved, therefore, I am' argument, which does not come from the Bible.