Once Saved, Always Saved?

[PinSeeker]

They have God given free will so they simply choose to ignore or otherwise turn away from the Lord.

Sure, no one is denying that. However, there is something that causes them to do that and that is ~ according to Hebrews 3:12 ~ an evil, unbelieving heart. The heart is what drives the will. Or, in other words, one's free will is always dictated by one's own heart.

Sure he was just like the Apostle Paul was a murderer before He got born again.

Imagine a murder trial, Big Boy. The defendant pleads 'not guilty by reason of insanity.' During the trial, the prosecuting attorney calls a renowned psychiatrist, who, in the course of her testimony says she has examined the defendant thoroughly and found the defendant to be sane and in command of all his faculties. The jury then finds him guilty as charged and sentences him to death by electrocution. Or letal injection, if you prefer. Or even ~ if in sixteenth-century Switzerland ~ burning at the stake. Whatever the time and mode, the defendant is put to death. Is the psychiatrist a murderer? Well, no, of course not.

Big Boy, John Calvin's position was very much the same as the psychiatrist in the... parable... above. Calvin actually even tried to dissuade Servetus from coming to Geneva in the first place, advising him that he would face prosecution if he did, but Servetus ignored this advice and came anyway. For that reason, one could call Michael Servetus a murderer of himself, which would be quite ridiculous, really, but would line up with how you're... "thinking" <smile> about this whole thing.

Both men directed others to murder...

John Calvin did not. But, people still are rewriting history to make it so.

Those that are followers of John Calvin are going to learn that He's not the Lord and Savior...

LOL!!! No, John Calvin is not the Lord and Savior... He's surely not... LOL!!!

You're ignorant of Calvin's influence in Geneva...

Absolutely not. See above. He was an expert witness, though...

...nothing happened unless he approved of it.

Pish. That's just silly.

Okay, we're done here, Big Boy. <smile> You can continue grinding that axe all your days if you so... freely will (see what I did there?) to do so.

They had a good heart in the beginning and then they turned away because their good heart turned evil.

"The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." (Genesis 6:5)

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)

All men are "children of wrath," as Paul says, in Ephesians 2:3, and sinful from birth, as David says of himself in Psalm 51:5... "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Okay, that's enough. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Big Boy.

Interesting... and very appropriate... moniker...

 

[Rich R]

I don't really understand your question but the 2nd sentence is Circular Reasoning - both your premise and your conclusion in denial of Hebrews 10:26 and may other verses.

Seems to me you are taking this 'incorruptible seed' too literally or too mystically. Yes, my wife can clean the kitchen AND it can get dirty again. Another way to look at it is the person ejects and rejects this 'incorruptible seed' In The Chosen, Judas has a last conversation with Jesus before he betrays him. Jesus says, "All I want is your heart. I had it once before. Now someone else has it." I know this is fiction but it is consistent with these verses.

I think you are reading way too many things into what I'm saying. Much like some read way too many things into the scriptures. When we start doing that, someone will eventually say to a brother, "you are taking this "saved by the blood" too literally or too mystical. Anybody could determine what is to be taken seriously or mystical. Where would that get us?

The logical predicament you put yourself is is ex post facto; claiming no one ever came to Jesus TRULY because they later turned from him. It is Circular Reasoning.

That's what you think I saying? It's not even close. But it is a good example of what I said; you are reading way too much into what I'm saying.

 

[PinSeeker]

Seems to me you are taking this 'incorruptible seed' too literally or too mystically.

I'm not sure anybody is doing that, but some (maybe or maybe not including Rich) don't fully understand it correctly. I mean, what is the "incorruptible seed." Or, maybe to more correctly phrase the question, Who is the "incorruptible seed?" <smile>

Yes, my wife can clean the kitchen AND it can get dirty again. Another way to look at it is the person ejects and rejects this 'incorruptible seed' In The Chosen, Judas has a last conversation with Jesus before he betrays him. Jesus says, "All I want is your heart. I had it once before. Now someone else has it." I know this is fiction but it is consistent with these verses.

Ah, you know, "The Chosen" is a well-made and entertaining television series. The writing, directing, and acting is very good. I enjoyed it... or should say have enjoyed it, because I have yet to see season six. But there are some inaccuracies in it. And some dramatization beyond what is in Scripture, which is okay, but at least to some extent we have to call it historical fiction. But on this particular thing, Biblically, Wrangler, if Jesus "has your heart," He will never let it go, and He will never lose it. Scripture after scripture testifies to this... even Jesus Himself in His own words, nowhere more clearly than in John 10, where Jesus tells a group of Jews:

"...you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not among My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:25-30)​

"No one," Wrangler, includes everyone, even oneself. You cannot snatch yourself out of the Father's (and Jesus's) hand... 'cannot' not in the sense of being incapable but in the sense that you will not, not because anyone is making you do or not do anything, but because ~ if you have been born again of the Spirit of God, then your will ~ your free will ~ is to do the Father's will.

I can't help but recall the great hymn, "O Love That Will Not Let Me Go" (emphasis mine)...

O Love that wilt not let me go,
I rest my weary soul in Thee;
I give Thee back the life I owe,
That in Thine ocean depths its flow
May richer, fuller be.

O Light that followest all my way,
I yield my flickering torch to Thee;
My heart restores its borrowed ray,
That in Thy sunshine's blaze its day
May brighter, fairer be.

O Joy that seekest me through pain,
I cannot close my heart to Thee;
I trace the rainbow through the rain,
And feel the promise is not vain,
That morn shall tearless be.

O Cross that liftest up my head,
I dare not ask to fly from thee;
I lay in dust life's glory dead,
And from the ground there blossoms red
Life that shall endless be.

The logical predicament you put yourself is is ex post facto; claiming no one ever came to Jesus TRULY because they later turned from him. It is Circular Reasoning.

No, Wrangler, it's not "circular reasoning" or "ex post facto." This is the only possibility, the only logical position. As Jesus says:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44, emphasis mine).​

And just after that He says:

"Do you take offense at this? ... It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all... This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father” (John 6:61-65).​

So yes, if one does not come to or believe on Christ ~ or at some point realizes he or she doesn't ~ then he or she never really believed ~ from the heart ~ on Christ or truly came to Him.

That's what you think I saying? It's not even close. But it is a good example of what I said; you are reading way too much into what I'm saying.

He's putting words in your mouth, Rich. <smile> And you're not the only one... <smile>

Grace and peace to you both.

 

[Wrangler]

But on this particular thing, Biblically, Wrangler, if Jesus "has your heart," He will never let it go, and He will never lose it.

Agreed. OSAS is not about the faithfulness of God or Jesus; it's ignoring our potential to repent to be faithless again and rescind our heart from Christ.

 

[Rich R]

I'm not sure anybody is doing that, but some (maybe or maybe not including Rich) don't fully understand it correctly. I mean, what is the "incorruptible seed." Or, maybe to more correctly phrase the question, Who is the "incorruptible seed?" <smile>

That is a good question, highly germane to the topic. Genesis 1 tells us what seed is. A seed, whether vegetable or animal, produces a like offspring as the one who produced the seed. A dog makes another dog, a cat makes another cat, a human makes another human, etc. "Incorruptible" is an adjective that describes the noun, seed. The same word is used in Romans:

Rom 1:23,

And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.​

​

When we are born into this world, it is by man's corruptible seed. When born again, it is from God's incorruptible seed. Being corruptible, the former means our bodies die. Being incorruptible means we have eternal life. To say otherwise requires a complete abandonment of the meaning of simple words.

God does not work with the flesh, that which came from corruptible seed. He does not make that corruptible seed incorruptible. Instead He plants a new creation, i.e. incorruptible seed into those who confess Jesus as lord and believe God raised him from the dead. Using the analogy of seed is a great way to express a new birth. Seed causes something to be born, specifically something of the same kind as the thing that produced the seed.

We are called sons and daughters of God because we have God's incorruptible seed. As his offspring, we share in the nature of that which produced the seed by which we were born. We have God's seed, hence we share His nature.

2Pet 1:4,

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.​

​

An apple, born from an apple seed, can not change into a peach. It started out as an apple, and it will remain an apple. Having God's incorruptible seed means we will remain his offspring having His nature. Like the apple, it'll never change. We remain the offspring of that which gave us seed.

 

[PinSeeker]

OSAS is not about the faithfulness of God or Jesus...

It's ABSOLUTELY about that. And about the absolute surety, the absolute unfailing-ness of God's faithfulness...

...it's ignoring our potential to repent to be faithless again and rescind our heart from Christ.

...and the certainty that, because of the absolute surety, the absolute unfailing-ness of God's faithfulness and his work in our hearts, that, even though we who are still in this world and thus imperfect, because of God's continual work in us, we individually will not fail to repent (continually) and ultimately do God's will... because this has become the desire of our heart. God has changed our heart ~ given us a new spirit, even His Spirit ~ and thus in this way caused to be so.

Grace and peace to you, Wrangler.

Wranglier... such an appropriate moniker... <chuckles>

 

[Wrangler]

It's ABSOLUTELY about that. And about the absolute surety, the absolute unfailing-ness of God's faithfulness...

Not only do we fundamentally disagree about the importance actions that prove one’s faith, your position goes against Scripture.

Although there are many verses, Christ states the contract, ‘abide in me and I will abide in you.’ This means we may NOT abide in him and if so, his Spirit will not be in us.

 

[amigo de christo]

Came across a couple of verses that further undermine OSAS.
1 Tim 5:8
Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

How can someone who is saved, with incorruptible seed deny the faith? Having this capacity is to deny Christ. How can someone who knew Christ, them deny him be saved? How is their condition different from one who never came to Christ?

Romans 6:12
Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires.

How can someone who is saved, with incorruptible seed, let sin control their life?

In both cases, we see choice is still a viable option. It makes no sense to recognize Jesus sacrifice covers sin to be applied as a license to sin.

Many have come to another jesus . that one cannot save them .
lip only is a false conversion my friend .
LETS remember that the next time these harlots bring this ecumeincal interfaith interreligious dialgoue to us .
Cause we cant claim to beleive and yet preach UNBELIEF baby . THEY all being decieved .

 

[Rich R]

Not only do we fundamentally disagree about the importance actions that prove one’s faith, your position goes against Scripture.

Although there are many verses, Christ states the contract, ‘abide in me and I will abide in you.’ This means we may NOT abide in him and if so, his Spirit will not be in us.

You are assuming that abiding equals sonship. Also, Jesus said that before the new birth was available on the day of Pentecost. That should have some bearing on the subject.

Do you abide in Jesus 100% of the time?

 

[Marvelloustime]

Many have come to another jesus . that one cannot save them .
lip only is a false conversion my friend .
LETS remember that the next time these harlots bring this ecumeincal interfaith interreligious dialgoue to us .
Cause we cant claim to beleive and yet preach UNBELIEF baby . THEY all being decieved .

@amigo de christo

 

[PinSeeker]

That is a good question, highly germane to the topic.

Of course it is, and concerning you, Rich, it was really rhetorical, which should have been obvious, because I answered it myself,,, <smile> ...kind of in the manner of Paul in various parts of his letter to the Romans, particularly Romans 9.

Genesis 1 tells us what seed is...

<chuckles> Well yes, in an elementary way...

When we are born into this world, it is by man's corruptible seed.

Sure. This is intimately related to the concept of Original Sin. Absolutely.

When born again, it is from God's incorruptible seed. Being corruptible, the former means our bodies die. Being incorruptible means we have eternal life.

And I have said this, albeit in different ways, many, many times, Rich.

To say otherwise requires a complete abandonment of the meaning of simple words.

Sure. I'm... not sure why you feel compelled to tell me this.

God... does not make that corruptible seed incorruptible.

He does. We are being made incorruptible even now, and one day will be. And this is because we have been born again of the Spirit and are thus in Christ, Who is the "Seed" (capitalized on purpose, of course) of God the Father. We do not make ourselves incorruptible by any stretch of the imagination, nor are we fully incorruptible at any point in this life, but rather becoming so, and ultimately will. This is what we should see in Philippians 1:6, when Paul says, "He Who began a good work in us will bring it to completion at the day of Christ."

We are called sons and daughters of God because we have God's incorruptible seed.

We are of it, but not yet completely conformed to it. But this is what we are predestined for...

"...those whom (God) foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son..." (Romans 8:29)​

​

"In (Christ Jesus) we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of (God the Father) Who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:11)​

As his offspring, we share in the nature of that which produced the seed by which we were born. We have God's seed, hence we share His nature.

Right, but that's not the only nature we have; the "old man," as Paul calls it, is still with us in this life. Do you think you are perfect, sinless, and fully conformed to the image of Christ yet, Rich? Again, a rhetorical question, really; you are not, and neither am I. But we will be... <smile>

An apple, born from an apple seed, can not change into a peach. It started out as an apple, and it will remain an apple. Having God's incorruptible seed means we will remain his offspring having His nature. Like the apple, it'll never change. We remain the offspring of that which gave us seed.

Do you believe God can do anything, Rich? Do you believe Jesus, when He said the following?

"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26)​

"With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God." (Mark 10:27)

​

"What is impossible with man is possible with God" (Luke 18:27)

You probably guessed; rhetorical... <chuckles>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Not only do we fundamentally disagree about the importance actions that prove one’s faith, your position goes against Scripture.

Well, we disagree, that is for sure. But regarding my "position," that's exactly what I'm saying of yours; it is contrary to Scripture.

Although there are many verses, Christ states the contract, ‘abide in me and I will abide in you.’

Sure. Particularly and explicitly in John 6 and 15.

This means we may NOT abide in him and if so, his Spirit will not be in us.

Right; I haven't said and am not saying anything contrary or in opposition to that, and never will. You obviously think I am, but I have not and am not (and will not). What you are either steadfastly opposed to or misunderstanding, Wrangler, is the Biblical truth that if we are born again of the Spirit of God, Wrangler, we will abide in Him ~ and freely so ~ if the Spirit has been given to us and is in us. If God has begun this good work in us, as Paul says in Philippians 1:6, He will bring it to completion at the day of Christ. And again, it's a matter of the heart, which at any given time drives the will. We love, as John says in 1 John 4:19, because God first loved us.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

Of course it is, and concerning you, Rich, it was really rhetorical, which should have been obvious, because I answered it myself,,, <smile> ...kind of in the manner of Paul in various parts of his letter to the Romans, particularly Romans 9.


<chuckles> Well yes, in an elementary way...


Sure. This is intimately related to the concept of Original Sin. Absolutely.


And I have said this, albeit in different ways, many, many times, Rich.


Sure. I'm... not sure why you feel compelled to tell me this.


He does. We are being made incorruptible even now, and one day will be. And this is because we have been born again of the Spirit and are thus in Christ, Who is the "Seed" (capitalized on purpose, of course) of God the Father. We do not make ourselves incorruptible by any stretch of the imagination, nor are we fully incorruptible at any point in this life, but rather becoming so, and ultimately will. This is what we should see in Philippians 1:6, when Paul says, "He Who began a good work in us will bring it to completion at the day of Christ."


We are of it, but not yet completely conformed to it. But this is what we are predestined for...

"...those whom (God) foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son..." (Romans 8:29)​

​

"In (Christ Jesus) we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of (God the Father) Who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:11)​

Right, but that's not the only nature we have; the "old man," as Paul calls it, is still with us in this life. Do you think you are perfect, sinless, and fully conformed to the image of Christ yet, Rich? Again, a rhetorical question, really; you are not, and neither am I. But we will be... <smile>


Do you believe God can do anything, Rich? Do you believe Jesus, when He said the following?

"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26)​

"With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God." (Mark 10:27)

​

"What is impossible with man is possible with God" (Luke 18:27)

You probably guessed; rhetorical... <chuckles>

Grace and peace to you.

I didn't mean to suggest you think I'm wrong about everything. I think we are largely on the same page. You make a lot of good points. I was just pontificating on how I see seed.

Looking at the context of Matt 19:26, Mark 10:27, and Luke 18:27, I absolutely agree that God can can save where men can not. All of those deal with getting born again. Saying all things are possible with God is not a carte blanche ticket to do whatever He wants though. It is not possible for God to lie (Titus 1:2), for example.

 

[PinSeeker]

I didn't mean to suggest you think I'm wrong about everything.

Okay, but that's not what I thought you were... suggesting... You seemed to be trying to correct me and were lecturing me in... well, not in everything you said, but most, in which case you would have been... suggesting, at least implicitly... that I was wrong on... some things... which, though veiled ~ subtle, with a hard 'b,' not a silent one <chuckles> ~ seems to be your suggestion even in this little comment here.

I think we are largely on the same page.

On the things being discussed here, yes. Largely. <smile>

I was just pontificating on how I see seed.

That's not how it came across, Rich, and you're not one to... mis-convey, for the most part. <smile> You seemed to be, at least to some extent, lecturing, which I do from time to time, too, so I'm not chastising you for that, because that would be at least a bit hypocritical. But if I perceive that, then depending on the situation, I reserve the right to... well, debate, of course, and correct and or lecture right back. Kind of in the same vein as "an eye for an eye"... <smile>

Saying all things are possible with God is not a carte blanche ticket to do whatever He wants though.

Okay, right, of course not... I'll take that as another... pontification... on your part... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

 

[Wrangler]

You are assuming that abiding equals sonship.

No. I don’t even understand how you get there from what I wrote.

Glad you used the -ing form of abide. Jesus is telling us to act In order for him to act in you. The consequences of not acting is too terrible to contemplate. The default destination for human beings is death. When Jesus decides NOT to abide, not to act, our default destination is unaltered.

 

[Wrangler]

Also, Jesus said that before the new birth was available on the day of Pentecost. That should have some bearing on the subject.

Why? Do Christ‘s words before Pentecost have no applicability or value beyond a historical record?

 

[Wrangler]

It's ABSOLUTELY about that. And about the absolute surety, the absolute unfailing-ness of God's faithfulness...

OSAS is an abdication of justice. God does have absolute faithfulness - to justice and those who are faithful to him. To say otherwise is an abomination.

 

[PinSeeker]

Glad you used the -ing form of abide. Jesus is telling us to act In order for him to act in you.

Yes, but not in the sense in which you read what he says there, how you understand it. Rich is right; you are assuming that abiding equals sonship. Actually, I would say you are inadvertently equating abiding and sonship. Or, put another way, you thinking being in Christ depends on our keeping ourselves in Christ. Which, in a certain sense is true, but as I have saying, if we have this new spirit in us given us by God ~ and the Holy Spirit ~ then we will abide in Christ. So the credit for our abiding in Christ really belongs to God, who sustains us and keeps us to the end. His strength is made perfect in our weakness (1 Corinthians 12:9). Thanks be to God, Who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:57), to Whom be the glory forever and ever.

When Jesus decides NOT to abide...

For those of us in Christ, He will not, because we will not fail to abide, because the Holy Spirit will keep us from failing to abide in Christ. It is in His strength that we find ours.

Here... maybe this will help. It really is a hard thing to understand, at least sometimes, how, God is at work in us, even in our willing and doing. As Paul tells the Philippians, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (2:12-13). The key in that verse is the word 'for,' which in many translations is actually 'because.' So, we can work out our own salvation, and even do the willing and working, so this is all of our own free will, but it is because God is at work in us so that we do it according to His good pleasure. This is very simple, but at the same time not so simple. People ask, "How do I find and do God's will for me and my life?" Well, the answer is, "Just do it." And the thing is, because you have the Spirit, you will. Think about it... <smile>

Here's another thing that comes to mind, along these very same lines: according to the Psalmist, God inhabits our praises (Psalm 22:3 ~ "But you are holy, enthroned in the praises of Israel" [ESV]). Said in another way, as believers and worshipers, God praises Himself through us, because He is in us... He, in the Holy Spirit, dwells in us... and we in that same way, in the Holy Spirit, are in Him. Yeah... think about it. <smile>

And here's some free info... <smile> Those of us who are in Christ, in the same way, are seated with and ruling with Christ, at the right hand of God... right now. Which gets us to Ephesians 2 5-8 and Revelation 20:4-6... <smile>

OSAS is an abdication of justice.

In the way you think of "OSAS," yes, but maybe you will think of it differently ~ the correct way ~ at some point. <smile>

God does have absolute faithfulness - to justice and those who are faithful to him.

I mean, I agree with you here, in a certain sense. But in another not so much. See above.

To say otherwise is an abomination.

Think what you will... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Wrangler.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Although there are many verses, Christ states the contract, ‘abide in me and I will abide in you.’

And of course the OSAS people claim this is works based salvation

Why? Do Christ‘s words before Pentecost have no applicability or value beyond a historical record?

That;s the trick satan has used to brainwash these people in to rejecting the teachings of Jesus

It's one of many heresies that came out of so called "reformed theology"

 

[Wrangler]

Or, put another way, you thinking being in Christ depends on our keeping ourselves in Christ. Which, in a certain sense is true

That’s the sense I meant it; the sense that it’s true.