Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Taken]

They just can't conceive of obeying someone because they love them. That alone speaks volumes as to their character. If they were in charge, we'd all be under tight control instead of living freely in God's love and grace. But I suppose, to them, living freely is the same as a license to sin.

No such thing as a license to Sin.
Sin IS Against God.
Only God can Forgive Sin.


A man establishing an eternal relationship with the Lord God Almighty…

Does NOT mean the man can NOT Live Freely.

It means For eternity that man will Always and Forever have a Relationship with God.

That Relationship is Grounded solely on …
That mans True Heartful Belief…

And Gods Power IN that man, to Always and Forever Sustain That Belief

Meaning: NEVER AGAIN will that man NOT Believe.

Can that man “Continue” Freely, choosing relationships with / or severing relationships with other people?
Yes.

Can that man “Continue” Freely…Choosing…
Where to Live?
Style of home, clothing, furniture, etc?
Yes

Can that man “Continue” Freely… choosing…
To travel, Study whatever, eat whatever, work (Or Not) wherever, buy whatever, sell whatever, have offspring, (or not), Aid others (or Not), Provide for his own, (or Not), steal, Lie, Cheat, etc., etc.,
Yes.

* Men ARE NEVER taught ( by Gods protocol) to BELIEVE IN Other men
OR….To WORSHIP, other men, angels, objects.

To know THEM, by their “Fruits”… IS To Observe, See… IF their “Fruits”…
Are Belief, Worship, Prayer, of “anything” Other than The Lord God.

Worship, bowing down before and / or using communication “(called) prayer”, is reserved Only For communication between a man and his Lord God.

Not news… Some religions, and /or denominations of Same “broad” religious Organizations…
Precisely Teach, Require, Commend, their members to:
Bow down before Men, Objects, Pray to Men, Objects, Pray to The bodily Dead, Pray to Angels.

A man Freely choosing to Heartfully give his bodily life unto Death To his Lord God iS a ONCE and Eternal, For Ever, For Always gesture / act.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Wrangler]

FAITH: Believing that if you abide in Christ, produce fruit, remain salty, keep God's commandments, he'll be faithful and save you.

1 John 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.​

John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

PERVERSION: Supposing there is no contract, that we'll be saved despite not abiding, not producing fruit, not remaining salty, not keeping his commandments. In short, supposing God is a rapist, who will save us against our will.

 

[mailmandan]

I wonder how many of those who don't believe in eternal security in Christ also defend works as necessary to retain salvation?

Ego and pride. The self has to be involved in securing its future even when self becomes spirit after death.

I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which remains a major red flag for me.

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

 

[Rich R]

Correct! Nothing theologically changed on Pentecost. Odd that you substitute thoughtful discussion with repeating questions with 4 question marks.
Obviously, we understand God’s plan very differently! And your question was a setup, a trap that I didn’t fall for 1 little bit.

The Scripture you quoted didn’t prove anything about the Penetecost. Like your accusation of asserting sonship, I have no idea how you connect that verse with OSAS.

Make a Blessed Day!

Here's how Pentecost is connected to incorruptible seed: Pentecost was the first time anyone was born again of incorruptible seed. About 3,000 folks got eternal life that day.

 

[Wrangler]

Here's how Pentecost is connected to incorruptible seed: Pentecost was the first time anyone was born again of incorruptible seed. About 3,000 folks got eternal life that day.

It’s truly irrelevant to the perversion of OSAS.

 

[Taken]

It’s truly irrelevant to the perversion of OSAS.

Curious-

ARE you Saved?

IF Yes, Why?

IF Yes, How many times?

IF Yes, Can you become UN-Saved?

IF Yes, How?

Thanks.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[PinSeeker]

Like saying ‘incorruptible seed’ AS IF that. means the same 5hing as it took root, produced fruit AND totally took over our entire being.

Uh, what? Do you mean "the same thing"... is "Shing" just a typo? I mean I think so...

I think the problem is you're conflating some things, Wrangler. You're not understanding the difference. Or, maybe you do, but you're not understanding that you and Rich are talking about two different things, really. Closely related, but different. He's tried to tell you that, and he's right.

So, okay. If we are born again of and by the Holy Spirit, then we have this "incorruptible seed" in us. Or, as Peter says in 2 Peter 1:4, we as born again Christians are "partakers of the divine nature," which is not to say we have it totally and absolutely of course, but that we do have it, at least in some small part, in us. We are of God, and in Christ Jesus. So, to be born again is for it to take root... and then begin to grow, so to speak, which is what Paul is saying to the Philippians when he writes, "He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the Day of Christ" (Philippians 1:6).

What you're saying here is not what I understand Rich to be saying. Nobody is saying anything happens before it happens... <chuckles>

But I will say this, that... and it's funny that you say "AS IF," because I'm about to say that here... <smile> If we are born again of the Spirit, and we thus have this "incorruptible seed" ~ which is this divine nature ~ in us that is then, though certainly not complete, but beginning to grow, it is absolutely certain that it will produce fruit ~ the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and eventually "take over our entire being"... one great day we will be just like Jesus, totally conformed to His image. That will not happen in this life, but we will progress toward it, and, when Jesus returns, will be a reality. This is absolutely certain, and because of this, it is AS IF it is already a reality, meaning we can live even now in light of that.

Again, when I say something and one way could be wrong, I meant the other way. LOL

Hmmmm.... <smile>

Seriously, it’s funny how you assert how others are right but only from a certain POV.

It's true. If you mean "from a certain POV" in the same way as "in a certain sense." I mean, there's a whole lot of things we can talk about, Christian or not, in different senses, and in the same way as what we are talking about here can be correct in one sense but incorrect in another.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Why don't you just answer all the questions in a way that would be palatable. I have no idea how do it.

Ah. LOL!!! Frustration. I get it. But, um... [falsetto voice] yes you doooooo... [end falsetto voice] <smile> But you don't want to, don't want to even give it a try. Well, fair enough. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

FAITH: Believing that if you abide in Christ, produce fruit, remain salty, keep God's commandments, he'll be faithful and save you.

Hmmm... The Bible ~ the writer of Hebrews... and really God, as it is His Word, so He is the real Author ~ defines 'faith' for us, so no need to manufacture our own definition:

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).

Assurance of anything we hope for and/or do not see has to come from outside of us, Wrangler. If we give ourselves assurance of anything merely hoped for and/or not seen, it is no assurance at all, but merely wishful thinking. This assurance, Wranglier, is not... self-manufactured; it can only come from God. And through it, by God's grace, is how we are born again and saved (Ephesians 2).

1 John 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.​

John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

Yeah, so, keeping His commandments, confessing and repenting of our sins (1 John), obeying Him, doing His will, producing the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5)... this is how we know we are forgiving and cleansed of all our sin and unrighteousness ~ that we are righteous because we are in Christ, and it's His absolute righteousness that we are credited with~ and that we are truly His sheep, given to Him by the Father, and hearing His voice and following Him (John 10) and abiding in Him (John 15)...

"...you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of Him" (1 John 2:29)​

These things are the outward evidence ~ to ourselves as well as to others ~ of what God has made a reality in us. You're right that it has not come to full fruition yet, but it certainly will; "...the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29).

PERVERSION: Supposing there is no contract, that we'll be saved despite not abiding, not producing fruit, not remaining salty, not keeping his commandments. In short, supposing God is a rapist, who will save us against our will.

We can do nothing to deserve what God has given us, either initially or otherwise. But again, because of what God has given us ~ and has done and is still doing in us ~ we will, freely and willingly, do these things. Yet again, in Paul's words to the Philippians (2:13), we (freely, of course; we have been set free to do these things ~ Romans 8:2) will and work for God's good pleasure because He, by the power of the Holy Spirit, began a good work in us, and is at work in us.

So again, if you want to know God's will, then... just do it. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

Grace and peace to you, Wrangler.

 

[Wrangler]

Curious-

ARE you Saved?

IF Yes, Why?

Curious- why do you make this personal?

 

[Wrangler]

So, okay. If we are born again of and by the Holy Spirit, then we have this "incorruptible seed" in us.

Do you grasp the difference between a seed and the fruit is may or may not bear? It's obvious what Jesus was referring to when he spoke about branches that bear no fruit will be burned in the fire. You are choosing to be willfully ignorant.

 

[Wrangler]

Yeah, so, keeping His commandments, confessing and repenting of our sins (1 John), obeying Him, doing His will, producing the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5)

You are deliberately conflating the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians to the conditional nature of our salvation in 1 John. "IF" means what? Nothing to the OSAS crowd.

 

[Rich R]

It’s truly irrelevant to the perversion of OSAS.

I wonder how you define "incorruptible" and "eternal"

 

[Button]

I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which remains a major red flag for me.

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

AMEN!
Those waving those red flags will regret it.

We're suppose to lead people to the light of Christ. Not deny in underhanded ways that the light is real.

We can all have opinions about the Bible passages we share. Of course.

However,when some intend to deny the foundation of the Gospel and insist it isn't an eternal Salvific Covenant but something we labor to aquire and retain,they're lying.
Lying to forum members is bad enough.

Lying about the mission and purpose of Jesus,his life and sacrifice,is underhanded. And evil.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

His enemies call him a liar. Yet again.

His enemies are the ones who don't accept ALL the Lord teaches in His Word and instead choose to only believe the happy verse while ignoring the warnings God has place din His Word that specifically tell us Christians can in fact lose their salvation.

These people are the modern day version of the pharisees and sadducees who twist God's Word, add to, and take away from God's word in their ongoing efforts to deceive others which is what their father the devil is leading them to do. The OSAS people are the tares Jesus warned us about, the children of satan sent by the devil to attempt to deceived the true children of God in to walking in heresy departing from the Living God.

They insist eternal salvation is a license to sin.

Funny how those that follow OSAS go around proudly proclaiming they are sinners.

And it's funny how the so called "christians" we see today going around using foul language, smoking weed, getting drunk, being gay, having sex outside of marriage, etc etc are always the ones claiming OSAS doctrine is what they believe and follow.

Of course it is, because they have been taught that "it's not possible to lose salvation" and so they believe they can continue living in sin because the false OSAS teachers teach that it matters not whether they live in sin or not and if they do they falsely claim "it's not possible to lose salvation"

His teachings are not meant for them to understand.

Another false claim. The OSAS people are teaching doctrine that comes from a false "jesus" as they teach a "different gospel" than what the Lord teaches so they are exactly backwards which is another way we know the OSAS people of being led by devils because satan always does things opposite of the Lord since he and his tares are in opposition to the Lord.

Which is why they insist Salvation can be lost.

Imagine living like that.

The OSAS people are ignorant of what God's Word teaches so they are not only imagining living like that, they are actually living like that

I wonder how many of those who don't believe in eternal security in Christ also defend works as necessary to retain salvation?

Eternal security only applies to those who abide in Christ that endure to the end.

OSAS people claim Christians don't have to abide in Christ and they are free to reject the leading of the Holy Spirit and are free to live in rebellion towards the Lord and still be saved

OSAS people are like their boy Martin Luther who rejects the Book of James which very clearly tells us that faith without corresponding action is dead, is not faith that brings salvation

All the OSAS people have is wishful thinking, not salvation

Like saying ‘incorruptible seed’ AS IF that. means the same 5hing as it took root, produced fruit AND totally took over our entire being.

Jesus teaches God's Word (the ‘incorruptible seed’) can in fact be choked out of a person's life in Mark 4 causing them to become unfruitful.

Of course the OSAS people claim Jesus was LYING in Mark chapter 4

Mark 4:13-20
And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? The sower soweth the word. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

Here we see Jesus telling us the 5 things the devil uses to choke the Word and cause it to be unfruitful... IF these things are allowed to ENTER IN which we have the responsibility to not allow... see John 14:23 where Jesus says "If a man love me, he will keep my words" as in NOT allow it to be choked out of us.

The 5 things are... affliction, persecution, cares of this world, deceitfulness of riches, and lusts of other things

Jesus said God’s Kingdom works on the seedtime and harvest principle

Mark 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;

No such thing as a license to Sin.

But the OSAS people claim a person is still saved even if they live in sin.

They deceive many with their fake gospel

Curious- why do you make this personal?

They cannot defend their false doctrine from scripture so they have to come at you some other way

Those waving those red flags will regret it.

Those ignoring God's warnings to Christians He has placed in His Word will regret it.

They are literally claiming somethings God says in His Word are lies!

However,when some intend to deny the foundation of the Gospel

The OSAS people have been deceived and cannot know foundation of the real Gospel because their minds have been blinded to follow the fake "security in sin" gospel the devil deceived them with.

Lying about the mission and purpose of Jesus,his life and sacrifice,is underhanded. And evil.

Well, the cut it out and REPENT!

 

[Wrangler]

I wonder how you define "incorruptible" and "eternal"

I wonder how you define “IF you follow Gods commands you will be saved.”

 

[Rich R]

I wonder how you define “IF you follow Gods commands you will be saved.”

OK. I'll go first. I define, "IF you follow Gods commands you will be saved.” as man's idea, not God's. God is not unaware of man's complete inability to obey His commands. That's why he came up with the idea of "grace."

So, though you are assuredly against my definition, I at least gave it for you.

Now it's your turn; how do you define "incorruptible" and "eternal?"

 

[Taken]

Curious- why do you make this personal?

God made Salvation Personal.

God gave us Communication skills to discover others Standing.

You have communicated a Standing you are Against.

Curious What your Standing is For.

 

[PinSeeker]

Do you grasp the difference between a seed and the fruit is may or may not bear?

Sure I do. But you're still either completely missing or completely, intentionally ignoring the point I made (although it wasn't really me, it was... God's Word. Anyway, probably both (missing and ignoring the point I made), because one begets the other.

It's obvious what Jesus was referring to when he spoke about branches that bear no fruit will be burned in the fire.

Sure. Absolutely. But again. as I said, you're still either completely missing or completely, intentionally ignoring the point I made... probably both, because one begets the other.

You are choosing to be willfully ignorant.

So, following from above, obviously not, even by your own standards, because I'm agreeing with you, but again... well, see above. <smile>

You are deliberately conflating the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians to the conditional nature of our salvation in 1 John. "IF" means what? Nothing to the OSAS crowd.

Absolutely not. I mean, what you're saying, or at least what your were saying before, is that I'm ignoring the conditional nature of our salvation, but I absolutely am not. What you're either missing or ignoring or both is why we... those of us who are born again by the Holy Spirit... will ~ will ~ meet those conditions. To God be the glory.

Grace and peace to you

 

[PinSeeker]

God is not unaware of man's complete inability to obey His commands. That's why he came up with the idea of "grace."

I'm trackin' right with ya here, Rich, but it might be a good idea to briefly and succinctly explain to Wrangler what you mean by "complete inability," because that can be understood in two starkly different ways. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.