One big reason why I will never abandon premillennialism

[rockytopva]

One major reason why I will never abandon premillennialism...

1. I don't know!

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44

 

[ewq1938]

One major reason why I will never abandon premillennialism...

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

https://www.blueletterbible .org/kjv/rev/19/15/t_conc_1186015

https://biblehub .com/interlinear/revelation/19-15.htm

(remove the spaces before .com and .org in the two links)


Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.


Amillennialism wouldn't even exist if the first person to teach it bothered to check the verb tenses in Revelation 19.


A second witness to this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers. They will be given power over the mortal unsaved nations after Christ has returned not before it.

 

[FaithWillDo]

One major reason why I will never abandon premillennialism...

1. I don't know!

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44

Dear rockytopva,

Have you ever truly considered what these verses below teach concerning the second coming of Christ?

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

This time for the second coming of Christ was "at hand" when John received the vision and John was even told that the book was not sealed. Also, the Elect will be blessed because they will keep the sayings of the prophecy. Christ even says that "I come quickly". Finally, the book says this about Christ's second coming: "which is, and which was and which is to come" at least four times in its pages so that phrase should not be taken lightly.

How do people account for these statements if they believe that Christ's second coming is a one-time world event that happens at the literal end of this age? Can they be correct in light of what these verses teach?

The answer is that they can't account for what these verses teach so they basically ignore them or change (in their own mind) what they say.

Do you know how to account for the teachings of those verses?

When a person can account for these verses, they will have a much better understanding of what Christ meant when He said "for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh".

Joe

 

[rockytopva]

@FaithWillDo ... Spirituality.... So much of it lies in...

1. Getting a good image of the Lord Jesus Christ
2. Anticipating him coming quickly.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. - 1 John 3

 

[WPM]

@FaithWillDo ... Spirituality.... So much of it lies in...

1. Getting a good image of the Lord Jesus Christ
2. Anticipating him coming quickly.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. - 1 John 3

And which redeemed Amil does not believe this? You are talking as if Amils do not believe in a future second coming.

 

[WPM]

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

https://www.blueletterbible .org/kjv/rev/19/15/t_conc_1186015

https://biblehub .com/interlinear/revelation/19-15.htm

(remove the spaces before .com and .org in the two links)


Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.


Amillennialism wouldn't even exist if the first person to teach it bothered to check the verb tenses in Revelation 19.


A second witness to this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers. They will be given power over the mortal unsaved nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Amils believe that Rev 19 is a record of the one and only future climactic return of Christ. What you miss is that all the wicked are destroyed in that passage, like the rest of Scripture, thus forbidding your doctrine. Premils ignore that because acknowledging it would force them to reject Premil.

There is nowhere that teaches that Christ is coming back to this earth to reign for a thousand years. The word poimaino in Rev 19, which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have attacked His sheep. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

A plain straightforward literal reading of Revelation 19 forbids Premil. It also confirms that we are looking at a series of parallels describing the same intra-Advent period - as elsewhere in Scripture. Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

A plain reading of the passage before us reveals that Christis coming back with wrath to execute judgment and destroy all those left behind. He is not going to reward men for their rebellion by leading them unto the glorified new earth. Neither is Christ coming to engage in some ill-fated war against evil for a thousand years – that is not remotely in the text. The King of kings and Lord of lords will not have to fight for victory. He already won that decisively at the cross.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Let us be clear: Heis coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

If you take this out of the Premil armory there is nothing left. The whole Premil doctrine hangs upon a thin frayed thread. It enjoys no other support in Scripture. It solely and exclusively depends on the correlation and chronology of the Revelation 19-20, which clearly doesn't exist.

 

[FaithWillDo]

@FaithWillDo ... Spirituality.... So much of it lies in...

1. Getting a good image of the Lord Jesus Christ
2. Anticipating him coming quickly.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. - 1 John 3

Dear rockytopva,
The second coming of Christ occurs without observation because it happens "within" a person. When Christ comes to each of His Elect, He will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit and heal their spiritual blindness. This is their moment of salvation. Only then will they be able to "see Him as He is" (Mark 8:21-25).

Christ comes quickly to His Elect because He must come to each of them before they physically die. When Christ comes to them, He brings them salvation:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Because Christ will "come again" to each of His Elect before they die, the second coming has to be a reoccurring event (is, was and will be coming).

And as you have pointed out, Christ comes to His Elect at a time when they do not expect Him to come. One of the reasons this is true is because the Elect believer will be in a carnally minded condition prior to His coming. In that carnal condition, they can only understand scripture in a carnal way. As a result, they expect Christ's coming to be a visible outward coming that the whole world can witness. They have forgotten that the Kingdom of Heaven (Christ) comes without observation and that the time for Christ to come was already "at hand" (happening now) when John received the vision.

Joe

 

[rockytopva]

The old timers in my Pentecostal Holiness church taught the rapture of the church as something imminent, as can occur any day, and discipled me a teenager to do the same. At the end of that summer we had a good revival in which the Lord seemed there in a mighty way. On reading the book, Run Baby Run, by Nikki Cruise, I felt a voice telling me to put the book down. I paused, and then continued again to read. The voice said again, Put the book down. I slept in my Grandmothers living room on an old fold away cot by the open living room door. The Katydids seemed to be singing very loud that night. There in my Grandmothers clean linens I heard the Spirit speak again, "Where is all the stress, worry and hatred?" In which, upon examining my heart, there was nothing there but pure beauty. I thought to myself. "Oh my! I got exactly what those people got!" I would spend the rest of the summer rejoicing with the people and in revival. In the words of GC Rankin…

“As I sat there that morning listening to the earnest exhortation of the good man my tears ceased, my distress left me, light broke in upon my mind, my heart grew joyous, and before I knew just what I was doing I was going all around shaking hands with everybody, and my confusion and darkness disappeared and a great burden rolled off my spirit. I felt exactly like I did when I was a little boy around my mother's knee when she told of Jesus and God and Heaven. It made my heart thrill then, and the same old experience returned to me in that old country Church that beautiful September morning down in old North Georgia.

I at once gave my name to the preacher for membership in the Church, and the following Sunday morning, along with many others, he received me into full membership in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South. It was one of the most delightful days in my recollection. It was the third Sunday in September, 1866, and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life.” - The Life of George Clark Rankin

So... We had the rapture of the church wrong all along. But... Living under the teaching caused me to experience Christ in a mighty way as a teenager and I plan on living my life out under the same thinking.

 

[rockytopva]

Again... Not knowing the times and the seasons...

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. - Acts 1

And appreciating date pickers such as Isaac Newton who takes a stab at it anyway, and then acknowledging the possibilities of being in error...

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half." - Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060. It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

It is my estimation that Isaac Newton was the closest with a margin of error around 30 years. So then... Dates from 2030 AD to 2090 AD would be incredibly close. Noting that a thousand years with the Lord is as a day...

1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. - 2 Peter 3

 

[rebuilder 454]

The old timers in my Pentecostal Holiness church taught the rapture of the church as something imminent, as can occur any day, and discipled me a teenager to do the same. At the end of that summer we had a good revival in which the Lord seemed there in a mighty way. On reading the book, Run Baby Run, by Nikki Cruise, I felt a voice telling me to put the book down. I paused, and then continued again to read. The voice said again, Put the book down. I slept in my Grandmothers living room on an old fold away cot by the open living room door. The Katydids seemed to be singing very loud that night. There in my Grandmothers clean linens I heard the Spirit speak again, "Where is all the stress, worry and hatred?" In which, upon examining my heart, there was nothing there but pure beauty. I thought to myself. "Oh my! I got exactly what those people got!" I would spend the rest of the summer rejoicing with the people and in revival. In the words of GC Rankin…

“As I sat there that morning listening to the earnest exhortation of the good man my tears ceased, my distress left me, light broke in upon my mind, my heart grew joyous, and before I knew just what I was doing I was going all around shaking hands with everybody, and my confusion and darkness disappeared and a great burden rolled off my spirit. I felt exactly like I did when I was a little boy around my mother's knee when she told of Jesus and God and Heaven. It made my heart thrill then, and the same old experience returned to me in that old country Church that beautiful September morning down in old North Georgia.

I at once gave my name to the preacher for membership in the Church, and the following Sunday morning, along with many others, he received me into full membership in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South. It was one of the most delightful days in my recollection. It was the third Sunday in September, 1866, and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life.” - The Life of George Clark Rankin

So... We had the rapture of the church wrong all along. But... Living under the teaching caused me to experience Christ in a mighty way as a teenager and I plan on living my life out under the same thinking.

They had discernment. They were able to distinguish literal meaning from spiritual.
You are spiritualizing an actual event.
They have it right.

 

[FaithWillDo]

There is nowhere that teaches that Christ is coming back to this earth to reign for a thousand years. The word poimaino in Rev 19, which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.

Dear WPM,

You said:
There is nowhere that teaches that Christ is coming back to this earth to reign for a thousand years. The word poimaino in Rev 19, which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.

I agree with you that Christ will not literally reign for a thousand years over the earth, however, most people will point out this verse to say that our understanding is not true:

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

To understand the book of Revelation, one must remember that the book was "signified" to John through a vision. None of the events are physical outward events as most believe - they are spiritual events which occur within a person. The book is presented with spiritual symbols which carry meanings that are different from what man's wisdom teaches (1Cor 2:13). To understand the meanings of those symbols, we must "compare spiritual things (words) with spiritual". The symbol "thousand years" does not mean a specific amount of time as man's wisdom teaches.

Below, Peter gives us the clue we need to understand what it really means:

2Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Peter says that a thousand years is like a "day". Peter then goes on in the rest of chapter 3 to describe the spiritual events that occur during the Day of the Lord. The "day" the thousand years is "like" is the Day of the Lord.

Also, the number 1,000 is a symbol of its own. It is understood as 10 x 10 x 10. The number 10 is a symbol for completeness and the number 3 is a symbol for a spiritual process. Since Peter ties the symbol "thousand years" to the Day of the Lord, we can know that it means the complete spiritual process of judgment.

However, there is still more to know about the meaning of the thousand years.

Rev 20:6 ties the thousand years symbol to the Elect and says that they will reign with Christ for a thousand years (not literal time).

These two verses apply:

2Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev 20:1-4 also applies to the Elect's reign with Christ which was just presented in the last half of chapter 19. When that reign with Christ is finished, verse 5 calls what just happened "the First Resurrection".

Now for the full picture: The events in Chapter 19 are teaching what happens when an Elect believer is "converted". Conversion includes the second coming of Christ when He returns for His bride (who was espoused to Christ when Christ gave them the Early Rain of the Spirit). When Christ returns, Christ will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them. This will give the believer (who has been waiting for the Bridegroom's return) a new birth as a child of God. The child of God is symbolized as the wife (Bride) of Christ. Next during the conversion process, the wife will be fed the truth of God at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (now that the believer's spiritual blindness has been healed). After the believer has received a sufficient knowledge of the truth, judgment will fall on the "chaff" within them and remove & burn it (Mat 24:40-41, Rev 19:20). The "chaff" is what has caused the believer to be spiritually carnal and sinful. After that judgment is complete, the believer will be converted and will have experienced the First Resurrection which includes the thousand years reign. This is the moment of salvation for an Elect person and is what the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost.

Important note: To stop the Elect from experiencing wrath during their time of judgment, the Elect are "born again" prior to their judgment commencing (Mat 24:15-16, story of Lot). In fact, they (as the wife, child of God) will reign with Christ over their own judgment (called a thousand years and is "like the Day of the Lord). In contrast to this judgment is the judgment of the "lost" in the final age. Since the "lost" of the final age are not "born again" prior to their judgment commencing, they will experience the wrath of Christ during it.

The Elect are also blessed to not only reign with Christ during their own judgment, they are blessed to reign with Christ over the judgment of the "lost" in the final age. In other words, the thousand years they experience is "twice told":

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

During both times of judgment, the Elect will see "no good" within those who are being judged (the Old Man/child of the Devil) and from that judgment, they (Old Man/child of the Devil) will be cast into the Lake of Fire (symbol for destruction from judgment).

From what I presented above, can you now understand the true meaning of the thousand years reign?

Joe